the Olivet Discourse understood

[Randy Kluth]

What does this passage mean?...

Matt 24.Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This happened in 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is not Last Days prophecy--this happened in the generation of those alive in Jesus' time.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

These "Birth Pains" took place in Jesus' own generation. They anticipated the coming fall of Jerusalem to the Romans. There were rumors of wars, warning Jesus' Disciples that this judgment was surely coming. The signs included indications God was unhappy with Israel and was soon to bring final judgment to them.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus' own Disciples among the Jewish People would be rejected and persecuted by apostate Israel, ie by their unbelieving Jewish brothers. This was some of the sin for which God was bringing judgment to Israel in 70 AD.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

There is no question, particularly when the parallel account is read in Luke 21, that this is about a Great Tribulation spanning the entire NT age. That's what makes it the "Great Tribulation." It's the greatest punishment that Israel has ever experienced--the longest punishment in its history. And when Israel experienced punishment, they suffered the tribulation of exile and the curses that followed them in that exile. It is called the "Jewish Diaspora."

The "Abomination of Desolation" is spelled out in Daniel, and is not to be confused with another AoD mentioned in Daniel, which applied to Antiochus 4 of Syria. This particular AoD originates from Dan 9 where the "people of the prince to come," an Army, is to come to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. That's the AoD Jesus is speaking of here.

And the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was merely the start of Israel's exile and an entire age of Jewish Diaspora. It was to last until the preaching of the Gospel is preached to the whole world as a warning of ultimate judgment for human sin.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

As there was in that early generation so it continues throughout the age that Millennial groups attempt to state that they are the "move of Christ" to bring God's Kingdom to earth. But God is concerned about the ultimate destruction of the Jewish People before He can judge and remove the wicked from among them in order to restore the nation using the repentant. And so, Christ will in the end come from heaven to bring an end to Israel's oppression and to save the Church from their persecution.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

In accordance with Dan 7, the Son of Man comes from the clouds, ie from heaven, and not before. In other words, even as false Messianic movements proliferated the Roman army would gather around Jerusalem. And Jesus would not deliver Israel at that time, but would come later with the clouds.

So Jesus warns his Disciples that the Roman "vultures" will gather against Jerusalem to destroy the Temple. The Romans carried "eagle" standards, representing gods that they worshiped. They gathered "like eagles" around Jerusalem, the "corpse." Deliverance from heaven will not come before Israel is brought under judgment in that generation.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

It is after the Jewish Distress of the present age, while Christians are persecuted, that Christ, the Son of Man, will return from heaven, but not before.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

This is the completion of what Daniel saw in Dan 7, which is the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to destroy the persecutors of the Church and to establish God's Kingdom on their behalf. Daniel there portrays the coming of the Son of Man to destroy Antichrist, the Man of Sin, who opposes God's People and His Kingdom.

 

[Truth7t7]

What does this passage mean?...

Matt 24.Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This happened in 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is not Last Days prophecy--this happened in the generation of those alive in Jesus' time.

As stated in John 2:19-22 below, Jesus stood before the temple in Jerusalem with the pharisees,, and stated "Destroy This Temple" and the pharisees like you were believing in a literal temple made of stone, the interpretation was the Lord's Body to be destroyed, simple, clear, easy to understand if your not clinging to preterist 70AD fulfillment

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What does this passage mean?...

Matt 24.Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This happened in 70 AD, about 40 years after Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. This is not Last Days prophecy--this happened in the generation of those alive in Jesus' time.

Agree.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

These "Birth Pains" took place in Jesus' own generation. They anticipated the coming fall of Jerusalem to the Romans. There were rumors of wars, warning Jesus' Disciples that this judgment was surely coming. The signs included indications God was unhappy with Israel and was soon to bring final judgment to them.

Disagree. Jesus was talking in a global sense there, not in a local (to Jerusalem) sense. In Matthew 24:4-14 He talked about things that would happen before "the end". He specifically referenced "the end" in Matthew verses 13 and 14. The end of what? The end of the age that Jesus was asked about. What else? And 70 AD was not the end of the age. Jesus spoke of "this age" in terms of this temporal age we're still living in when people get married and they die. He contrasted that with the age to come when people will no longer get married or die (Luke 20:34-36).

