the Olivet Discourse understood

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Randy Kluth

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The great tribulation Jesus was talking about is at the time of the end Jesus was quoting Daniel when speaking of the great tribulation Daniel even says this takes place at the time of the end in Daniel 11:40.
Yes, I've heard this view, and it's respectable. I don't agree, but I understand that Dan 12.1 sounds very much "endtime," since there is a reference to the resurrection.

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake."

But I don't read it that way.

Dan 11.40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.

In my judgment, this is a reference to Antiochus 4, who was engaged by Egypt, the King of the South. As I understand it, Antiochus responded to Egyptian rebellion by invading Egypt and conquering much of it. Perhaps a year later the thing was repeated, only stopped by Rome. In the process, Antiochus attacked Israel having heard of a rebellion against him there.

So this is the context in which Dan 12 makes a statement regarding Israel's time of tribulation. It began at the time Rome conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. The Jewish People were killed and exiled, leading to an age-long "Great Tribulation" that only ends at the resurrection of the righteous.

This is the exact same order in which Jesus described the "great distress" in the Olivet Discourse. Luke explains that Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, and the Jewish People are sent into an age-long punishment, typical of what Israel was promised when they disobeyed the Law.
Antiochus did not fulfill Daniels prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation .That is a false interpretation of Daniels prophecy by a Hellenistic Jew named Jason who has misled many so that they do not pay attention to Daniels prophecy.
I don't believe that's true. The AoD was applied to Antiochus 4 in Dan 11.31 and 12.11, as well as to the Roman Army in Dan 9.

Just declaring something to be false does not make it so. If Jason believed that Antiochus 4 was the AoD, he may have been right, whatever his motive was.

One thing is clear--what Jason believed is not relevant to what the Scriptures actually meant to say. And that is something you have to make up your own mind about.
 

Douggg

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So, you think these verses are related to things leading up to what happened in 70 AD, including the destruction of the temple. Now, that was a local event in Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And Matthew 24:14 is the long term transition to the end times. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Olivet Discourse11.jpg
 
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Stash

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Matthew 24:14 is the long term transition to the end times. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Well, it’s obvious that has not happened yet. However, when the satan/antichrist, comes and set up his throne in Jerusalem, every TV set in the world will be on it. Besides that his Locust army will be going around with supernatural powers, convincing everybody he is god
They will be going around worldwide, his locus army, every island every country with supernatural powers. They will definitely get everybody’s attention.

That’s how it will spread through the whole world
Not until then
It will be the antichrist, pushing the envelope, and bringing the elect to the front
All God‘s plan
 

Randy Kluth

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Matthew 24:14 is the long term transition to the end times. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Well, it’s obvious that has not happened yet. However, when the satan/antichrist, comes and set up his throne in Jerusalem, every TV set in the world will be on it. Besides that his Locust army will be going around with supernatural powers, convincing everybody he is god
They will be going around worldwide, his locus army, every island every country with supernatural powers. They will definitely get everybody’s attention.

That’s how it will spread through the whole world
Not until then
It will be the antichrist, pushing the envelope, and bringing the elect to the front
All God‘s plan
I'm not sure why you say it's obvious that the gospel has not yet been preached in all the world? It actually reached the entire Roman world in the Early Church. It certainly has reached around the world now, in every country.

But I agree that the end is not yet. So there must be some work left to do. As long as Christianity remains vibrant within a major political power I believe the evangelism and the productivity will continue. But European Civilization has rapidly become a post-Christian society. And so, I think the end is soon.

I agree that Antichrist will come and demonstrate a supernatural power to maintain a stranglehold over Europe, and in some respects the world, ie militarily. I'm not really sure what the Locust Army is? But thanks for sharing!
 

Douggg

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Matthew 24:14 is the long term transition to the end times. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Well, it’s obvious that has not happened yet. However, when the satan/antichrist, comes and set up his throne in Jerusalem, every TV set in the world will be on it. Besides that his Locust army will be going around with supernatural powers, convincing everybody he is god
They will be going around worldwide, his locus army, every island every country with supernatural powers. They will definitely get everybody’s attention.

That’s how it will spread through the whole world
Not until then
It will be the antichrist, pushing the envelope, and bringing the elect to the front
All God‘s plan
Matthew 24:15-31 has not happened yet. It will happen during the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 forthcoming.

Here is a timeline chart I made of events to take place during that 7 years. Just follow the red line from the upper left hand corner to the low right hand corner.



horiziontal chart June 25, 2022 .jpg
 

tailgator

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Yes, I've heard this view, and it's respectable. I don't agree, but I understand that Dan 12.1 sounds very much "endtime," since there is a reference to the resurrection.

