The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

So forgiveness is not based on penitence but rather on killing an animal or a person?

Both. There has to be a "price" paid for sins committed against the Holy God of the Holy Bible. This is seen in the Old Testament in the sacrifice of various animals, etc. where their blood had to be shed as an "offering" to God. These were really all a "shadow" of the Real Sacrifice for sins, which is in the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal God Who became Man, to bear the sins of the entire human race. ALL human beings are "sinners" and deserving of eternal punishment in hell. To escape this punishment, God has provided a Way through the Death of Jesus Christ and the shedding of Hos blood on the cross, as they Perfect and Only Sacrifice for this. The sinner must "repent of their sins and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ" (see, Mark 1:15), so that their sins can be forgiven, and they can receive the free Gift from God, of eternal Life with Himself. This is the ONLY and BEST Way that God has chosen for the salvation of any repentant and believing sinner.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Because equality is evil and not fair. Fair is playing by the rules. They are God’s Rules.

We know that God is impartial, characterized by uprightness and candor. His judgments are without bias. His unquestioned integrity will never be sullied with one taint or spot. It is written that God sends the rain on the just and the unjust.

The question is, what explains God's forbearance? Why does he not inflict punishment on sinners? Perhaps he will some day, but why does he delay?

 

[Addy]

The question is, what explains God's forbearance? Why does he not inflict punishment on sinners? Perhaps he will some day, but why does he delay?

I know this was not addressed to me... however... I looked up the definition of forbearance... and found your question to be an important one...

This is the definition I looked up...
Forbearance
1. Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience.
2. Law The act of giving a debtor more time to pay rather than immediately enforcing a debt that is due.

It is these types of topics... I believe that as Christians we should be deeply pondering... and I feel that these are the types of questions we should be studying. Sadly... many believers are distracted with what is happening in the physical world.

I love your question... I would love to hear your personal answer.

Here is mine.

Because God so loved the world... that HE gave his only begotten son, that whoever should believe in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life.

I believe God is holding back His vengeance because HE longs that all man-kind would come to Him through Christ.

I believe God is so filled with Mercy and Grace... that He pines for the world to see Him... love Him... come to Him.

I believe He has chosen to postpone punishment until the perfect time ( which HE pre-chose before the world was created. )

 

[CadyandZoe]

What is it that you say God say He does?

Tong
R2144

Ezekiel 36:25-27

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.


God tells Israel that he will rip out their hardened heart and give them a new one. (paraphrased to answer the question.) (smile) The point is, if God says he can do this for his enemies, then why not for ALL his enemies? Right?

The statement above has had a great impact on my theology and I had to think long and hard about the clear implications of the verses above and those like it. As those who seek God, we want answers to the most basic questions, one of which is, "what must I do to be saved?" The answer comes back, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." This is a true statement, without controversy amongst followers of Jesus Christ. I believe it will all my heart; God is granting mercy and salvation to those who confess and repent of sins, remain humble and contrite of heart, believe that Jesus Christ is both Lord and Savior, and that he responds to our appeals to God for mercy on that basis. All of that is true.

The question on the table is this, "how did I get that way?" Was I born a believer? Was I born with a particular character trait that allowed me to believe in Jesus, whereas my neighbor was not? Was it nature or nurture? Perhaps I was lucky enough to have the right parents, or the right teachers or the right friends? Or maybe I was lucky enough to stumble into the right church at a vulnerable time in my life?

We know that God saves those with the right inwardness; but how does one get the right inwardness?

According to God's word to Israel through Ezekiel, God is the one who miraculously gives a person the right inwardness. Having the right inwardness is a miracle of God. The mercy of God isn't restricted to his beneficence toward the penitent. It's an act of his grace to grant that a particular individual be given the requisite penitent heart. God isn't reactive; he is proactive. God doesn't wait on us; we wait on him.

I learned that the story of my salvation isn't about me.

