The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[marks]

From the Greek:

3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP

" in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

Let's look,


"expatriates of dispersion" would be the literal translation. "Diasporas" where we get the transliterated Diaspora. I think "expatriates" is a good understanding of "parepidemois", foreigners who live in alongside the residents of another land. This can give you some info on the Diaspora:

Diaspora | Definition, History, & Facts | Britannica

Diaspora, the dispersion of Jews among the Gentiles after the Babylonian Exile or the aggregate of Jewish communities scattered ‘in exile’ outside Palestine or present-day Israel. The term carries religious, philosophical, political, and eschatological connotations.

www.britannica.com

So I'm looking at this, it's saying Peter addressed his letter to those who have been scattered to live alongside foreigners. Not that these are the gentile inhabitants of those lands. Though to be sure we learn and receive from this part of the Bible as we do all the rest. But lets not obscure who it was addressed to. And let's not obscure the parts that align with what God said previously to that same people.

And let's not appropriate it for someone to whom it was not written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

" in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

Thayer, but you left off the rest of what he said.

παρεπίδημος, παρεπιδημον (see ἐπιδημέω), properly, "one who comes from a foreign country into a city or land to reside there by the side of the natives; hence, stranger; sojourning in a strange place, a foreigner" (Polybius 32, 22, 4; Athen. 5, p. 196 a.); in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1; joined with πάροικοι,

He asserts it can be used metaphorically, I wouldn't argue with that.

In this instance Peter names the certain cities he has in mind where they are living, so I'm thinking in this address it is not metaphorical.

I love the Bible!!! Nothing is unanswered!!! Well, almost, anyway!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Knowledgeable Christians know what it means.

I think this is what we are determining, isn't it?

;)

Much love!

 

[marks]

Explain how spiritual discernment (1 Corinthians 2:14) is part of your hermeneutic.

You'll never see the real meaning of Scripture until the Holy Spirit reveals it to you. Once you see it, you'll wonder how you ever missed it, it was right there all along. We read plain words and never understand them. Then the Holy Spirit gives us understanding, and we read those plain words, and receive them.

You see . . . the Holy Spirit will NEVER in His revelation to you EVER contradict anything written in God's Holy Word. So there will not be any part that says this, but actually means that. It says this, but people don't see it, so they figure it's that.

I would describe this as the failure to appreciate the full significance of each word, each saying, for what it says. When we discount any part, we are in trouble! And it's not like we do that intentionally, only, we can't see it any other way, and don't know what else to do!

But when the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and our minds and our hearts to His Word, then we see the full truth of what He said.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but this is what it feels like Marks is reacting so negatively toward; he think's you're excluding them.

Care to elaborate?

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

No, in fact, I'm not making dispensational arguments.

Okay, but you are, so you don't realize it.

I'm making arguments based on the sayings of these passages.

Right, dispensational ones. :) If you'd like me to say, rather, "You're making the same arguments based on these passages that a dispensationalist would make," well, then fine, there you go. :)

If anything, you are saying that the current dispensation is so completely different from the previous...

No, that's actually what you are saying. :)

...that nothing from the previous remains, effectively wiping out the entire OT except as an history book.

Yeah, no. :)

I'm asserting that in fact these prophecies are to be believed.

And in saying that, Marks, you're insinuating that I and/or Covenantee don't, which is ridiculous.

So my argument is from the Grammatical/Historical Hermenuetic, and the Reliability of Scripture.

So you think... :) All dispensationalists and others who swim in the same streams of thought as they, well intentioned though they surely are, think the same.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

Ah. Well, what I'm saying, really, Marks ~ and now I'll say it outright ~ is that you seem to have a wrong idea who Israel is... who it includes,

Let's move from OT prophecy to NT prophecy. I'm going to post a passage, I feel fairly certain that you will reject it's plain saying, please let me know if I'm right.

Revelation 7:1-8 KJV
1) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Do you believe this passage is accurate in the simplicity in which it speaks?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay, but you are, so you don't realize it.

Except I'm not in fact. If anything, you are asserting that the current dispensation has obviated or voided or altered the terms of the previous dispensation in at least this particular regard.

So I'm making an argument the these OT prophecies are reliable without regard to what our present dispensation is, while your argument (@covenantee ?) is that the present dispensation renders them unreliable in what they say on their face.

So it seems the opposite to me.

And in saying that, Marks, you're insinuating that I and/or Covenantee don't, which is ridiculous.

Is this what you believe will happen? Or no?

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Will this happen? Will God bring this very thing to pass? I say, Yes, Absolutely!

So you think... :) All dispensationalists and others who swim in the same streams of thought as they, well intentioned though they surely are, think the same.

Rather than making vague and mildly disparaging claims, actually show how you think this is so. Are you familiar with the Chicago Statement of Hermenuetics? I think that's pretty good.