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake."

But I don't read it that way.

Dan 11.40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.

In my judgment, this is a reference to Antiochus 4, who was engaged by Egypt, the King of the South. As I understand it, Antiochus responded to Egyptian rebellion by invading Egypt and conquering much of it. Perhaps a year later the thing was repeated, only stopped by Rome. In the process, Antiochus attacked Israel having heard of a rebellion against him there.

So this is the context in which Dan 12 makes a statement regarding Israel's time of tribulation. It began at the time Rome conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. The Jewish People were killed and exiled, leading to an age-long "Great Tribulation" that only ends at the resurrection of the righteous.

This is the exact same order in which Jesus described the "great distress" in the Olivet Discourse. Luke explains that Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, and the Jewish People are sent into an age-long punishment, typical of what Israel was promised when they disobeyed the Law.

I don't believe that's true. The AoD was applied to Antiochus 4 in Dan 11.31 and 12.11, as well as to the Roman Army in Dan 9.

Just declaring something to be false does not make it so. If Jason believed that Antiochus 4 was the AoD, he may have been right, whatever his motive was.

One thing is clear--what Jason believed is not relevant to what the Scriptures actually meant to say. And that is something you have to make up your own mind about.
You may be the first person that I've ever heard that believes the resurrection took place during the time of Antiochus.At that time.



Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.


How many people were resurected from the dead during the time of antiochus?
And what's the name of the book their names were written in?
 

Randy Kluth

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You may be the first person that I've ever heard that believes the resurrection took place during the time of Antiochus.At that time.
No, that's what you believe I said, but that's not what I said. I was describing when the Great Tribulation started. It was started in the time of the ancient Roman Empire, right after the time of Antiochus 4 of Syria. The Great Tribulation of the Jewish People started in 70 AD when Rome defeated Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. That's what I said.

You seemed to have thought that mention of the resurrection at the end of the age, mentioned in the verses about the Great Tribulation, place the Great Tribulation at the end of the age. But that is not so, in my view.

In my view, the Great Tribulation started not long after Antiochus 4 in the time of the Roman Empire, which began after Antiochus 4 to rule over Palestine. That's when the Great Tribulation began, in 70 AD, but it will end at the end of the age, when the resurrection takes place.

The Great Tribulation, therefore, is an *age-long* period of tribulation for the Jewish People, who were exiled by the Romans in ancient times, but who will be restored at the end of the age when Christ comes back to raise the dead. Jesus clearly defined the Great Tribulation in Luke 21 as a Jewish Punishment that lasts from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to his 2nd Coming at the end of the age.

I apologize if I didn't make it clear enough for you what I believe.
 

tailgator

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No, that's what you believe I said, but that's not what I said. I was describing when the Great Tribulation started. It was started in the time of the ancient Roman Empire, right after the time of Antiochus 4 of Syria. The Great Tribulation of the Jewish People started in 70 AD when Rome defeated Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple. That's what I said.

You seemed to have thought that mention of the resurrection at the end of the age, mentioned in the verses about the Great Tribulation, place the Great Tribulation at the end of the age. But that is not so, in my view.

In my view, the Great Tribulation started not long after Antiochus 4 in the time of the Roman Empire, which began after Antiochus 4 to rule over Palestine. That's when the Great Tribulation began, in 70 AD, but it will end at the end of the age, when the resurrection takes place.

The Great Tribulation, therefore, is an *age-long* period of tribulation for the Jewish People, who were exiled by the Romans in ancient times, but who will be restored at the end of the age when Christ comes back to raise the dead. Jesus clearly defined the Great Tribulation in Luke 21 as a Jewish Punishment that lasts from the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD to his 2nd Coming at the end of the age.

I apologize if I didn't make it clear enough for you what I believe.
Well,as I understand the text.After the middle eastern nations attack the United states armed forces,the United states nukes the middle east and North Africa.The resurection takes place at that time .

Im not a student of Jason of Cyrene,so I don't believe any of Daniel 11 is about antiochus.Ive simply been watching the prophecy as it's being fulfilled.Ive tried to understand some thing before they take place but I'm still watching the verses as they are being fulfilled.
 

Randy Kluth

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Well,as I understand the text.After the middle eastern nations attack the United states armed forces,the United states nukes the middle east and North Africa.The resurection takes place at that time .

