The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I really have no stark objection or disagreement of what you posted except that which I commented on. That while I agree that Jesus did not die for all men, but only in the matter of justification, for as I contended, Jesus’ death also was for the whole world in a different sense.

Yes you do, since u believe Christ died for all without exception

Then you are not really reading with understand what I posted in all my response post to you on this subject.

Tong
R2049

 

[Renniks]

Post 456, did u want to discuss it , the points made ?

You said:
"And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception."
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:1–7 —

God’s intention is to provide a payment for all people which is only effective when the individual savingly believes.
Provisional Atonement: Christ died for the purpose of providing payment for the sin of all people making it possible for any and all to be saved. God loves all and wants all to be saved. In His love for all, he sent Christ to provide payment for the sin of all. Belief in Christ is necessary, however, to receive the benefits of Christ’s death and be saved. The gospel should be preached to all, and, upon hearing the gospel, any can come because Christ died for the sins of all people in the world.

Tim. 4:10 – God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. So, there is a sense in which Christ is savior of unbelievers (i.e., he died for their sin, though they reject His payment on their behalf), yet a special sense in which he is savior of believers (by faith, they receive Christ’s payment for their own sin).

2 Peter 2:1 – refers clearly to unregenerate people as “denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Or as I like to say, conditional atonement.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
No it does not say that.

Remember what God said of fallen man, that every intents of the thoughts of his hearts is evil continually even from his youth. The generation of Noah speaks well and testifies to that truth. What could be expected of the generations after Noah? The answer is obvious and certain. Now, would you expect any of fallen man, without the help and working of God, be able to do the righteous act of genuinely denying himself and surrender all of him to God and obey His will? The answer could be seen in the children of Israel. Realize what God had done to Israel, even showing them with their own eyes what mighty things He can do and that there is no power or authority on earth that could go against His power. He had showed them His faithfulness, power, glory, righteousness, and holiness. But despite all of that He had done for them and have shown to them with their own eyes, they have proven what fallen man is, incapable of freeing himself from the bondage of sin that dwells in his flesh. God sent them the prophet Moses, whom they have witnessed with their own eyes how God work miracles through him, have seen and heard God speak to him, yet they have shown to not able to truly believe and continue believing him. And now you want us to believe that the fallen man, where nothing had changed in them, and even had been hardened, that when Jesus was sent to them, that they later were able to truly believe (receive) Him and continue to believe Him? No sir. Why there were those who were able and said to have received Him, is without question, because of God’s doing and working. This is one of the reasons why I don’t agree with your view. And with all of that, my view is that, unless God change the heart of one fallen man, he could not be able to receive the Word that became flesh, that is, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. And that change is what John speaks about in John 1:13.

It’s not the other way around as you contend, and that could just not be.

John 1:12 does in fact say that we receive Christ first and then are given the right / power to become the children of God (be born of God). Read the verse again. It is right there for you to read.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I think that your preconceived bias prevents you from seeing this scripture for what it is and taking it at face value. Thus you have to eisegete the text.

I say the same to you.

Clearly we differ in our take of v.12-13. However, in my take, it is consistent with the truth that the salvation of any man is God’s work and not man’s.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Jesus said clearly, “This is the work of God”. What is the work of God could not be the work of man.

I think that you are clearly in debate mode. Otherwise you would see my point and concede that it is true that the people asked Jesus, "What must we do that we might work the works of God?" To which Jesus answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent."

Not really that I am in a debate mode. I am just stating the obvious and the common sense. But it seems that is not common sense to you.

Tong2020 said: ↑
When was that? Was it before you believed or after? Was it while you were yet an unbeliever or after you believed?

After I first professed becoming a Christian; but before I received the second benefit.

There are those who believe that the second benefit is first salvation; and if that be the case, then I asked God to do it before I was saved.

So it was after you believed. That means, after you received God’s mercy, which means you were already a vessel of His mercy. So why pray to God to make you a vessel of mercy when you already are? Unless you believe that when you believed, that you still aren’t a vessel of His mercy.

Tong
R2050

 

[brightfame52]

You said:
"And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception."
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:1–7 —

God’s intention is to provide a payment for all people which is only effective when the individual savingly believes.
Provisional Atonement: Christ died for the purpose of providing payment for the sin of all people making it possible for any and all to be saved. God loves all and wants all to be saved. In His love for all, he sent Christ to provide payment for the sin of all. Belief in Christ is necessary, however, to receive the benefits of Christ’s death and be saved. The gospel should be preached to all, and, upon hearing the gospel, any can come because Christ died for the sins of all people in the world.

Tim. 4:10 – God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. So, there is a sense in which Christ is savior of unbelievers (i.e., he died for their sin, though they reject His payment on their behalf), yet a special sense in which he is savior of believers (by faith, they receive Christ’s payment for their own sin).

