The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[justbyfaith]

It should be clear that while those who receive Christ are in fact born of God in John 1:12-13, they are not born of God until after they receive Him.

They are not born of God first and then receive Him.

It says,

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Not, "But as many as became the sons of God, to them gave He power to receive Him."

 

[justbyfaith]

That is clearly a misrepresentation and a false accusation and bearing false witness.

Tong
R2038

So, you're saying that you don't agree with Calvinism on any issue?

In saying that, you would be lying.

Because we are not stupid here. We know what Calvinism teaches and we can see that you are attempting to teach the same.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Just like pharaoh. He hardened his heart first, and then God hardened him farther so he could use him to free israel.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)
11. So I'm asking you: They haven't stumbled so that they've fallen permanently, have they? Absolutely not! But salvation has come to the Gentiles by their failure, in order to make Israel jealous.

Again, I ask you. Does that make sense? Does it make sense to say that God hardened a heart, when the heart was already hardened? Forget about theology for the moment and think about how this would sound in other areas of life.

For instance, two people run the lawn mower over the grass, one right after the other. Did they both cut the grass? I don't think so. The first person cut the grass. The second person had nothing left to cut.

Wife goes to the gas station to fill the tank with gas, only to find out that Husband had already filled the tank a day earlier. Which one filled the tank?

Junior decides to do his laundry, but finds that mother has already cleaned and folded the clothes. Junior didn't need to fold the clothes because mother had already done the job. Who cleaned the clothes? Who actually cleaned the clothes?

The general principle is this, one can not claim to have done a task when the task has already been completed by someone else.

The book of Exodus records that God intends to harden Pharaoh's heart. Subsequently, it records that Pharaoh hardened his heart. How do we explain this apparent contradiction? Did God perform the task or did Pharaoh? Solution: they both did.

Sometimes the Bible gives us a window into reality from God's perspective as the transcendent creator. Remember, God doesn't cause things to happen the way we cause things to happen, because with respect to God and his creation, he is like the author of a novel. Tolkien didn't cause Frodo to leave home on a quest; he wrote Frodo leaving home. Likewise, everything that God does is an act of creation. Everything that happens within our reality, happens because God speaks it into existence. Pharaoh hardened his heart when God spoke that event into existence. The Bible is trying to tell you that behind all of reality is God speaking it into existence.

In Romans 9:19-24, Paul is giving you a picture of God in his transcendence. God is to man as a potter is to a pot. The potter is not unjust when he uses the same lump of dough to create both a toilet and a vase. The potter has every right to create one pot to be used as a toilet and the other pot to be used as a vase. Likewise, God is not unjust to create one person on which to show his wrath and another person on which to demonstrate his mercy. And since God is creating each person for a specific purpose, then "it doesn't depend on the man who wills or the man who runs."

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe that because I asked the Lord to make me into an honourable and holy vessel of mercy, that He did so.

For it is written,

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That may be your view, but not in my view. For v. 13 ells us about those people mentioned in v.12 as people who WERE born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Yet, in verse 12, it says that a man receives Christ first, and then is born of God; not the other way around.

No it does not say that.

Remember what God said of fallen man, that every intents of the thoughts of his hearts is evil continually even from his youth. The generation of Noah speaks well and testifies to that truth. What could be expected of the generations after Noah? The answer is obvious and certain. Now, would you expect any of fallen man, without the help and working of God, be able to do the righteous act of genuinely denying himself and surrender all of him to God and obey His will? The answer could be seen in the children of Israel. Realize what God had done to Israel, even showing them with their own eyes what mighty things He can do and that there is no power or authority on earth that could go against His power. He had showed them His faithfulness, power, glory, righteousness, and holiness. But despite all of that He had done for them and have shown to them with their own eyes, they have proven what fallen man is, incapable of freeing himself from the bondage of sin that dwells in his flesh. God sent them the prophet Moses, whom they have witnessed with their own eyes how God work miracles through him, have seen and heard God speak to him, yet they have shown to not able to truly believe and continue believing him. And now you want us to believe that the fallen man, where nothing had changed in them, and even had been hardened, that when Jesus was sent to them, that they later were able to truly believe (receive) Him and continue to believe Him? No sir. Why there were those who were able and said to have received Him, is without question, because of God’s doing and working. This is one of the reasons why I don’t agree with your view. And with all of that, my view is that, unless God change the heart of one fallen man, he could not be able to receive the Word that became flesh, that is, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. And that change is what John speaks about in John 1:13.