Im not a student of Jason of Cyrene,so I don't believe any of Daniel 11 is about antiochus.Ive simply been watching the prophecy as it's being fulfilled.Ive tried to understand some thing before they take place but I'm still watching the verses as they are being fulfilled.
I won't be waiting anxiously for you to prove that to Jason of Cyrene belongs the honor of *originating* the interpretation that Dan 11 is about Antiochus 4! ;)

Oh, I'm not saying that he wasn't an early writer who believed this and taught it. It seems he was.

But the idea that he originated a now-standard interpretation of Dan 11 is like saying Jason, being an early commentator on the prophecy, somehow determines that anybody in the future who agrees with him owes their interpretation to him!

Future commentators would not base their beliefs about Dan 11 strictly on Jason, though they might consider what he said. Commentators would consider any source that could contribute to what they read in the prophecy itself.

It is the prophecy itself that is central--not who was the 1st to comment on its interpretation, which could be right or wrong, depending on what the Holy Spirit was actually meaning. His opinion, of course, could carry some weight.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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No stone upon another seems like a wall to me ALSO
I mean, isn’t a wall made out of stone?
Again...

And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus said "Seest though these great buildings"? So, He was specifically talking about the buildings. So, His comment about no stone left upon another was in relation to the buildings specifically. Why can't you be honest about this?

I’m saying when the antichrist comes very shortly and takes up shop in the temple mount, every rock will be destroyed when God comes back, including the wailing wall

I know I’m not gonna change your mind however, I disagree with you. You’re saying Titus is bringing on the end of the world lol.
No, I'm not saying that. Don't make assumptions about what I believe. I'm not a preterist. Agreeing with them on a couple things doesn't make me one of them. Do you think it makes you look any better by misrepresenting my view?

And if your theology is based on that stoned temple in 70 A.D. I guarantee you will be fooled by the antichrist.
What's this "the antichrist" stuff? Have you ever actually looked up the term "antichrist" in scripture? John made it clear that there are many antichrists, not one. It is anyone who denies Christ.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, I know the apostles asked about the buildings, but Jesus did not mention the buildings only. Jesus said things, including the wall.



Matthew 24:2

King James Version

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I showed you that He did only mention the buildings and you just ignore it. You understand that the Olivet Discourse is recorded in Mark 13 as well, right?

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
 

tailgator

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I won't be waiting anxiously for you to prove that to Jason of Cyrene belongs the honor of *originating* the interpretation that Dan 11 is about Antiochus 4! ;)

Oh, I'm not saying that he wasn't an early writer who believed this and taught it. It seems he was.

But the idea that he originated a now-standard interpretation of Dan 11 is like saying Jason, being an early commentator on the prophecy, somehow determines that anybody in the future who agrees with him owes their interpretation to him!

Future commentators would not base their beliefs about Dan 11 strictly on Jason, though they might consider what he said. Commentators would consider any source that could contribute to what they read in the prophecy itself.

It is the prophecy itself that is central--not who was the 1st to comment on its interpretation, which could be right or wrong, depending on what the Holy Spirit was actually meaning. His opinion, of course, could carry some weight.
You don't have anyone else to pin the tail of that donkey on.
Jason is the only name given that it originates from.
 

tailgator

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I showed you that He did only mention the buildings and you just ignore it. You understand that the Olivet Discourse is recorded in Mark 13 as well, right?

Mark 13:1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
The Olivet discourse is in mark 13,Mathew 24,and Luke 21.

Jesus gives signs that precede his coming beginning with the false prophets who comes in his name.
People who claim to be christians coming in the name of Jesus and deceiving many.
 

tailgator

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Well,I guess I should say Yeshua's name seeing Jesus is talking about the false prophets that come to the land of Israel in his name deceiving many.
 

GodsGrace

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What does this passage mean?...

Matt 24.Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This happened in 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is not Last Days prophecy--this happened in the generation of those alive in Jesus' time.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.


These "Birth Pains" took place in Jesus' own generation. They anticipated the coming fall of Jerusalem to the Romans. There were rumors of wars, warning Jesus' Disciples that this judgment was surely coming. The signs included indications God was unhappy with Israel and was soon to bring final judgment to them.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus' own Disciples among the Jewish People would be rejected and persecuted by apostate Israel, ie by their unbelieving Jewish brothers. This was some of the sin for which God was bringing judgment to Israel in 70 AD.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

There is no question, particularly when the parallel account is read in Luke 21, that this is about a Great Tribulation spanning the entire NT age. That's what makes it the "Great Tribulation." It's the greatest punishment that Israel has ever experienced--the longest punishment in its history. And when Israel experienced punishment, they suffered the tribulation of exile and the curses that followed them in that exile. It is called the "Jewish Diaspora."