2 Peter 2:1 – refers clearly to unregenerate people as “denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Or as I like to say, conditional atonement.

Okay, you still don't seem to understand the points.

 

[justbyfaith]

I say the same to you.

Clearly we differ in our take of v.12-13. However, in my take, it is consistent with the truth that the salvation of any man is God’s work and not man’s.

And my understanding is not inconsistent with that idea. Regeneration is the work of the Lord, that He does not accomplish in a man against his will. For Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a gentleman.

Our part is to receive Christ; His part is to come into our hearts and make us new creatures in Him.

If He didn't do that, we would merely be "attempting to turn over a new leaf" and would also not be very successful at it.

So it was after you believed. That means, after you received God’s mercy, which means you were already a vessel of His mercy. So why pray to God to make you a vessel of mercy when you already are? Unless you believe that when you believed, that you still aren’t a vessel of His mercy.

Because God is more likely to answer such a prayer if my heart is right with Him (1 John 3:22).

And also, God can answer prayers by working in our immediate past; from the perspective of predestination (Isaiah 65:24).

 

[brightfame52]

Then you are not really reading with understand what I posted in all my response post to you on this subject.

Tong
R2049

Like wlse

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I say the same to you.

Clearly we differ in our take of v.12-13. However, in my take, it is consistent with the truth that the salvation of any man is God’s work and not man’s.

And my understanding is not inconsistent with that idea. Regeneration is the work of the Lord, that He does not accomplish in a man against his will. For Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a gentleman.

Our part is to receive Christ; His part is to come into our hearts and make us new creatures in Him.

If He didn't do that, we would merely be "attempting to turn over a new leaf" and would also not be very successful at it.

Your understanding is inconsistent with the truth that salvation is God’s work and not man’s.

Regeneration is God’s work and is not man’s work nor could it be. For only God has the power to regenerate and man that is regenerated is dead. And one who is said to be dead, can’t do anything, more so has a will that he could be taken as to participate in his regeneration.

Tong
R2051

 

[Tong2020]

Like wlse

Well I read what you posted and your position is that Jesus did not die for all men without exception. But what you say is my position, is not what you can read in my posts.

Tong
R2052

 

[BarneyFife]

The halfway point is when a man is being drawn to Christ and it only lasts for a short period of time in which the person has an opportunity to guve their heart to Christ or else ultimately reject Him.

So you're adding more speculative theory to an already unbiblical teaching?
Where is the biblical doctrine of the "short period of time" found in the Bible?
Is it anything like the "short period of time" that Noah preached to the antediluvians?

A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart.

You need to read your Bible a little but more extensively.

Why do debaters of religion say things like this? I've been reading my Bible extensively for decades. So have many others with whom you have disagreements. What is the purpose of such a remark?

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is indeed a reality in the Bible.

What's with the straw man? I thought we were disagreeing about the existence of a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again. (?)

I studied it out.

So you had no influence from any teacher on this matter of a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again?

Right...to be almost saved is to be totally lost.

Then we're agreed on this much.

Those who are being drawn by Christ are still lost, until they make a decision to receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

Again, couldn't agree more.

It is not vain philosophy that I am preaching to you; but biblical doctrine.

So where in what I have quoted from you here is the biblical doctrine of a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again?

 

[BarneyFife]

@justbyfaith
2 Corinthians 6:1-2 does not substantiate a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again.

 

[BarneyFife]

I am a follower of Christ and not of anyone else. Not that I see in scriptures what you see that I become your follower, or that what other say a calvinist sees, that I am a follower of Calvin or is a calvinist.

But I understand why and when one gets into that excuse in the middle of a conversation or argument. They appeal to something from out of topic like saying I am a calvinist to divert, if not, to evade. Well, that sure is indicative of no refutation or counter argument.

Tong
R2035

The suffix -ist does not mean "follower of." Look it up. If you believe in the basic teachings of John Calvin on predestination, you might want to get used to being referred to as a "Calvinist" or, at least, a "proponent of Calvinism." Otherwise (unless you keep your sentiments on predestination to yourself) you're going to have a rough row to hoe in getting along with other Christians. Nothing you can say in response to this can change reality. Your point of view is not going to change millions of people's habits and actions. Although somehow I feel quite strongly that you will try.

 

[BarneyFife]

But I understand why and when one gets into that excuse in the middle of a conversation or argument. They appeal to something from out of topic like saying I am a calvinist to divert, if not, to evade. Well, that sure is indicative of no refutation or counter argument.

Ironic coming from you.

 

[Renniks]

You may think one can resist if you want, but not when it is God who works in one’s heart to a conviction and persuasion unto belief.