One of the questions Jesus was asked related to His coming and the end of the age. He answered that question in Matthew 24:4-14 then transitioned to answering the question about the destruction of the temple buildings in verses 15-21.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus' own Disciples among the Jewish People would be rejected and persecuted by apostate Israel, ie by their unbelieving Jewish brothers. This was some of the sin for which God was bringing judgment to Israel in 70 AD.

Again, what is "the end" that Jesus referenced there in verses 13 and 14, if not the end of the age? In context, He had to be referring to the end of the age there. And I don't think you believe that the end of age occurred in 70 AD, right?

Notice that Jesus talked about a time when many would turn away from the faith and wickedness would increase. Do you not think that He was talking about the same thing that Paul talked about here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul indicated that the time when many would turn away from the faith and wickedness would increase would happen just before the return of Christ and our being gathered to Him. You don't believe Paul was talking about something that would happen in 70 AD there, right?

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

There is no question, particularly when the parallel account is read in Luke 21, that this is about a Great Tribulation spanning the entire NT age. That's what makes it the "Great Tribulation." It's the greatest punishment that Israel has ever experienced--the longest punishment in its history. And when Israel experienced punishment, they suffered the tribulation of exile and the curses that followed them in that exile. It is called the "Jewish Diaspora."

Hmmm. While I do agree that this passage relates to what occurred in 70 AD, I don't necessarily see it as describing "a Great Tribulation spanning the entire NT age". To me, the great tribulation itself was God's wrath upon the city of Jerusalem that resulted in its destruction, including its temple buildings. They were destroyed just as Jesus said they would be. What followed that was what Luke called "the times of the Gentiles". I suppose you could say tribulation continued for the Jews even after that, but I'm not sure I would include that as part of "great tribulation". But, I do agree that "when Israel experienced punishment, they suffered the tribulation of exile and the curses that followed them in that exile". So, I don't have a major problem with what you said here.

The "Abomination of Desolation" is spelled out in Daniel, and is not to be confused with another AoD mentioned in Daniel, which applied to Antiochus 4 of Syria. This particular AoD originates from Dan 9 where the "people of the prince to come," an Army, is to come to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. That's the AoD Jesus is speaking of here.

Agree. People think that every reference to an abomination of desolation in Daniel all refer to the same event, but that just isn't the case. They don't all have the same context. I definitely believe that Jesus had Daniel 9:24-27 in mind in particular when He referenced Daniel and said what He did in Matthew 24:15-21.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was merely the start of Israel's exile and an entire age of Jewish Diaspora. It was to last until the preaching of the Gospel is preached to the whole world as a warning of ultimate judgment for human sin.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

As there was in that early generation so it continues throughout the age that Millennial groups attempt to state that they are the "move of Christ" to bring God's Kingdom to earth. But God is concerned about the ultimate destruction of the Jewish People before He can judge and remove the wicked from among them in order to restore the nation using the repentant. And so, Christ will in the end come from heaven to bring an end to Israel's oppression and to save the Church from their persecution.

I don't see Jesus alluding to anything you said there in those verses. I believe what He was saying there lines up with what He was saying in verses 4-14. He's talking about the time that leads up to the return of Christ. A time during which there would be an increase in deception because of many false Christs and false prophets, leading to many falling away from the faith and to an increase in wickedness.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

In accordance with Dan 7, the Son of Man comes from the clouds, ie from heaven, and not before. In other words, even as false Messianic movements proliferated the Roman army would gather around Jerusalem. And Jesus would not deliver Israel at that time, but would come later with the clouds.

So Jesus warns his Disciples that the Roman "vultures" will gather against Jerusalem to destroy the Temple. The Romans carried "eagle" standards, representing gods that they worshiped. They gathered "like eagles" around Jerusalem, the "corpse." Deliverance from heaven will not come before Israel is brought under judgment in that generation.

I can't understand what you said here at all. You are relating those verses to 70 AD and not to Jesus's future second coming?

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

It is after the Jewish Distress of the present age, while Christians are persecuted, that Christ, the Son of Man, will return from heaven, but not before.