The Chicago Statement On Biblical Hermeneutics

Written by J.I. Packer Summit I of the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy took place in Chicago on October 26-28, 1978 for the purpose of affirming afresh the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, making clear the understanding of it and warning against its denial.

www.alliancenet.org

What makes my argument as I'm describing it, is that I'm pointing to the normal use of the language in the day it was used. And I'm affirming my belief in it's veracity.

I read it, and I believe what I read, the very things that are said. It's not code, it's communication.

Acts 1:6 KJV
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

The disciples understood. Is it too hard for us?

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

He did not promise to preserve specific individuals for the most part. He promised, and prophesied, the preservation of the nation.

Much love!

Unto to those who follow HIM . We can read many a time
when GOD told the people that he had given them the land , TIME TO CLEAR OUT .
And i think folks forget this . God has cleansed the land before .
In the end Heavenly Jerusalem will descend and all not in the lambs book of life wont be in it or the land it descends
upon in the new heavens and new earth .
Too many are looking for a physical Kingdom . God gave promises unto the peoples ,
but the promises are for those who HEED HIM , not for those who disregaurd Him .
Now let us remember that well . GOD has cleansed them off that land , the very land
and the very CITY HE had promised them , years later they were cast out for their rebellion .
And now the heavenly city , the heavenly Jerusalem IS . And one day it shall descend .
No jew or gentile will be partaker of that CITY , lest their faith be IN JESUS CHRIST .
And i john saw no temple therein FOR GOD and THE LAMB are THE TEMPLE .
GOD and the LAMB . My advice is , we better get busy preaching JESUS to the jews and gentiles and fast too .
Cause it sure looks like this ol world is coming to an end .
Hearken and behold
and let the truth be TOLD
TIMES RUNNING OUT and ONLY FAITH IN JESUS SAVES
and all else simply graves .
To the trenches , its the last hour call of the gospel being sounded out , WHILE THERE STILL BE TIME TO SOUND IT OUT .

 

[ewq1938]

Show me one passage of Scripture that tells me God will NOT do as He said over and over and over again, that He would regather Israel to their promised land in salvation. Maybe I should collect together all the times He said it? But there are many! It will be a lot of content.

Just one verse?

Much love!

I have already referred to the scripture proving some Jews will be cast away. All unbelievers will be thrown into the LOF.

 

[marks]

I have already referred to the scripture proving some Jews will be cast away. All unbelievers will be thrown into the LOF.

Some, but not all. God will preserve and save His remnent.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Some, but not all. God will preserve and save His remnent.

Much love!

What are the identification criteria that God will apply to determine who it is that He will preserve and save?

 

[marks]

What are the identification criteria that God will apply to determine who it is that He will preserve and save?

The remnent of Israel. What exactly are you asking? Do they have a blue strip under their t-shirt?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

You'll never see the real meaning of Scripture until the Holy Spirit reveals it to you. Once you see it, you'll wonder how you ever missed it, it was right there all along. We read plain words and never understand them. Then the Holy Spirit gives us understanding, and we read those plain words, and receive them.

You see . . . the Holy Spirit will NEVER in His revelation to you EVER contradict anything written in God's Holy Word. So there will not be any part that says this, but actually means that. It says this, but people don't see it, so they figure it's that.

I would describe this as the failure to appreciate the full significance of each word, each saying, for what it says. When we discount any part, we are in trouble! And it's not like we do that intentionally, only, we can't see it any other way, and don't know what else to do!

But when the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and our minds and our hearts to His Word, then we see the full truth of what He said.

Much love!

When the Holy Spirit through Paul said that all the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ, do you think that created a contradiction with various OT prophecies?

 

[covenantee]

The remnent of Israel. What exactly are you asking? Do they have a blue strip under their t-shirt?

Much love!

What are the identifying spiritual characteristics of the remnant that God will preserve and save?

 

[marks]

When the Holy Spirit through Paul said that all the promises of God are yes and amen in Christ, do you think that created a contradiction with various OT prophecies?

No, do you? Or do you think the prophecies will be fulfilled?

Much love!

 

[marks]

What are the identifying spiritual characteristics of the remnant that God will preserve and save?

Let's start here. Are you familiar with this passage?

Deuteronomy 4:27-31 KJV
27) And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.
28) And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30) When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31) (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

To whom is this given?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

In this instance Peter names the certain cities he has in mind where they are living, so I'm thinking in this address it is not metaphorical.

What is the "it" that is not metaphorical?

 

[marks]

What is the "it" that is not metaphorical?

From the Greek:

3927 [e]
parepidēmois
παρεπιδήμοις
sojourners
Adj-DMP

" in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

 

[covenantee]

No, do you? Or do you think the prophecies will be fulfilled?

Much love!

Nor do I.

Paul was far more intimately familiar than we are with the OT prophecies, when he penned that declaration.

There is no contradiction for me with OT prophecy being fulfilled spiritually in Christ.

Explain, from your perspective, how there is no contradiction.