 

[Tong2020]

Both. There has to be a "price" paid for sins committed against the Holy God of the Holy Bible. This is seen in the Old Testament in the sacrifice of various animals, etc. where their blood had to be shed as an "offering" to God. These were really all a "shadow" of the Real Sacrifice for sins, which is in the Death of the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal God Who became Man, to bear the sins of the entire human race. ALL human beings are "sinners" and deserving of eternal punishment in hell. To escape this punishment, God has provided a Way through the Death of Jesus Christ and the shedding of Hos blood on the cross, as they Perfect and Only Sacrifice for this. The sinner must "repent of their sins and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ" (see, Mark 1:15), so that their sins can be forgiven, and they can receive the free Gift from God, of eternal Life with Himself. This is the ONLY and BEST Way that God has chosen for the salvation of any repentant and believing sinner.

If Jesus Christ died as as a sacrifice offering for the forgiveness of sins of every human being that ever lived and will live, as payment for the penalty of each individual’s sins, that means no penalty for sin is left unpaid. That would mean all men will have no penalty to suffer as they had already been paid for. But that is not the case. For there will be those who will suffer the penalty of being cast into the lake of fire. So, I don’t view it that way.

Tong
R2188

 

[Tong2020]

Because equality is evil and not fair. Fair is playing by the rules. They are God’s Rules.

Equality is evil? Where is that coming from?

Please explain.

Tong
R2189

 

[CadyandZoe]

That may be unfair in our minds. But could God be unfair when the concept of unfairness falls outside the goodness of God? So, needless to say, it is an error to conclude that God is unfair because of what we judge as being unfair. For there are things which we do not see and do not know concerning the ways of God. Paul said:

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

But this we know for it is revealed to us, that God is good and just and righteous. He is not unfair.

Tong
R2145

The term "fair" , used literally, means "free from spots, specks, dirt, or imperfection; unblemished; clean; pure." Used figuratively, "fair" indicates an integrity that is pure and unblemished. And those with an unquestionable integrity are equitable, impartial, and without bias. God has all these qualities, even in terms of his love as Jesus said. Our love must be "pure" and "complete" like God's love, who not only loves his friends but also loves his enemies.

But, as I pointed out earlier, our theology must take account of his willingness and ability to remove hearts of stone and replace them with hearts of flesh. Our answer to why God doesn't treat all sinners the same must account for the fact that God, if he should choose to do so, can miraculously transform the inwardness of an individual to such a great degree that he or she will walk in his statutes and obey his commandments. The call to repentance will only be met by those who are able to answer. The doctrine of prevenient grace isn't adequate to account for passages like Ezekiel 36:25-27.

 

[CadyandZoe]

<<<...,why did Jesus need to die?>>>

Matter of God’s law and righteousness.

Besides, the forgiveness of sins is only one among a number of reasons that surrounds the death of Jesus.

Tong
R2146

How does the killing of an innocent man satisfy God's law and his righteousness? Does human law allow for an innocent man to suffer the death penalty for a crime he didn't commit?

But you raise a good question. What other reason does the Bible indicate for the death of Jesus?

 

[CadyandZoe]

If Jesus Christ died as as a sacrifice offering for the forgiveness of sins of every human being that ever lived and will live, as payment for the penalty of each individual’s sins, that means no penalty for sin is left unpaid. That would mean all men will have no penalty to suffer as they had already been paid for. But that is not the case. For there will be those who will suffer the penalty of being cast into the lake of fire. So, I don’t view it that way.

Tong
R2188

Right, exactly. So we are left with two options: limited atonement or ?

The second option is what I am exploring in this thread. Was the death of Jesus "payment"?

 

[CadyandZoe]

I know this was not addressed to me... however... I looked up the definition of forbearance... and found your question to be an important one...

This is the definition I looked up...
Forbearance
1. Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience.
2. Law The act of giving a debtor more time to pay rather than immediately enforcing a debt that is due.

It is these types of topics... I believe that as Christians we should be deeply pondering... and I feel that these are the types of questions we should be studying. Sadly... many believers are distracted with what is happening in the physical world.

I love your question... I would love to hear your personal answer.

Here is mine.