It seems like you related verses 26-28 to 70 AD, but then suddenly verse 29 relates to the future return of Christ. I can't understand how you are interpreting these verses.

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

This is the completion of what Daniel saw in Dan 7, which is the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to destroy the persecutors of the Church and to establish God's Kingdom on their behalf. Daniel there portrays the coming of the Son of Man to destroy Antichrist, the Man of Sin, who opposes God's People and His Kingdom.

Where do you see a reference to the Son of Man coming FROM heaven in Daniel 7? I see a reference to the Son of Man coming TO heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. That is a reference to His ascension and lines up with Ephesians 1:19-23.

 

[Douggg]

The Olivet discourse is comprised of near term, long term, and end times verses.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As stated in John 2:19-22 below, Jesus stood before the temple in Jerusalem with the pharisees,, and stated "Destroy This Temple" and the pharisees like you were believing in a literal temple made of stone, the interpretation was the Lord's Body to be destroyed, simple, clear, easy to understand if your not clinging to preterist 70AD fulfillment

I'm a Pharisee? You think that anybody who actually believes what Jesus said, that the literal Temple will be destroyed, is a Pharisee? This argument doesn't deserve an answer. If you can't debate a subject with a fellow Christian without calling him names, then we have no means for discussion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Disagree. Jesus was talking in a global sense there, not in a local (to Jerusalem) sense. In Matthew 24:4-14 He talked about things that would happen before "the end". He specifically referenced "the end" in Matthew verses 13 and 14. The end of what? The end of the age that Jesus was asked about. What else? And 70 AD was not the end of the age.

Of course I know Jesus was referring to the end of the age. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

What I'm saying is that the main focus was on the events about to transpire in the life of the nation Israel. It is a prophecy of Israel's future, just as many prophecies in the OT were.

However, the event about to happen in 70 AD did not mean that the Gospel would stop being preached or that the Jews would stop being punished. No, this was, according to Luke's version, going to be an age-long Jewish punishment.

So Jesus began by talking about what would happen specifically in his own generation. There would be certain Birth Pain signs, and that would lead up to the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman invasion of 70 AD.

That would be followed by a long age of Jewish punishment, or tribulation. During this time the Church also would suffer, both from Jewish persecution and from the persecution that would come from many hostile nations. These things would continue until the end of the age.

Notice that Jesus talked about a time when many would turn away from the faith and wickedness would increase. Do you not think that He was talking about the same thing that Paul talked about here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition...

I think Jesus was speaking more generally of the present age when rebellion against God's word is rampant in all nations. This is a time of trouble for persecuted Christians, as well as a time of trouble for rebellious nations who are punished by God.

The Antichrist will be the end of many centuries of similar activities. In recent history we've had Hitler and Stalin. These also were antichrists.

In my view the "falling away" has been happening, on an intellectual level, in Christian Europe since the Enlightenment and even before in the Renaissance. There has been a gradual turning away from a Christian consensus in Christian society. Today, we live in a Post-Christian world.

But the ultimate apostasy that Paul spoke of in 2 Thes 2, concerns the "Little Horn" of Dan 7 who will appear, opposing God's word and Christianity everywhere that he controls. He will take control, I believe, of formerly Christian Europe, and impose his will on 10 particular European states, defeating 3 of them. We'll see....

Hmmm. While I do agree that this passage relates to what occurred in 70 AD, I don't necessarily see it as describing "a Great Tribulation spanning the entire NT age". To me, the great tribulation itself was God's wrath upon the city of Jerusalem that resulted in its destruction, including its temple buildings. They were destroyed just as Jesus said they would be. What followed that was what Luke called "the times of the Gentiles". I suppose you could say tribulation continued for the Jews even after that, but I'm not sure I would include that as part of "great tribulation". But, I do agree that "when Israel experienced punishment, they suffered the tribulation of exile and the curses that followed them in that exile". So, I don't have a major problem with what you said here.

Thank you. Of course you have to go by your own reading and discernment. I welcome that.

Agree. People think that every reference to an abomination of desolation in Daniel all refer to the same event, but that just isn't the case. They don't all have the same context. I definitely believe that Jesus had Daniel 9:24-27 in mind in particular when He referenced Daniel and said what He did in Matthew 24:15-21.

