The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Tong. While he is claiming to not be a Calvinist, he is preaching Calvinistic philosophy.
It is his subtle way of saying that he believes that Calvinism is biblical.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Did you ever figure out why 1 John 1:8 doesn't have to be a born again Christian, just because the teacher is? Especially since Christ frees us from sin? When you figure out that verse 6 is a person without the light of God in them and not a Christian, then you will not be trapped in the tunnel vision of the word "we" like are most Calvinists who want to justify sin by believing we will always sin, so want 1 John 1:8 to be about a Christian, contradictory to 1 John 3 and the gospel Jesus taught, Matthew 8:32-36.
Last edited:
You never attempted to answer the question “what does it mean to come to Christ?”
And who do you take the “all” to be?
<<<Obviously, not all choose to learn.>>>
It seems to me that you idolize your free will so much that everything for you seems to boil down to it.
And it seems to me that with that, you believe that God could not do anything to change your mind into doing what He had chosen for a person to do for His purpose. It seems you believe that Pharaoh for example could resist the will of God when He chose him to do His purpose and have God fail. It seems you then believe that Pharaoh could resist the hardening of God of him. It seems you believe then that Israel could do anything against God’s hardening of them. Well, I don’t have such belief.
They all shall be taught by God. That is how God draws them to Christ. Them whom He gives to the Son to raise up in the last day.
Tong
R2030
I don’t deny scriptures nor the meaning of scriptures. That’s just your opinion and could very well be my opinion of you as well. But I find such opinion as useless, if not, a cheap excuse to justify your confusion which I ‘d say is on you. And such excuse does not strengthen nor support any of your contention. So I don’t on my part, express such like opinion here in this forum.
Tong
R2031
Everything? That’s really kind of weird.
The Father’s will for those whom He have given to the Son, them whom He draws to Christ by teaching all of them, that they will come to Christ and be raised up in the last day. Among them are the eleven apostles and Paul. You just have to read why they came to believe. You just have to read when they were chosen and why they believed or had come to the Son.
And yes, nobody is saying that being drawn equates to being dragged. That’s your straw man in the making. To be drawn in John 6:44 means to being convinced and persuaded of the truth that the Father reveals and teach to them whom He gives to the Son to raise up in the last day.
Tong
R2032
If you believe he is, as you have reason to believe, that’s up to you.
And please bring your issue with the calvinist, and not to me. I am no calvinist. I am a Christian. I follow no one except Christ. How about you?
Tong
R2033
1 John 1:8 does not have to be talking about only the unbeliever in order for us to be able to have victory over and freedom from sin.
The element of sin within us can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).
Thus, we do not have to commit sin as believers; though we have sin dwelling in our mortal flesh.
There was no answer to my contention that John 1:12 tells us that we receive Christ first and then are given the right / power to become the sons of God; and not the other way around.
So, if there is no logical or biblical answer to that, I think that settles the argument?
I may have made that point in a different thread, so I will repeat it here.
John 1:12 does not say that "To them who became the sons of God, them gave He the right to receive Him."
It places it in the opposite order.
So, if there is no logical or biblical answer to that, I think that settles the argument?
I may have made that point in a different thread, so I will repeat it here.
John 1:12 does not say that "To them who became the sons of God, them gave He the right to receive Him."
It places it in the opposite order.
<<<It doesn't matter how good the teacher is if the students refuse to learn.>>>
Well perhaps for you, but not for me. It makes a great lot of difference that the teacher is the Father, who is God. Not if one even dares to compare the Father with human teachers and not if one idolizes and makes human free will as the final power that prevails over him.
<<<Which Israel did repeatedly according to God.>>>
The Israel you refer there are the physical Israel, them who are known to be Israel according to the flesh, not the Israel who are the children of promise, like Isaac. The Israel, the children of promise, are different from the Israel according to the flesh. These are they who were evidently taught by God as they are them who come to Christ and will be raised up in the last day. They are the sheep given by the Father to the Son, who hears His voice and follow Him. And as they could hear and as such hear His voice, they learn from the Father and are taught. And as those who are not given to Him as His sheep, they don’t hear and so are not taught. Not because they refuse to be taught, but because they don’t hear and so have no understanding. That even while they have ears, they hear not, and while they have eyes, they see not.
You refer to Isa.5 and mt.23, yet they speak not of the Israel that is of the children of promise, but of the children of Israel according to the flesh. That Israel is a picture of the heart of fallen man, stiff-necked and stubborn and a contrary people. That there is nothing, external to them, that would make of them to be a righteous and holy people. With that, the salvation of God is in order, that is, by election of grace. As it had been shown through them, despite the things God had done for them and for which they have seen and experienced all throughout their many generations, if only of themselves, if only of their own free will, they will all end up to be an unholy and wicked people, not different from the rest of the peoples of the earth, whose path is towards destruction and hell.
Tong
R2034
I am a follower of Christ and not of anyone else. Not that I see in scriptures what you see that I become your follower, or that what other say a calvinist sees, that I am a follower of Calvin or is a calvinist.
But I understand why and when one gets into that excuse in the middle of a conversation or argument. They appeal to something from out of topic like saying I am a calvinist to divert, if not, to evade. Well, that sure is indicative of no refutation or counter argument.
