So God had no right to write His New Will and Testament?
Thankfully, he wasn't listening to you.
The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist
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Thankfully, he wasn't listening to you.
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Answer me this . . . why? Why would God cease Israel from being a nation?
Much love!
That's what I keep saying . . . If God didn't fulfill His promises to Israel, why would we think He will fulfill His promises to us? God is true, men are the liars!
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I could be wrong. But most of them believe our salvation is not eternal. but conditional.. so it fits the way they think, that if we turn, God will pass on us also..
Eternally Grateful
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Truth7t7
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"Promised Land Inheritence" Will Be Fulfilled In The New Heaven, And Earth
The Eternal Kingdom is seen in Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 regarding the division of land for inheritance in the "New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem"
"The Eternal Kingdom, In The New Heaven And Earth" Where The New Jerusalem, And The River/Tree Of Life Are Present
Revelation 22:1-2KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Ezekiel 47:12-14KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
13 Thus saith the Lord God; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
"The Eternal New Jerusalem"
Ezekiel 48:29-35KJV
29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord God.
30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
"The Eternal New Jerusalem"
Revelation 21:10-12KJV
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Truth7t7
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You stop short and disregard the context "Why"?
The scripture is speaking of the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, not this earth as you falsely suggest
The valley of the dead bodies is after the day of the Lord takes place
Jeremiah 31:38-40KJV
38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
You open your post accusatory - why?
If you have something to say, just say it. No need to be presumptive and personally false.
Much love!
Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
So long as the sun and moon continue, so will the nation of Israel.
Much love!
Truth7t7
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Please explain your interpretation of "Those Ordinances" in Jeremiah 31:36, waiting?
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
This refers to,
Genesis 1:14-19 KJV
14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18) And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19) And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
This is the natural order of the sun and moon as they rise and set day by day.
This part, "which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar", I see this identifying YHWH as not only the Creator, but also their Deliverer. Though depending on how you interpret it, I could see it referring to the ocean tides, caused by the sun and moon.
Much love!
Leviticus 26 is part of the ceremonial law that is no longer in effect. There is no "question." Yet again, the Israel of God was never a nation-state, and never will be. At any given time, it always is what God established it ~ and is even now continuing to build it, and will bring it to its completion ~ to be.
Right, but this is just after He says ~ and this is his context ~ a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. Yes, verse 29 is easy to understand; of course the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, the are given by God Himself and He will never go back on anything He has given. I'm sure we agree on that. But verse 28 is the key. The unbelief of Israel ~ not God's Israel, but at least some of those directly descended from Israel, by the letter only but not of God, the part of Israel now hardened and remaining in unbelief ~ has benefited the Gentiles, i.e., this is the period of history in which Gentiles are being saved... grafted into and made part of God's Israel and thus true Jews. And yes, God's electing promise given to their forefathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be fulfilled in the future, but again, on a far greater scale than you imagine.
Agree; never insinuated such thought...
And. Not or. :)
Yes, that's what I just said.
Ethnicities are of man, not of God. He made everyone in His image, Eternally Grateful.
,
No, as he told Abraham when He made the promise, Eternally Grateful, "I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:3) And yet again, as Paul says, "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... but a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." What you're saying here is directly opposed to what Moses and Paul are saying in Genesis 12 and Romans 2, respectively.
That's actually exactly what I'm saying, Eternally Grateful, but not just those of Jewish ethnicity, but to true Jews, those who have been made part of God's Israel, which includes Gentiles, people from every tongue, tribe, and nation. This the the Israel He is building, heart by heart, and it cannot be of man but of God Himself. As Jesus says, with man this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.
Grace and peace to you.
Oh, my.
I know this was to Covenantee, but neither he nor I have ever insinuated such a thing... quite the opposite, actually. What you seem to refuse to see is the greater nature of His eternal promises. This lesser/greater concept is seen over and over and over and over again throughout Scripture. The lesser points to the greater, and the greater is inclusive of the lesser.
With regard to the law, this is the crux of all Jesus's "but I tell you" statements, two examples being 1.) what He says about adultery (it is not merely the outward act, but any man who looks at another man's wife with lust has already committed adultery in his heart), and 2.) what He says about murder (it is not just the outward act but even insulting a brother or saying to him, "you fool!"
Particular to this conversation, the lesser land given to lesser Israel is the small tract of land located on the eastern end of the Mediterranean See, but the greater land promised to Greater Israel (all those in Christ, regardless of ethnicity) is the whole earth.
LOL! I guess that's where we've got to leave it... :)
Right back atcha, EG. I mean, I/we wouldn't actually state it in such an all-encompassing way ~ "understand the Bible"... ugh ~ but yeah. My goodness. It's just not that hard... :)
Grace and peace to you.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Lev 6 is still in effect.. It is not done away with..
Yes, And when the fullness of these gentiles has come in. Then the redeemer will come and all israel will be saved
All isreal consists of those who currently believe and those who will repent in the end..
It has nothing to do with any gentile.. many of them will be saved too. But most of them will be lost.. as destroyed by God at his return
God called out Israel.
He called them by name, and he called them by nationality
God called the rest nations or gentiles
To say God did not call out a nation is wrong
You forgot a few parts
Gen 15:
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
Gen 17: And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
sorry, But when you say God is done with Israel and the promises he made to them when he called them out. You do exactly that
Yes, But the greater promise to israel does not negate the smaller. Even Abraham desired the greater more than the smallet. Yet the smaller was still promised to him, he was buried in it
That was not to you. It was to someone who can not talk without attacking someone. Who has to put everything under a darby scofield lens, and who will not listen to anythign else anyone says,
Wait... Leviticus 6? Or Leviticus 26, which you specified before? Regardless, the civil and ceremonial law is in effect no longer, as the writer of Hebrews is very clear on in chapter 7 of that letter:
"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well... For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:11-19)
Since the coming of Christ Jesus. Only the moral law remains. Jesus said Himself that the law hangs on two commandments, loving God (with all your heart, mind, and strength) and loving your neighbor (everyone else).