Because God so loved the world... that HE gave his only begotten son, that whoever should believe in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life.

I believe God is holding back His vengeance because HE longs that all man-kind would come to Him through Christ.

I believe God is so filled with Mercy and Grace... that He pines for the world to see Him... love Him... come to Him.

I believe He has chosen to postpone punishment until the perfect time ( which HE pre-chose before the world was created. )

Romans 2:1-11

I believe as you do, and I also believe Paul says the same thing in Romans chapter 2. The question we are discussing in this thread is why God passes over our sins. For this answer we turn to Romans 3:23-26

What is a propitiation?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That may be unfair in our minds. But could God be unfair when the concept of unfairness falls outside the goodness of God? So, needless to say, it is an error to conclude that God is unfair because of what we judge as being unfair. For there are things which we do not see and do not know concerning the ways of God. Paul said:

Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

But this we know for it is revealed to us, that God is good and just and righteous. He is not unfair.

The term "fair" , used literally, means "free from spots, specks, dirt, or imperfection; unblemished; clean; pure." Used figuratively, "fair" indicates an integrity that is pure and unblemished. And those with an unquestionable integrity are equitable, impartial, and without bias. God has all these qualities, even in terms of his love as Jesus said. Our love must be "pure" and "complete" like God's love, who not only loves his friends but also loves his enemies.

But, as I pointed out earlier, our theology must take account of his willingness and ability to remove hearts of stone and replace them with hearts of flesh. Our answer to why God doesn't treat all sinners the same must account for the fact that God, if he should choose to do so, can miraculously transform the inwardness of an individual to such a great degree that he or she will walk in his statutes and obey his commandments. The call to repentance will only be met by those who are able to answer. The doctrine of prevenient grace isn't adequate to account for passages like Ezekiel 36:25-27.

I think I know your concern. But what I am concerned is your contention that God is not fair. For which I find to be against His good nature.

In Ezekiel 36, what God said He will do, is to the house of Israel. And that, not for their sake, but for His Holy name’s sake. And why He does that only to the house of Israel and not to all the peoples of the earth God has purpose and reason which is also explained in those scriptures in Ezekiel 36.

Even with all that, what God does there written in Ezekiel 36 to the house of Israel and not to all of the peoples of the earth, does not make God to be unfair.

And as I said, this is my mind regarding that, that God is not unfair, for God is good and just and righteous, and being unfair goes against all that.

Tong
R2190

 

[Addy]

Propitiation is my FAVORITE word... It is all of the suffering... all of evil... all of sin... all of lies and deceptions... ABSORBED by CHRIST.
That is a quick definition... and does nothing to express the DEPTH and EFFECT of what propitiation actually is or looks like. We could spend our entire lives only meditating on this one thing... and still not understand the DEPTHS of suffering that Christ endured so that WE could receive eternal life.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<...,why did Jesus need to die?>>>

Matter of God’s law and righteousness.

Besides, the forgiveness of sins is only one among a number of reasons that surrounds the death of Jesus.

How does the killing of an innocent man satisfy God's law and his righteousness? Does human law allow for an innocent man to suffer the death penalty for a crime he didn't commit?

But you raise a good question. What other reason does the Bible indicate for the death of Jesus?

<<<How does the killing of an innocent man satisfy God's law and his righteousness?>>>

The killing of an innocent isn’t at all is that which satisfy God’s law and His righteousness. Let me show that with regards the law for the remission of sin. If you remember, Jesus when He was about to breath His last, He ask the Father to forgive those who have crucified Him. So, clearly it is not that. Rather, the death and shedding of the blood of animal sacrifices offered in the law that God required for the sinner who repents and seek to be forgiven to make, for the remission of his sins, is what is satisfied in the sacrificial death of Jesus. For we have learned that the law foreshadows a reality, that is, Christ. And the fulfilling of that in Christ is righteousness and speaks of His righteousness.

<<<But you raise a good question. What other reason does the Bible indicate for the death of Jesus?>>>

I am glad someone finally give attention to that. For it has now been quite a while that nobody seems to give attention to it, as though there is nothing else but the forgiveness of sins that the death of Jesus Christ was for. So thank you for that.

