The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[brightfame52]

How can I understand what isn't logical?

I can't help you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nothing you say here validates your point. You're arguing with yourself. Saying the same thing over and over again while also agreeing to an opposing reality is either stubborn or deliberately obtuse. You said yourself that a person is lost until they come to Christ for salvation. This leaves no third option ("middle ground"). :)

So, I will not repeat myself again here. It is obvious that you do not accept my viewpoint; which does not in and of itself make my viewpoint invalid.

 

[Wrangler]

So, I will not repeat myself again here. It is obvious that you do not accept my viewpoint; which does not in and of itself make my viewpoint invalid.

No, what makes your viewpoint invalid, in and of itself, is that it is inherently contradictory.

Do you realize that which is IN cannot be OUT? (Sure, change reference points, play word games but there it is)

 

[justbyfaith]

No, what makes your viewpoint invalid, in and of itself, is that it is inherently contradictory.

Do you realize that which is IN cannot be OUT? (Sure, change reference points, play word games but there it is)

I am not going to argue my point any further. You either get it or you don't.

It may even be a heart issue rather than an intellectual one.

 

[Wrangler]

I am not going to argue my point any further. You either get it or you don't.

Another doublespeak post or Appeal to False Alternative. I get it and reject contradictions.

 

[Tong2020]

No, Jesus died for all; but not all avail themselves of what He did for them, appropriating it by faith.

It seems that many here only see the death of Jesus to do and accomplish only one purpose, when there is more than one and which are clear in scriptures.

Tong
R2053

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I am a follower of Christ and not of anyone else. Not that I see in scriptures what you see that I become your follower, or that what other say a calvinist sees, that I am a follower of Calvin or is a calvinist.

But I understand why and when one gets into that excuse in the middle of a conversation or argument. They appeal to something from out of topic like saying I am a calvinist to divert, if not, to evade. Well, that sure is indicative of no refutation or counter argument.

The suffix -ist does not mean "follower of." Look it up. If you believe in the basic teachings of John Calvin on predestination, you might want to get used to being referred to as a "Calvinist" or, at least, a "proponent of Calvinism." Otherwise (unless you keep your sentiments on predestination to yourself) you're going to have a rough row to hoe in getting along with other Christians. Nothing you can say in response to this can change reality. Your point of view is not going to change millions of people's habits and actions. Although somehow I feel quite strongly that you will try.

<<<If you believe in the basic teachings of John Calvin on predestination, you might want to get used to being referred to as a "Calvinist" or, at least, a "proponent of Calvinism.">>>

I don’t get to believe what others teach, for it is scriptures that I read and study. It is what God teaches in scriptures that I get to learn and believe. I am convinced and persuaded by the Holy Spirit and not some men.

Tong
R2054

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You may think one can resist if you want, but not when it is God who works in one’s heart to a conviction and persuasion unto belief.

God does give to the Son by a drawing that is not bound to fail but by a drawing that is certain and sure. Verse 45 speaks of them as taught by the Father and learning from Him. There is nothing ignored there in the verse. The work of the Father mentioned in v.45 comes with a conclusion, that everyone who hears and learns from the Father will come to Christ. They are those who are drawn by the Father. And He fails not. He draws according to His will and not according to the will of the one He draws. For His drawing starts with Him and not with the one He draws. To think that His drawing depends on the will of one He draws is to think that God is dependent and subordinate and submits to man’s will. Not even Saul, who considers himself the chief of sinners, could muster enough of his will power to not be fully convinced and persuaded by the Lord Jesus Christ of the truth that he is brought to repentance towards faith in Him, in Him whom he does not only believe but works so hard to persecute. That is the convincing power of God and there is no man who resist the Lord too hard for Him to draw that He should fail, if God wills to draw him. And believe it or not, He does it without dragging or forcing the man.

Lol, irresistible grace. Too bad it's not in the Bible.

Call it what you want, it does not change anything. However, the danger is not in giving it a name, but in that in doing, you may well lead others into thinking that it is what you call it when it is not. And that is simply then a strawman in the making.

It is in the Bible you say. Yes, after pointing to a strawman, one could easily say, it is not in the Bible.

Tong
R2055

 

[BarneyFife]

It is obvious that you do not accept my viewpoint; which does not in and of itself make my viewpoint invalid.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course, it does.

 

[BarneyFife]

@Tong2020
@justbyfaith

I find it amusing, if not hilarious, when folks pretend they're not influenced by human teachers. :)

 

[justbyfaith]

Don't be ridiculous. Of course, it does.

Nope. :cool:

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Your understanding is inconsistent with the truth that salvation is God’s work and not man’s.

No, it isn't.

Yes it is. If one’s understanding of salvation is that man does something, something that he credits to man and thinking that because he had done such a thing, that he is saved which otherwise he will not be saved. Is that not your understanding and is that not what you say and teach? At least that’s what I am gathering from your postings.

