Right.
I agree.
I'm not understanding why the chart on post 62 has it in End Times.
Guess we can't trust much on the net....
the Olivet Discourse understood
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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I agree.
I'm not understanding why the chart on post 62 has it in End Times.
Guess we can't trust much on the net....
There are other verses where "genea" is used to mean race. Those who futurize Matthew 24:34 invariably impose that meaning. However, as you see, Strong/Thayer do not.Right.
I agree.
I'm not understanding why the chart on post 62 has it in End Times.
Guess we can't trust much on the net....
I’m only as honest as the Bible
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I’m only I’m only interested in the real antichrist and he has not come yet
You didn't get antiochus from the prophecy itself.You got that from Jason's interpretation.
Not from Daniel.Daniel never penned the name Antiochus and the theory of antiochus being in Daniel prophecy came from Jason.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know.
Yes, He does. What does this have to do with what I said in the post you responded to exactly?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
This requires looking at several surrounding verses for context.
Matthew 24:23 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So, what was Jesus saying in verse 34? First, we have to look at what He said just before that. What are "these things" that would indicate that His coming was "near, even at the doors" and that had to be fulfilled before "this generation" would pass? Things like false Christs and false prophets showing "great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". And things like what are described in verse 29. Those things are probably figurative (stars falling from heaven does not seem like a literal thing at all to me), but whatever they represent would be among "these things" that would indicate that His coming is "near, even at the doors". Luke describes those things as "those things which are coming on the earth" (Luke 21:26). Jesus seems to be focused on a high level of deception and such as being what will indicate that His coming is near moreso than anything else. Which lines up with what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.
His second coming is a global event (2 Peter 3:10-13) and hasn't happened yet, so therefore "this generation" cannot be referring to the chronological generation living at the time Jesus gave the Olivet Discourse. It has to be that whatever "this generation" means, it can't pass away until the things that happen to indicate that Christ's second coming are near happen first. Once those things happen then "this generation" will pass away and even "heaven and earth shall pass away" (verse 35).
So, what is "this generation" referring to then? The word "generation" is translated from the Greek word "genea" and it has several different definitions. The one that I believe fits here without causing any contradictions is that it's referring to a kind of people. The Jews, in particular. So, I see Jesus as saying the Jews, as a people, would not pass away until the things that happen just before His second coming happen first. At that point, even "heaven and earth will pass away". This is when what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 will happen. That's why Jesus said in Matthew 24:38-39 that just as the flood "took them all away", meaning that it killed all unbelievers, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. All unbelievers will be destroyed when Jesus returns as well.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Is Mark 13:2 in your Bible?
Mark 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
By actually looking at Mark 13 and Luke 21 instead of only Matthew 24, we can get further insight into what Jesus was talking about in the Olivet Discourse. Mark makes it very clear that Jesus was specifically talking about the destruction of the temple buildings. Not some retaining wall.
No, I got it from reading commentators. You'd have to ask them where they got their views from. Obviously, you're not going to get the names of figures foretold to come in the future.
Is that the point you were trying to make? Really?Even if the original view that the figure was Antiochus 4, why would anybody accept that unless it actually fit in the prophecy? So, as you can see, nobody is going to accept Jason's word for anything unless it actually makes sense.
Well, some people are going to accept anything if they simply want to believe it. But I'm talking about respectable, honest commentators. They would never just take Jason's word for anything, but would verify all of the information he's using.
So, you can just sit there and say I got my information from X. But it really doesn't matter where it came from as long as it makes sense and fits in the prophecy. And many good and respected commentators have held that the figure towards the end of Dan 11 is Antiochus 4.
The idea that you know better than them is laughable. At the very least you should acknowledge that they know more than you do?
I agree--he has not come yet. You will find the source of information about him in Dan 7. He's called the "Little Horn." Paul called him the "Man of Sin." John called him the "Antichrist." John in Revelation called him the "Beast."
No, I had passed over post #62, but I've read it now. I would have to disagree with Doug because it does not link the "Great Distress" in each account.
Matt 24.15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
Mark 13.14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Please note that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are documenting the very same Address Jesus gave on the Mt. of Olives. The section above was the exact same Discourse, though each author uses his own descriptive terms and may add or subtract certain features that did not seem relevant to them.
What are these elements, given in each account?
1) The Abomination of Desolation/Jerusalem surrounded by armies leading to desolation
2) Jewish disciples of Jesus flee
3) Great Distress/Jewish Punishment and Diaspora
Those who wish to separate Luke's account from the accounts of Matthew and Mark wish to do so to render Matthew and Mark's account about the endtimes, and Luke's account about Jesus' own generation. You are actually trying to synchronize them all, which is, I think, better but still wrong. Actually, I don't know what you believe, but it is Doug's view that I think is wrong.
Doug separates the Abomination of Desolation from Jerusalem being surrounded by armies leading to a desolation. He does so without warrant. Both versions take place in exactly the same place in the Address. And they all originate from Dan 9, where it is said that the city of Jerusalem and the Temple is to be destroyed by the people/army of a ruler to come (a Roman ruler).