The "Abomination of Desolation" is spelled out in Daniel, and is not to be confused with another AoD mentioned in Daniel, which applied to Antiochus 4 of Syria. This particular AoD originates from Dan 9 where the "people of the prince to come," an Army, is to come to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. That's the AoD Jesus is speaking of here.

And the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was merely the start of Israel's exile and an entire age of Jewish Diaspora. It was to last until the preaching of the Gospel is preached to the whole world as a warning of ultimate judgment for human sin.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

As there was in that early generation so it continues throughout the age that Millennial groups attempt to state that they are the "move of Christ" to bring God's Kingdom to earth. But God is concerned about the ultimate destruction of the Jewish People before He can judge and remove the wicked from among them in order to restore the nation using the repentant. And so, Christ will in the end come from heaven to bring an end to Israel's oppression and to save the Church from their persecution.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

In accordance with Dan 7, the Son of Man comes from the clouds, ie from heaven, and not before. In other words, even as false Messianic movements proliferated the Roman army would gather around Jerusalem. And Jesus would not deliver Israel at that time, but would come later with the clouds.

So Jesus warns his Disciples that the Roman "vultures" will gather against Jerusalem to destroy the Temple. The Romans carried "eagle" standards, representing gods that they worshiped. They gathered "like eagles" around Jerusalem, the "corpse." Deliverance from heaven will not come before Israel is brought under judgment in that generation.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’


It is after the Jewish Distress of the present age, while Christians are persecuted, that Christ, the Son of Man, will return from heaven, but not before.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

This is the completion of what Daniel saw in Dan 7, which is the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to destroy the persecutors of the Church and to establish God's Kingdom on their behalf. Daniel there portrays the coming of the Son of Man to destroy Antichrist, the Man of Sin, who opposes God's People and His Kingdom.
I agree with you....
but I also agree with post no. 3 @Spiritual Israelite.
I believe that many times we get the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD conflated with Jesus' speaking about the end of the world.
 
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GodsGrace

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The Olivet discourse is comprised of near term, long term, and end times verses.


View attachment 46905
Hi Douggg:

This is also for @Spiritual Israelite

I really like the above chart but have a question for both of you:

Matthew 24:34
I always believed this was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD because it sounds like the situation being spoken of would happen within the life time of the disciples.

Why is it in the End Times section of the Olivet Discourse as above?

What do you believe Matthew 24:34 is referring to?
 

Randy Kluth

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I agree with you....
but I also agree with post no. 3 @Spiritual Israelite.
I believe that many times we get the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD conflated with Jesus' speaking about the end of the world.
Yes, I think that's a pivotal matter--in what way does the destruction of the Temple in Jesus' generation relate to the coming of the Son of Man at the end of the age? Clearly, there are elements in this Discourse that involve the end of the age. And certainly the fall of the Temple took place in 70 AD and had to do with Jesus' generation. Separating each statement into the proper time slot is critical, I think, if we're to understand the train of Jesus' thought.
 

Randy Kluth

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You don't have anyone else to pin the tail of that donkey on.
Jason is the only name given that it originates from.
The point I was making was that you don't have to "pin the tail on a donkey" at all! One gets the interpretation of a prophecy from the prophecy itself, and not from the 1st guy to try to interpret it!

And not everybody that has the same opinion is getting his inspiration from the 1st one who has that opinion. I may read the Olivet Discourse and form an opinion of it without referencing the 1st guy who holds that opinion.
 

covenantee

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Hi Douggg:

This is also for @Spiritual Israelite

I really like the above chart but have a question for both of you:

Matthew 24:34
I always believed this was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD because it sounds like the situation being spoken of would happen within the life time of the disciples.

Why is it in the End Times section of the Olivet Discourse as above?

What do you believe Matthew 24:34 is referring to?
No intrusion intended, but FYI this is how Strong/Thayer define it:

"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34"

1074 [e]
genea
γενεὰ
generation
N-NFS

Verse in Greek

It is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
 
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GodsGrace

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Yes, I think that's a pivotal matter--in what way does the destruction of the Temple in Jesus' generation relate to the coming of the Son of Man at the end of the age? Clearly, there are elements in this Discourse that involve the end of the age. And certainly the fall of the Temple took place in 70 AD and had to do with Jesus' generation. Separating each statement into the proper time slot is critical, I think, if we're to understand the train of Jesus' thought.
Did you see post 62?
Do you agree with Matthew 24:34 being in the End Times section?
This has always confused me a little.
Do you believe Jesus was referencing 70AD?