Tong
R2056

 

[Renniks]

Call it what you want, it does not change anything. However, the danger is not in giving it a name, but in that in doing, you may well lead others into thinking that it is what you call it when it is not. And that is simply then a strawman in the making.

It is in the Bible you say. Yes, after pointing to a strawman, one could easily say, it is not in the Bible.

Tong
R2054

It's what you are teaching. Others have explained it better perhaps, but it's the same thing.
It's part of the calvinists tulip.

 

[Renniks]

Yes it is. If one’s understanding of salvation is that man does something, something that he credits to man and thinking that because he had done such a thing, that he is saved which otherwise he will not be saved. Is that not your understanding and is that not what you say and teach? At least that’s what I am gathering from your postings.

Tong
R2056

God does 100 percent of the work of salvation. He just has a condition before he will do that work. Our faith doesn't merit salvation, but God chose to save on that basis.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes it is. If one’s understanding of salvation is that man does something, something that he credits to man and thinking that because he had done such a thing, that he is saved which otherwise he will not be saved. Is that not your understanding and is that not what you say and teach? At least that’s what I am gathering from your postings.

Tong
R2056

I would only say that God does not make a person born again against their will.

 

[Tong2020]

So what condition are these folks in while they are thus being led--lost or born again? And how long is this "short period of time" that encapsulates the "middle ground?"

I think you might get an answer from JBF, but you will just not find it in scriptures.

Tong
R2057

 

[justbyfaith]

I think you might get an answer from JBF, but you will just not find it in scriptures.

Tong
R2057

So, your belief is that a man is born again / regenerated and then he receives Christ, correct?

Is that the order that we find in John 1:12?

 

[Tong2020]

It's just too simple @Renniks
The gift of God is Christ, how do we receive a "gift" unless we have our hands and hearts open to accept it. If the Creator of the universe hands me such a gift, far be it from me to not accept it! We know He died for all or any any who call on His Name and put their total faith in Him amen.

It’s a matter of perspective perhaps.

God had done something to save mankind, though not all. The Son had done something were man has nothing to do with, except their having sinned, for mankind. He did an act of righteousness alone without the participation of man nor any help from man.

God offered not the Son to me nor any individual for salvation. I was once a lost soul, a sinner. I don’t see God offering it as a gift that I may or may not accept or take, for being a sinner, more so knowing that I have a fallen nature wherein every intents of the thoughts of my heart is evil continually even from my youth, that I may get myself saved.

With regards salvation, what I see God did, is give, not offer. It is all about giving and not offering. He gave grace and truth through Jesus Christ. He did not offer grace and truth, but gave it. There is a difference between offering and giving. The former only would be effective if taken and wasted if not. But the latter needs no taking to be effective, and is effective without condition, and is received by those to whom God gives it, not really different from the way that the Christian is given spiritual gifts according to the will of the Holy Spirit, and receives it without a condition that he must first do. What God freely gives is received through faith, not through works.

I acknowledged that I once had a fallen nature. And that with it, I was rendered as though was a dead man, without life in me. That unless God quickens me, I remain to be as dead, as lifeless. I acknowledged that I was in a situation where I could do nothing, more so, to have life, for so I was as dead. Thankfully, God, according to His wisdom and divine nature, in His Godhood, had done something to get me out from my situation, through Jesus Christ. And that not for anything that I have done nor for anything that I will do, for there is nothing that I can do as I was as dead. He did for me what I could not.

Did He do that for each and every man? I learn from scriptures that He did not. Why is that? God perfectly knows, but I know not perfectly as He does. What I do know is what scriptures says, that His salvation is by the election of grace.

Tong
R2058

 

[justbyfaith]

I think you might get an answer from JBF, but you will just not find it in scriptures.

Tong
R2057

So, your belief is that a man is born again / regenerated and then he receives Christ, correct?

Is that the order that we find in John 1:12?

 

[Tong2020]

Exodus 8:15
"When Pharaoh saw that there was relief, however, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said."

1 Samuel 6:6
"Why harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened theirs? When He afflicted them, did they not send the people on their way as they departed?"

It seems like a combination of God and Pharaoh here. God knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart so, God gave him up to a hard heart to serve His own purposes perhaps?

And yet it is clear in scriptures also that God purposely hardened Pharaoh’s heart. It is also clear in scriptures that God purposely hardened Israel as a whole.

What does that tell us? That while God is Him who works out His purposes, it is not by force nor is by making choices for people.

The position that God hardens Pharaoh’s heart because He knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart, sorry to say, to me is senseless and makes no real difference. For what difference is there for God to need to harden Pharaoh’s heart when God knows that which is certain to happen, that Pharaoh will harden his heart? But this is what Paul said regarding this, referring to what God said concerning that, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

Tong
R2059