God does give to the Son by a drawing that is not bound to fail but by a drawing that is certain and sure. Verse 45 speaks of them as taught by the Father and learning from Him. There is nothing ignored there in the verse. The work of the Father mentioned in v.45 comes with a conclusion, that everyone who hears and learns from the Father will come to Christ. They are those who are drawn by the Father. And He fails not. He draws according to His will and not according to the will of the one He draws. For His drawing starts with Him and not with the one He draws. To think that His drawing depends on the will of one He draws is to think that God is dependent and subordinate and submits to man’s will. Not even Saul, who considers himself the chief of sinners, could muster enough of his will power to not be fully convinced and persuaded by the Lord Jesus Christ of the truth that he is brought to repentance towards faith in Him, in Him whom he does not only believe but works so hard to persecute. That is the convincing power of God and there is no man who resist the Lord too hard for Him to draw that He should fail, if God wills to draw him. And believe it or not, He does it without dragging or forcing the man.

Tong
R2047

Lol, irresistible grace. Too bad it's not in the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your understanding is inconsistent with the truth that salvation is God’s work and not man’s.

No, it isn't.

What's with the straw man? I thought we were disagreeing about the existence of a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again. (?)

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is the halfway point in which a person is shown their need of a Saviour and is enabled to make a decision to either receive or reject Christ.

So you had no influence from any teacher on this matter of a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again?

No other teacher than the Holy Ghost.

So where in what I have quoted from you here is the biblical doctrine of a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again?

In that, God, by His Holy Spirit, is able to help a person come to Christ where he or she was previously unable because of their lost condition.

@justbyfaith
2 Corinthians 6:1-2 does not substantiate a "halfway point" or "middle ground" between being in a lost condition and being born again.

Sure it does. Totally depraved persons cannot do anything pleasing to God on their own so they need the help (succouring) of God in order to come to Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

I'm not sure I got an answer to those who advocate in the affirmative. IF Jesus died for the world with no exceptions, then universalism is correct, right?

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm not sure I got an answer to those who advocate in the affirmative. IF Jesus died for the world with no exceptions, then universalism is correct, right?

No, Jesus died for all; but not all avail themselves of what He did for them, appropriating it by faith.

 

[CharismaticLady]

1 John 1:8 does not have to be talking about only the unbeliever in order for us to be able to have victory over and freedom from sin.

The element of sin within us can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Thus, we do not have to commit sin as believers; though we have sin dwelling in our mortal flesh.

You need to know what John means in this chapter, not your own reasoning. Otherwise, you will carnally reason away all the truths in Scripture. If you keep telling yourself you have darkness in you (vs. 6) but are still saved you'll fall prey to the false doctrine that now rules the Church. Those who willfully sin are of the devil, making them slaves to him. But we are not of the darkness, but of the light, IF the Spirit of Christ is in them. Not all professing to be Christians have the light in them. They believe the lies and that they have a relationship with God, but still walk in darkness. I did for 30 years. I KNOW the difference. I'm sorry, I really had hope for you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm not sure I got an answer to those who advocate in the affirmative. IF Jesus died for the world with no exceptions, then universalism is correct, right?

There is always a condition to God's promises. In this case it is "whosoever believes in Him." Universalists believe in a form of purgatory, where there is still hope to believe after death. Mormons are baptized for the dead, doing something similar, making the non-Mormons who have died, Mormons, their "true" Church.

 

[justbyfaith]

You need to know what John means in this chapter, not your own reasoning. Otherwise, you will carnally reason away all the truths in Scripture. If you keep telling yourself you have darkness in you (vs. 6) but are still saved you'll fall prey to the false doctrine that now rules the Church. Those who willfully sin are of the devil, making them slaves to him. But we are not of the darkness, but of the light, IF the Spirit of Christ is in them. Not all professing to be Christians have the light in them. They believe the lies and that they have a relationship with God, but still walk in darkness. I did for 30 years. I KNOW the difference. I'm sorry, I really had hope for you.

See Romans 7:18 and Galatians 5:17.

If the latter verse is saying that you cannot sin, it is also saying that you would sin; and the former verse tells us that in you, that is, in your flesh, dwells no good thing.

 

[CharismaticLady]

See Romans 7:18 and Galatians 5:17.

If the latter verse is saying that you cannot sin, it is also saying that you would sin; and the former verse tells us that in you, that is, in your flesh, dwells no good thing.

You do know that Romans 7:18 is before Christ and those under the law don't you? But Romans 8:2 tells us that the SPIRIT frees us from sin of the flesh. And Romans 8:9 tells us that we are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. People are either in the flesh or in the Spirit, carnal or spiritual.

When we are born again, that means that Christ has created a new nature in us that is completely separate from the old nature we were once bound to. The new nature has a super-sensitized conscience where the laws of God are written that when followed keeps us from sinning willfully. It is very uncomfortable to go against your new conscience. The old conscience that allowed you to sin is rendered dead and mummified as long as you stay abiding in Christ.