It’s not the other way around as you contend, and that could just not be.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Did Jesus, who knows who are His sheep, said He will give His life and shed <fify> His blood for those who are not His sheep or for His sheep (John 10). Don’t you believe that everything that God does and say does has a good purpose and does not go back to Him unaccomplished, but fails and wasted? Well,...

Obviously Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and therefore He shed His blood for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and gave His life as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6). Therefore, if people reject what He did for them, and not all come to faith in Him and receive the effects of the blood so that they are forgiven, was not the blood that was shed for them wasted?

Yet God shed that blood.

It is another reason why rejecting the sacrifice of Jesus is such a heinous sin in God's eyes; for it is spurning the price that He paid for you so that in many cases and for many people, He suffered in vain.

Yes, there are scriptures that says Jesus died for the whole world. But that should not be taken to refer to His death as being a sin offering for the forgiveness of sins of the whole world, but be taken as a sacrifice of atonement. Such an atonement was needed to appease God so that His wrath should not come upon mankind and not destroy them all as He had done at one time in the past. Such was also foreshadowed in the law of Moses where the priest offers a sacrifice for atonement for the sins of Israel continually every year.

Now, the death of Christ was also a sin offering as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of those whom God had given Him to raise up in the last day, that is, for His sheep, His people, His church. And that is not for the whole world.

Tong2020 said: ↑
what does “come” to Christ there means?

To "come" to Christ means to come to Him in faith and receive His salvation, as I define it.

That’s good. In other words, the matter of coming to Him is the matter of believing in Him. Now try to bring that in John 6:37,44,45,65 in place of “come to Me” and you will be able to see what Jesus was saying all along.

Tong2020 said: ↑
For sure it is about being drawn to Christ, but is not the same drawing as that in John 6:44.

Why wouldn't it be?

I have already explained that in one of my reply post to you.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now that is contradictory.

If it is the work of God, it could not be the work of man.

Look at John 6:28. They asked Him, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" To which He answered, "This is the work of God, that ye believe in Him whom He sent."

Jesus said clearly, “This is the work of God”. What is the work of God could not be the work of man.

Tong
R2042

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That is clearly a misrepresentation and a false accusation and bearing false witness.

So, you're saying that you don't agree with Calvinism on any issue?

In saying that, you would be lying.

Because we are not stupid here. We know what Calvinism teaches and we can see that you are attempting to teach the same.

What I am saying is that you have misrepresented me, accuse falsely, and bear false witness of me. For I never once made reference to Calvin nor to Calvinist, not to any doctrine of Calvin that you every now and then bring up in our exchanges.

<<<So, you're saying that you don't agree with Calvinism on any issue?>>>

Why would I say such things when I never made reference in any way shape or form of Calvin and his doctrines that you say?

It matters not to me whether my view regarding an issue is in agreement with Calvin or not.

<<<In saying that, you would be lying.>>>

How so? You really want to make it appear that I am lying? Wow!

<<<Because we are not stupid here. We know what Calvinism teaches and we can see that you are attempting to teach the same.>>>

Who do you refer to as the “we”?

And I am not saying nor have said you are stupid. Wow, such attitude you have there.

Perhaps you know what Calvin teaches. So? Does that give you the right to label me and misrepresent me as being a calvinist or a follower of Calvin? If there is anything that I am attempting to say here is what I believe is the truth according to scriptures, at least in my view and reading of scriptures.

Tong
R2043

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, Romans 5:18 speaks of the justification of those who are in Christ.

But there is also another truth about the the sacrificial death of Jesus, besides it as justification for them who are in Him. That is, His death was an atoning sacrifice not only for them who are in Him, bit also for the whole world. In this respect, He died for the whole world.

That is why I said in my other post that, Jesus died for the whole world as a sacrifice for atonement, and He died for His sheep, His people, His church, as a sin offering and sacrifice for the forgiveness of their sins.

Tong
R2041

You have gone astray already on my post comments.

 

[Tong2020]

You have gone astray already on my post comments.

What do you mean?

Tong
R2044

 

[brightfame52]

What do you mean?