Glad we have some agreement. Disagreement just calls for more study. ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't see Jesus alluding to anything you said there in those verses. I believe what He was saying there lines up with what He was saying in verses 4-14. He's talking about the time that leads up to the return of Christ. A time during which there would be an increase in deception because of many false Christs and false prophets, leading to many falling away from the faith and to an increase in wickedness.

Some of what Jesus said referred specifically to the 70 AD event, but he suggested that some aspects of the prophecy would continue on until the end of the age. For example, the "great tribulation," which I define as the age-long Jewish punishment, continues until the end of the age, long after 70 AD. And the preaching of the Gospel, as a warning of judgment to the world, continues long past Jesus' generation until the end of the age.

But everything concerning the destruction of the temple would be fulfilled in Jesus' generation. That was the major focus of this prophecy, which included a warning against any so-called Kingdom on earth that claimed to be Christ's Coming before he actually is revealed from the sky.

I can't understand what you said here at all. You are relating those verses to 70 AD and not to Jesus's future second coming?

Yes, this is a major point I wished to make in this particular post. We often read Jesus' reference to his Coming and join it to his warning about a gathering of vultures. But I think we've been reading it wrong if we've been reading it that way.

Rather, Jesus is just stating that he isn't really Coming yet if he isn't Coming from the sky. The judgment he just said will take place against the Jews in his own generation will *not* be his 2nd Coming! Rather, it will be a coming of Roman vultures to devour the Jewish "corpse." It will not be an eschatological Salvation for the Jewish People, but rather, a time of their destruction.

Where do you see a reference to the Son of Man coming FROM heaven in Daniel 7? I see a reference to the Son of Man coming TO heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. That is a reference to His ascension and lines up with Ephesians 1:19-23.

He is coming with the clouds, ie *from heaven* in Dan 7. That is Paul's interpretation of those verses.

Dan 7.13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven."

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm a Pharisee? You think that anybody who actually believes what Jesus said, that the literal Temple will be destroyed, is a Pharisee? This argument doesn't deserve an answer. If you can't debate a subject with a fellow Christian without calling him names, then we have no means for discussion.

I didn't call you a pharisee as you falsley claim, I stated your belief is like them in believing in a literal temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed

Yes you believe in a literal temple to be destroyed that took 46 years to build, just as the parishes

Yes you believe as the parishes, I didn't call you a pharisee, big difference

Sorta like calling everyone who observes the 7th day sabbath a 7th Day Adventist "Wrong"!

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't see Jesus alluding to anything you said there in those verses. I believe what He was saying there lines up with what He was saying in verses 4-14. He's talking about the time that leads up to the return of Christ. A time during which there would be an increase in deception because of many false Christs and false prophets, leading to many falling away from the faith and to an increase in wickedness.

Once again you believe in a 1st century AOD Matthew 24:15 and great tribulation Matthew 24:21, then verses 29-30 are future, correct me if I'm wrong?

The verses seen below are all "Future", Daniel's AOD causes and starts the great tribulation, Jesus returns immediately after this "Future" great tribulation

Matthew 24:15-30KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (Whoso readeth, let him understand : )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Where do you see a reference to the Son of Man coming FROM heaven in Daniel 7? I see a reference to the Son of Man coming TO heaven in Daniel 7:13-14. That is a reference to His ascension and lines up with Ephesians 1:19-23.

Daniel 7:9-11 below shows the future second coming of Jesus Christ in "Fire", it also shows the future final judgement and the fact that (The Little Horn/The Beast) will have a living literal body destroyed and given to the burning flame

Daniel 7:9-11KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 7:13-14 below does nothing more than repeat the "Future" second coming, your claim this represents the historical ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven is 100% "False"

(The Son Of Man "Came" With The Clouds Of Heaven) The Exact Same Event Seen In Matthew 24:30, A Future Event Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course I know Jesus was referring to the end of the age. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

Like me, you've been posting on forums like this for a long time. You know you can rarely be certain about what someone is saying here. I was going by what you had said, which did not make it obvious that you thought He was talking about the end of the age there.