So it makes sense that the AoD is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD.
The other thing that disrupts Jesus' train of thought is the notion that the "Great Tribulation" is purely "endtimes." As Luke indicates, it has to do with an age-long Jewish punishment for abandoning the Law of God and their Messiah. This punishment was to begin with the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD) and end with the Return of Messiah at the end of the age. It is an *age-long Tribulation!* Christians suffer in it, as well, since the Devil is ruining the game for both Israel and Christian nations later.
I told everybody Trump would kick his butt goodbye Biden, if you guys ought to listen to me a little
Who needs to listen to you? You think you make the world turn? I've been fighting pro-Trump, anti-Democrat since well before Trump won the presidency. Are you on some kind of ego-drug?
Anyway, I'm very happy to hear you're on the Trump team, as I am. I watch Dan Bongino every day on Rumble, if you want hard-core, Pro-Trump, anti-Biden rhetoric that's perhaps a little rough.
As to the 70 AD thing, it's like they say--you can walk and chew gum at the same time. You can believe the AoD was 70 AD and you can believe in a future Antichrist at the same time. You have to take each prophecy on its own merits.
Hi GodsGrace, nice choice of a screen name btw.
Matthew 24:34 is a part of the parable of the fig tree generation beginning in verse 32 that would not pass away without Jesus's return.
What I believe is that Jerusalem is the metaphoric fig tree. The reason being Jesus cursed a fig tree beside the road as He and the disciples were entering Jerusalem that Passover week which He would be crucified, Matthew 21:18-20. The cursed fig tree represented that particular generation because they produced no fruit, so we can rule out 70 AD for that reason, and also because Jesus has not yet to return.
In 1967, the Jew regained possession of Jerusalem. So if we take 1967 and add 70 years for a generation length (Psalms 90:10), we get 2037 as the year Jesus must return before then.
And if we go a step further and subtract 7 years for the 7 year 70 week of Daniel 9:27 to begin - we get no later than the end of 2030 that the 7 years begin.
So we are close.
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Fixing dates again, I see? Bad idea!
The big problem here is that you're drawing the wrong conclusion. You're saying that because Christ didn't come within a generation of the "Fig Tree" that the Fig Tree could not have been the Israel of that generation?
Well, Jesus never said he was coming within the generation of the Fig Tree. He said "all these things" would happen within his generation, which was an implicit reference to what he had been talking about with respect to the main prophecy, namely the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. And that did indeed happen within a generation.
It's not about 70 ad.
The false prophet has not yet arrived to help the beast.
All of the commentaries come from Jasons interpretation.No, I got it from reading commentators. You'd have to ask them where they got their views from. Obviously, you're not going to get the names of figures foretold to come in the future.
Even if the original view that the figure was Antiochus 4, why would anybody accept that unless it actually fit in the prophecy? So, as you can see, nobody is going to accept Jason's word for anything unless it actually makes sense.
Well, some people are going to accept anything if they simply want to believe it. But I'm talking about respectable, honest commentators. They would never just take Jason's word for anything, but would verify all of the information he's using.
So, you can just sit there and say I got my information from X. But it really doesn't matter where it came from as long as it makes sense and fits in the prophecy. And many good and respected commentators have held that the figure towards the end of Dan 11 is Antiochus 4.
The idea that you know better than them is laughable. At the very least you should acknowledge that they know more than you do?
Even joesephus commentary is based off someone elses work.The oldest know work on the subject comes from Jason and that work is lost.
Even if you write a commentary which you are doing so on this board,it is based off someone else's beliefs.Its not based on the word of God.
Thanks Spiritual
You hit on the problem, of course....
THIS GENERATION shall not pass away UNTIL all these things come to pass.
Yes, it can mean MY CONTEMPORARIES or THIS RACE as you've stated.
Matthew 16:28 is also problematic to me.
28"Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
I don't know enough about end time prophecy to really continue this conversation...
Frankly, to me personally, these verses do not cause any problem....however, I've been speaking to someone on a different forum that is being held back by Matthew 24:34 because he feels that Jesus cannot be trusted because His prophecy was not correct.
As to Matthew 16:28, I believe it can also mean when Jesus' spiritual KIngdom comes,,,which is here on earth, right now and for which the Apostles taught and travelled to spread the teachings of Jesus.
Franky, not being well-versed in all this, when I read this type of passage, I just get the feeling that the destruction of Jerusalem gets all mixed up with prophecy about the end of the world.
Comments?
Randy, I very much agree with you but it leaves so many problems.
What do you think of the post just above to Spiritual where I state that perhaps the writers get Jerusalem conflated with the end times?
Jesus didn't write anything down, so we have to trust what the writers wrote and it wasn't even done immediately after Jesus' death.
The letters were written first!
Could it be just a mish mash of things human, or do you think it's imperative that we get this right?
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