Tong
R2044

I mean you went astray, and started talking about things I didnt talk about.

 

[Tong2020]

I mean you went astray, and started talking about things I didnt talk about.

I really have no stark objection or disagreement of what you posted except that which I commented on. That while I agree that Jesus did not die for all men, bit only in the matter of justification, for as I contended, Jesus’ death also was for the whole world in a different sense.

Tong
R2045

 

[Tong2020]

I believe that because I asked the Lord to make me into an honourable and holy vessel of mercy, that He did so.

For it is written,

Mat 7:7, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8, For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

When was that? Was it before you believed or after? Was it while you were yet an unbeliever or after you believed?

Tong
R2046

 

[Renniks]

And yes, nobody is saying that being drawn equates to being dragged. That’s your straw man in the making. To be drawn in John 6:44 means to being convinced and persuaded of the truth that the Father reveals and teach to them whom He gives to the Son to raise up in the last day.

If it doesn't equate to being dragged, then we can resist. And you are focused on one or two verses while ignoring the verses that teach that we have to do something, we have to learn. We have to believe. Seems you idolize a deterministic version of God so much you can't see any other possibility.

 

[Renniks]

You refer to Isa.5 and mt.23, yet they speak not of the Israel that is of the children of promise, but of the children of Israel according to the flesh. That Israel is a picture of the heart of fallen man, stiff-necked and stubborn and a contrary people. That there is nothing, external to them, that would make of them to be a righteous and holy people. With that, the salvation of God is in order, that is, by election of grace. As it had been shown through them, despite the things God had done for them and for which they have seen and experienced all throughout their many generations, if only of themselves, if only of their own free will, they will all end up to be an unholy and wicked people, not different from the rest of the peoples of the earth, whose path is towards destruction and hell.

These were God's chosen people, yes, and they still used their freedom to rebel against him. I never said God could not and did not work out his plan through them despite that disobedience. God stated what he desired them to be, says he did everything possible, and they still didn't produce the fruit he wanted from them. That's good enough for me. I'll listen to what God said about their choices, instead of some strange man-made determanistic theory.

 

[Renniks]

And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception.

Then, chances are, he didn't die for you.

 

[brightfame52]

I really have no stark objection or disagreement of what you posted except that which I commented on. That while I agree that Jesus did not die for all men, bit only in the matter of justification, for as I contended, Jesus’ death also was for the whole world in a different sense.

Tong
R2045

Yes you do, since u believe Christ died for all without exception

 

[brightfame52]

Then, chances are, he didn't die for you.

Post 456, did u want to discuss it , the points made ?

 

[Renniks]

Sometimes the Bible gives us a window into reality from God's perspective as the transcendent creator. Remember, God doesn't cause things to happen the way we cause things to happen, because with respect to God and his creation, he is like the author of a novel. Tolkien didn't cause Frodo to leave home on a quest; he wrote Frodo leaving home. Likewise, everything that God does is an act of creation. Everything that happens within our reality, happens because God speaks it into existence. Pharaoh hardened his heart when God spoke that event into existence. The Bible is trying to tell you that behind all of reality is God speaking it into existence.

In Romans 9:19-24, Paul is giving you a picture of God in his transcendence. God is to man as a potter is to a pot. The potter is not unjust when he uses the same lump of dough to create both a toilet and a vase. The potter has every right to create one pot to be used as a toilet and the other pot to be used as a vase. Likewise, God is not unjust to create one person on which to show his wrath and another person on which to demonstrate his mercy. And since God is creating each person for a specific purpose, then "it doesn't depend on the man who wills or the man who runs."

More Calvinistic nonsense. Yes, God can further harden a hard heart (meaning strengthen its resolve) God speaks everything into existence. He never says he manipulates all events in our lives however, that's a false idea that comes from secular philosophy, Aristotle's unmoved mover, for example. When I write a book, I am playing the part of a god who looks like Aristotle's unmoved mover. I manipulate everything my characters do, down to their thoughts, if I decide to write them in.
God isn't obligated to speak all events into existence. He can foresee them without doing that, something which many Calvinists deny. They want to limit God's omniscience to his decrees. I find that shocking and frankly insulting to God. Even I can know future events that I plan to do. There's no miracle in that.
The lump of clay in Romans 9 is Israel. God is using them despite their disobedience. To make your theory make sense, he would have to cause that disobedience, but he says he did everything he did to make Israel produce good fruit. So, I'll stick with God instead of man's secular theories about him. God didn't create anyone for the specific purpose of damning that person. Not according to God himself. He desires all to be saved, but he allows the freedom to choose our own fates.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And yes, nobody is saying that being drawn equates to being dragged. That’s your straw man in the making. To be drawn in John 6:44 means to being convinced and persuaded of the truth that the Father reveals and teach to them whom He gives to the Son to raise up in the last day.