What I'm saying is that the main focus was on the events about to transpire in the life of the nation Israel. It is a prophecy of Israel's future, just as many prophecies in the OT were.

But, His coming and the end of the age is a global event, so Jesus talked about things there that would happen globally. His focus was not on Israel in those verses (4-14). He shifted His focus there starting in verse 15.

However, the event about to happen in 70 AD did not mean that the Gospel would stop being preached or that the Jews would stop being punished. No, this was, according to Luke's version, going to be an age-long Jewish punishment.

Based on what is written in Luke 21:20-24, that is true in a sense. Jerusalem would continue to be trampled on by the Gentiles during what Luke called "the times of the Gentiles", so I can see that as a long-term form of punishment for them.

So Jesus began by talking about what would happen specifically in his own generation. There would be certain Birth Pain signs, and that would lead up to the Abomination of Desolation, the Roman invasion of 70 AD.

No, I disagree. Again, verses 4-14 have a global scope about things that would happen during the New Testament era right up until the end of the age when Jesus returns. The way you are coming across here is that you think verses 4-14 all relate to things that would lead up to 70 AD, yet verses 13 and 14 specifically refer to "the end", which refers to "the end of the age" when Jesus comes, which has not happened yet. This is why I asked you what your understanding of the references to "the end" mean. You just don't realize how you are coming across with what you're saying here. Jesus does not start answering the question about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings until verse 15 and His answer is found within verses 15-22.

I think Jesus was speaking more generally of the present age when rebellion against God's word is rampant in all nations. This is a time of trouble for persecuted Christians, as well as a time of trouble for rebellious nations who are punished by God.

So, you think Jesus was speaking of both things that would happen before 70 AD and things that would happen before His coming at the end of the age within Matthew 24:4-14? Which would mean you kind of see a double fulfillment there?

The Antichrist will be the end of many centuries of similar activities. In recent history we've had Hitler and Stalin. These also were antichrists.

There is no individual future Antichrist. John made it clear that there would be many antichrists, and there were already many antichrists in the world in his day (1 John 2:18). And He indicated that anyone (not just one person) who denies Christ is an antichrist (1 John 2:22, 2 John 1:7).

In my view the "falling away" has been happening, on an intellectual level, in Christian Europe since the Enlightenment and even before in the Renaissance. There has been a gradual turning away from a Christian consensus in Christian society. Today, we live in a Post-Christian world.

I completely disagree. For one things it's not an intellectual falling away, it's a spiritual falling away. Both Jesus and Paul were talking about a global falling away from the faith that would occur, but you are talking about something only on a local or regional scale. I equate the time that they were talking about with Satan's little season (Revelation 20:7-9).

But the ultimate apostasy that Paul spoke of in 2 Thes 2, concerns the "Little Horn" of Dan 7 who will appear, opposing God's word and Christianity everywhere that he controls. He will take control, I believe, of formerly Christian Europe, and impose his will on 10 particular European states, defeating 3 of them. We'll see....

Yeah, I don't buy into any of that stuff. I don't see that taught in 2 Thess 2 at all.

Thank you. Of course you have to go by your own reading and discernment. I welcome that.

Glad we have some agreement. Disagreement just calls for more study. ;)

I agree, so that gives us a little more agreement. And, yeah, keep studying.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:15-30KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (Whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Truth7t7, if you want to remove the smiley face, then edit that verse and put a space (with one press of the space bar on your keyboard) between the colon and the parenthesis.

Without a space it shows as a hypertext smiley face.

I have to do that edit every time I post that particular verse.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once again you believe in a 1st century AOD Matthew 24:15 and great tribulation Matthew 24:21, then verses 29-30 are future, correct me if I'm wrong?

I have specifically told you that probably at least 10 times and have mentioned that in other posts probably at least another 50 times, so, no, you are not wrong about that. I've made it very clear on how I interpret Matthew 24, so you shouldn't be any uncertainty about how I interpret it by now.

The verses seen below are all "Future", Daniel's AOD causes and starts the great tribulation, Jesus returns immediately after this "Future" great tribulation

Matthew 24:15-30KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (Whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Nope. If you would read the parallel passage from Luke 21, you would see that "the times of the Gentiles" follows what is described in Matthew 24:15-21.