Here’s one other than for the remission of sins. Besides that the death of Christ served as a sacrifice offering for the forgiveness and remission of sins for His people, His sheep, His church, it also served as a sacrifice offering for atonement for the sins of the whole world.

Tong
R2191

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If Jesus Christ died as as a sacrifice offering for the forgiveness of sins of every human being that ever lived and will live, as payment for the penalty of each individual’s sins, that means no penalty for sin is left unpaid. That would mean all men will have no penalty to suffer as they had already been paid for. But that is not the case. For there will be those who will suffer the penalty of being cast into the lake of fire. So, I don’t view it that way.

Right, exactly. So we are left with two options: limited atonement or ?

The second option is what I am exploring in this thread. Was the death of Jesus "payment"?

My view is quite different. It is atonement for the whole world and remission of sin for those whom the Father had chosen to give to the Son to raise up at the last day.

And it is also “payment” or “ransom”.

Tong
R2192

 

[Tong2020]

Romans 2:1-11

I believe as you do, and I also believe Paul says the same thing in Romans chapter 2. The question we are discussing in this thread is why God passes over our sins. For this answer we turn to Romans 3:23-26

What is a propitiation?

Also @Addy

Propitiation is another word for atonement which means appeasement.

Tong
R2193

 

[Addy]

Propitiation is another word for atonement which means appeasement.

I did not do the definition justice... I realize that. It remains my favorite word when reflecting on the beauty and goodness of Christ.

 

[Addy]

It is said in scriptures, according to the law, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. But I take note that every blood that is shed under the law was offered by an individual Jew who seek forgiveness, was shed for him only, and that no blood is shed for those who does not make the offering. So, it is my view that Jesus, with regards such sacrifice for the remission of sin, shed His blood only for those who seek for forgiveness and not for those who does not. It would be a waste and is useless, senseless, and unwise, for Jesus to shed His blood for those who seek not forgiveness.

I was trying to figure out where exactly it is that you are in disagreement with some... I was too lazy to read the entire thread...LOL

I think this is it... You do not believe that Jesus shed His blood for those who do NOT seek forgiveness... and the argument coming back at you is that Jesus shed His blood for ALL mankind... repentant or not ?? Am I correct??

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It is said in scriptures, according to the law, without shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. But I take note that every blood that is shed under the law was offered by an individual Jew who seek forgiveness, was shed for him only, and that no blood is shed for those who does not make the offering. So, it is my view that Jesus, with regards such sacrifice for the remission of sin, shed His blood only for those who seek for forgiveness and not for those who does not. It would be a waste and is useless, senseless, and unwise, for Jesus to shed His blood for those who seek not forgiveness.

I was trying to figure out where exactly it is that you are in disagreement with some... I was too lazy to read the entire thread...LOL

I think this is it... You do not believe that Jesus shed His blood for those who do NOT seek forgiveness... and the argument coming back at you is that Jesus shed His blood for ALL mankind... repentant or not ?? Am I correct??

My view is different from others in at least two areas. First is that most see the death of Christ as only affecting the forgiveness or remission of sins, while I see the death of Christ as affecting not only that but more, like the atonement for sinners. Second is that, Most take atonement as no different from forgiveness of sin, while I take them as different from each other.

With regards atonement, Christ died for the whole world. But with regards the forgiveness of sin, Christ died only for His sheep or His church or His people or those whom the Father gave Him to raise at the last day.

Tong
R2194

 

[Wrangler]

It certainly doesn't, it implies His will. If His will is that all men be saved, why would He pass over any man?

The call is for "whosoever will" and whoever responds to the Gospel call is accepted! They are the chosen!

So, you are a universalist, then?

 

[Wrangler]

Why God hardened Pharaoh is clearly stated in scriptures. And it’s not really about judgment, but about the sovereign will and purpose/s of God.

My Study Bible says it was about Judgment. My pastor say the meaning of 'hardening' the heart is to wring out what is already there.