Is this not what I have said many times? It is...
Ohhhhh yes... it does... :)
Right, so, you don't mean to be, certainly, but you're contradicting the first part of this sentence you wrote (above) with this second part. Quite incredible.
Israel was not a nation-state ~ a nationality in that sense ~ until 1948. But yes, way back and even now, he calls ethnic Jews and makes them a part of His Israel.
Hmmm... well there's a general call to repent and believe, sure. This is the outward call, and it goes out to everyone. But there's an inward call issued by God via His Holy Spirit, and this is issued only to His elect and does not fail to save ~ to make the individual receiving this call part of His Israel, the Israel of God.
Not what I'm saying... :)
LOL! No... <SIGH>
I never said God is done with Israel, Eternally Grateful. Never. So no, I don't in any way do what you think I'm doing. And I keep saying that, and you keep foisting it on me. It's astounding.
Of course not; I agree! Holy moly. But the smaller points to the greater; it is the lesser manifestation of the greater. Wow.
Right... I acknowledged that before... but it was worth speaking to.
I see Covenantee as asking you pointed ~ and what should be leading ~ questions. But not attacking. But I can understand feeling like you are being attacked.
Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.
No, in fact, not answered:
God's Prophetic Program, Under covenants and law, gospel of the kingdom (past/future)
(1) Concerns a kingdom: a political organization = ( Earthly ) "Nation Of Israel!"
(Daniel_2:44; Matthew_6:10 KJB!)
+
Peter wrote to whom?:
1Pe 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers ( Jews? ) scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia...the...elect" ↑ 'Holy Nation Of Israel' ↑
( compare Galatians 2:6-9 = Peter, THE apostle "to the circumcision" = ↑ Jews! )
+
compare James' prophetic letter to "the Twelve tribes [ nation? ] of Israel" ( 1:1 )
Thus, no "church, the body Of Christ" that 'Peter Nor James wrote to the True Jews,'
in earthly prophecy, However, let's Compare, and:
Rightly Divide (2 Timothy 2:15) this From “Things That DIFFER!” (online):
The Heavenly Mystery (Romans - Philemon)!:
(1) Concerns A Body, HIS Church; a Living Organism = "The Body Of Christ!!"
(1_Corinthians_12:12, 27; Ephesians_4:12-16 KJB!)
+
Paul, THE Grace apostle To "the heathen, the UNcircumcision" (Gal 2:6-9), wrote to whom?
Individual "members of The Body Of Christ," The "One New man" (Eph 2:15):
Eph_5:30 "For we are members of His Body, of His Flesh, And of His Bones."
Seated Where?:
Eph_1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our LORD Jesus Christ, Who hath
blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:" (cp 2:6)
Called what?:I have never found The 'Holy Nation Of Israel's' nomenclature of 'priests, sheep, Nor nation'
In Paul's letters (Romans - Philemon), for the Body Of Christ, Today, Under Grace, but
have found:
{adopted, dear} children of {the Living God, light, the day, Abraham, promise}, believers, sons {of God}, daughters, brothers, sisters, brethren {beloved, carnal, faithful, and spiritual}, babes In Christ, {young, aged} men/women, {dearly} beloved {of The LORD}, members {in particular, one of another},
servants {of Christ}, saints, ministers, fellowlabourers, workers, co-labourers {with God}, elect of God, followers of God, heirs/joint-heirs, the temple {of God}, comforters, walkers, runners, kissers, greeters, saluters, sufferers, groaners, prayer partners, rejoicers, warriors, wrestlers, And, ambassadors of Christ!
Thus, the 'straw man' set up to teach that the Body of Christ 'members' are "the [ earthly ] 'true
Jews,' the holy nation of Israel" falls with Christ's Words, From Heaven To our Grace apostle,
Paul! Not once, but TWICE!!:
Gal_3:28 "There is Neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
+"Where there is Neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision,
Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col_3:11)
Further study of 'several Important Biblical Facts':
When Did The Body Of Christ Begin?
Amen.
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"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.'”
[John 18:36]
"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord."
[Ephesians 2:13-21]
"...the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."
[Galatians 3:24-29]
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood..." (vv1-2) "...As you come to Him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ... But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."
[1 Peter 2:5-9]
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
[Hebrews 1:1-2]
Grace and peace to all!
[John 18:36]
"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord."
[Ephesians 2:13-21]
"...the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."
[Galatians 3:24-29]
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood..." (vv1-2) "...As you come to Him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ... But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy."
[1 Peter 2:5-9]
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
[Hebrews 1:1-2]
Grace and peace to all!
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Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Precisely nothing to do with earthly Israel.
Christ came in the days of the Roman empire and established His Kingdom. Matthew 3:1-2; 4:17; 4:23; 9:35; 12:28; Luke 8:1; 9:2,11; 10:9; 11:20; 12:32; 17:20-21; 22:29.
Matthew 6:10 Greek
2064 [e]
Elthetō
Ἐλθέτω*
Come
V-AMA-3S
Verb-Aorist Imperative Active-3rd Person Singular
Aorist = Past tense
The Kingdom had already come, in the Person of, and established by, Christ Himself.
1 Peter 1:1 Greek
3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP
"in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"
Peter wrote to the Christians, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, of the Churches in the referenced regions.
1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
The metaphors in 1 Peter 2:5 are unique to the Church; and the "ye's" are the same, i.e. the Church, in both verses; and the holy nation is therefore also the Church. There is no "nation of Israel" in the verses.
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