Daniel 7:9-11 below shows the future second coming of Jesus Christ in "Fire", it also shows the future final judgement and the fact that (The Little Horn/The Beast) will have a living literal body destroyed and given to the burning flame

Daniel 7:9-11KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Yes, that reminds me of Revelation 19:20-21 and Revelation 20:11-15. Premils deny that those are speaking of the same event. The same Premils who you agree with on almost everything else besides that.

Daniel 7:13-14 below does nothing more than repeat the "Future" second coming, your claim this represents the historical ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven is 100% "False"

(The Son Of Man "Came" With The Clouds Of Heaven) The Exact Same Event Seen In Matthew 24:30, A Future Event Unfulfilled

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Daniel 7:13-14KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

You are not reading these passages carefully. You are seeing one phrase that is contained in both passages and just assuming they are both related to the same event without reading the entire passages and looking at the context of each of them. In Matthew 24:30 Jesus is coming with the clouds of heaven FROM heaven. In Daniel 7:13-14 He is coming with the clouds of heaven TO heaven because He is going TO God the Father who is in heaven. So, your doctrinal bias is preventing you from seeing where Jesus is going in Daniel 7:13-14.

The similarities between Daniel 7:13-14 and the following description of what happened at Jesus's ascension are obvious:

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Only doctrinal bias and a lack of looking at context can prevent someone from seeing that Daniel 7:13-14 is referring to the ascension of Christ. Like the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel is not always in chronological order, but for whatever reason you don't understand that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Truth7t7, if you want to remove the smiley face, then edit that verse and put a space (with one press of the space bar on your keyboard) between the colon and the parenthesis.

Without a space it shows as a hypertext smiley face.

I have to do that edit every time I post that particular verse.

Otherwise, we could assume either that Jesus was smiling when He said it or that Matthew was smiling when he wrote that parenthetical statement. ;)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm a Pharisee? You think that anybody who actually believes what Jesus said, that the literal Temple will be destroyed, is a Pharisee? This argument doesn't deserve an answer. If you can't debate a subject with a fellow Christian without calling him names, then we have no means for discussion.

He's very childish. I recommend not wasting your time on him.

 

[Douggg]

Otherwise, we could assume either that Jesus was smiling when He said it or that Matthew was smiling when he wrote that parenthetical statement. ;)

I think everyone here takes God's word serious, regardless of eschatological position.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think everyone here takes God's word serious, regardless of eschatological position.

I didn't say otherwise. I made a little joke about the smiley and nothing more there. It looks like you missed the joke. I was acting as if the smiley was in the original manuscript and Matthew copied it down. So, just a joke.

 

[Douggg]

I didn't say otherwise. I made a little joke about the smiley and nothing more there. It looks like you missed the joke. I was acting as if the smiley was in the original manuscript and Matthew copied it down. So, just a joke.

I realize that you were making a joke. I was just giving the reason I think it should be fixed.

 

[covenantee]

So Jesus warns his Disciples that the Roman "vultures" will gather against Jerusalem to destroy the Temple. The Romans carried "eagle" standards, representing gods that they worshiped. They gathered "like eagles" around Jerusalem, the "corpse."

True. And it is a probable corroboration of Daniel 9:27, in which the original text and many translations refer to the "wing of abominations" i.e. the wing(s) of the abominable Roman armies' idolatrous eagles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn't call you a pharisee as you falsley claim, I stated your belief is like them in believing in a literal temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed

Yes you believe in a literal temple to be destroyed that took 46 years to build, just as the parishes

Yes you believe as the parishes, I didn't call you a pharisee, big difference

Sorta like calling everyone who observes the 7th day sabbath a 7th Day Adventist "Wrong"!

Or like you calling everyone who sees Matthew 24:15-21 as being related to what happened in 70 AD a preterist, including those who see the rest of the Olivet Discourse as being about ongoing things (earthquakes, wars, famines, etc.), future things (false prophets, many turning away from the faith, increase in wickedness, etc.) and the future coming of Christ at the end of the age. "Wrong"!