If it doesn't equate to being dragged, then we can resist. And you are focused on one or two verses while ignoring the verses that teach that we have to do something, we have to learn. We have to believe. Seems you idolize a deterministic version of God so much you can't see any other possibility.

You may think one can resist if you want, but not when it is God who works in one’s heart to a conviction and persuasion unto belief.

God does give to the Son by a drawing that is not bound to fail but by a drawing that is certain and sure. Verse 45 speaks of them as taught by the Father and learning from Him. There is nothing ignored there in the verse. The work of the Father mentioned in v.45 comes with a conclusion, that everyone who hears and learns from the Father will come to Christ. They are those who are drawn by the Father. And He fails not. He draws according to His will and not according to the will of the one He draws. For His drawing starts with Him and not with the one He draws. To think that His drawing depends on the will of one He draws is to think that God is dependent and subordinate and submits to man’s will. Not even Saul, who considers himself the chief of sinners, could muster enough of his will power to not be fully convinced and persuaded by the Lord Jesus Christ of the truth that he is brought to repentance towards faith in Him, in Him whom he does not only believe but works so hard to persecute. That is the convincing power of God and there is no man who resist the Lord too hard for Him to draw that He should fail, if God wills to draw him. And believe it or not, He does it without dragging or forcing the man.

Tong
R2047

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You refer to Isa.5 and mt.23, yet they speak not of the Israel that is of the children of promise, but of the children of Israel according to the flesh. That Israel is a picture of the heart of fallen man, stiff-necked and stubborn and a contrary people. That there is nothing, external to them, that would make of them to be a righteous and holy people. With that, the salvation of God is in order, that is, by election of grace. As it had been shown through them, despite the things God had done for them and for which they have seen and experienced all throughout their many generations, if only of themselves, if only of their own free will, they will all end up to be an unholy and wicked people, not different from the rest of the peoples of the earth, whose path is towards destruction and hell.

These were God's chosen people, yes, and they still used their freedom to rebel against him. I never said God could not and did not work out his plan through them despite that disobedience. God stated what he desired them to be, says he did everything possible, and they still didn't produce the fruit he wanted from them. That's good enough for me. I'll listen to what God said about their choices, instead of some strange man-made determanistic theory.

Yes they were chosen by God, not because of what they have done nor because of their will. God chose them to serve His purpose, in line with His promise to Abraham.

And part of accomplishing that purpose is what we can read they have done and how they responded to God. They were part of His plan, including all that we can read about them and God and what happened to them. It is not as though God worked out His plan by riding along a wave of random events. To the contrary, all that had transpired with Israel is an unfolding of God’s plan.

<<<God stated what he desired them to be, says he did everything possible, and they still didn't produce the fruit he wanted from them. >>>

Yes. And that is not to say that God failed, right? For God does not fail. Do you believe God does not fail? Listen to what Paul have to say about ethnic Israel, them who are children of Abraham according to the flesh.

Romans 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Tong
R2048

 

[justbyfaith]

No it does not say that.

John 1:12 does in fact say that we receive Christ first and then are given the right / power to become the children of God (be born of God). Read the verse again. It is right there for you to read.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I think that your preconceived bias prevents you from seeing this scripture for what it is and taking it at face value. Thus you have to eisegete the text.

Jesus said clearly, “This is the work of God”. What is the work of God could not be the work of man.

I think that you are clearly in debate mode. Otherwise you would see my point and concede that it is true that the people asked Jesus, "What must we do that we might work the works of God?" To which Jesus answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent."

When was that? Was it before you believed or after? Was it while you were yet an unbeliever or after you believed?

Tong
R2046

After I first professed becoming a Christian; but before I received the second benefit.

There are those who believe that the second benefit is first salvation; and if that be the case, then I asked God to do it before I was saved.