Tong
R2035
That may be your view, but not in my view. For v. 13 ells us about those people mentioned in v.12 as people who WERE born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
I did not bring up Calvin nor calvinism, not here not in any one of my now 2036 post in this forum. It is you who bring them up every now and then. And I don’t know why you have to when I make no mention nor make reference to them. And that is being unfair, I have to say, for you to bring those up in our exchanges. If you think that by bringing those up helps your case, I would have to say, it does not in any way shape or form and to no avail, but to the contrary, makes your case weak and defenseless.
As though you would be asking too for a chapter and verse on the trinity.
Did Jesus, who knows who are His sheep, said He will give His life and ahed His blood for those who are not His sheep or for His sheep (John 10). Don’t you believe that everything that God does and say does has a good purpose and does not go back to Him unaccomplished, but fails and wasted? Well,...
The drawing in John 6:44 clearly indicates their coming to Christ and clearly states that those who come to Christ, He will raise up in the lat day.
Yes it is said quite differently. And it says that one cannot come to Christ unless He is drawn by the Father. Now the question is, what does “come” to Christ there means? It is not as though anyone who go to Christ is said to “come” to Christ and so will be raised up. For in that very chapter of John’s gospel writing, those who sought Him even to go at the other side of the sea, are said to have “come” to Christ but were not among those given to Christ and be raised up in the last day.
For sure it is about being drawn to Christ, but is not the same drawing as that in John 6:44. The drawing in John 12:32 has to do to signify by what death Jesus was about to die. It is referring to an innocent death and that by the most painful, embarrassing and humiliating way at that time, by crucifixion, where He will be literally lifted up on the death cross, that will draw all men to Him, not only the Jews, to be seen and looked upon, and talked about.
Tong
R2036
Now that is contradictory.
If it is the work of God, it could not be the work of man.
Tong
R2037
That is clearly a misrepresentation and a false accusation and bearing false witness.
Tong
R2038
More on Rom 5:18
Rom 5:18
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Let me explain what Paul means and what the Truth is, the One Offense of Adam, as He stood as the Covenant Head of Man, resulted in condemnation and guilt to all men that He stood for as Covenant Head; Now in like Manner, Christ one Act of Righteousness, His whole Life, both active and passive obedience, gives [ and they receive] Justification and Life to all who He stood as Covenant Head.159
Now it must be understood that the giving and receiving of results for these actions of each Head are the same.
That means the condemnation was given and received by those Adam represented, it was not offered to them as a choice, and so in like manner, the Justification of life was given and received by those Christ was Covenant Head and represented, it was not offered as a choice..
The word justification is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
abjuring to be righteous, justification
So, God, because of the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ declares all whom He represented, freed from guilt, and abjures to be righteous.
And again, this is not something God offers for their acceptance or refusal, but its His own declaration of them, because of the one act of Christ. Not because of their Faith, of their repentance, or water baptism, but solely by the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ.
And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception.
Rom 5:18
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Let me explain what Paul means and what the Truth is, the One Offense of Adam, as He stood as the Covenant Head of Man, resulted in condemnation and guilt to all men that He stood for as Covenant Head; Now in like Manner, Christ one Act of Righteousness, His whole Life, both active and passive obedience, gives [ and they receive] Justification and Life to all who He stood as Covenant Head.159
Now it must be understood that the giving and receiving of results for these actions of each Head are the same.
That means the condemnation was given and received by those Adam represented, it was not offered to them as a choice, and so in like manner, the Justification of life was given and received by those Christ was Covenant Head and represented, it was not offered as a choice..
The word justification is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
abjuring to be righteous, justification
So, God, because of the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ declares all whom He represented, freed from guilt, and abjures to be righteous.
And again, this is not something God offers for their acceptance or refusal, but its His own declaration of them, because of the one act of Christ. Not because of their Faith, of their repentance, or water baptism, but solely by the one act of righteousness by Jesus Christ.
And since we know that God has not declared all men without exception to be not guilty, free from guilt, and announced righteous, then its settled that Christ did not represent all men without exception in His Life and death of the cross. He simply did not die for all men without exception.
1 John 1 is about them apostles. Here’s what I posted about that in post #360:
“Yes, John there was declaring to those to whom he writes, what they (that is, they who are apostles of Christ, who have seen, heard, looked, touched), that is that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to them apostles. And he does so that they (them to whom he writes to) may have fellowship with them, who have true fellowship with the Father and the Son.
John in v.5-10 writes to show to them to whom he writes, how they are truly in fellowship with the Father and the Son and that the truth is in them. For it seems to be that to them to whom John writes, they still had not fellowship with them, for John said in verse 3 as is an intention for his writing, “that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ”.
Tong
R2039
I have addressed that already in one of my post. I am sure you’ll come across it.
Tong
R2040
Yes, Romans 5:18 speaks of the justification of those who are in Christ.
But there is also another truth about the the sacrificial death of Jesus, besides it as justification for them who are in Him. That is, His death was an atoning sacrifice not only for them who are in Him, bit also for the whole world. In this respect, He died for the whole world.
That is why I said in my other post that, Jesus died for the whole world as a sacrifice for atonement, and He died for His sheep, His people, His church, as a sin offering and sacrifice for the forgiveness of their sins.
Tong
R2041
Yet, in verse 12, it says that a man receives Christ first, and then is born of God; not the other way around.
Obviously Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and therefore He shed His blood for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and gave His life as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6). Therefore, if people reject what He did for them, and not all come to faith in Him and receive the effects of the blood so that they are forgiven, was not the blood that was shed for them wasted?
Yet God shed that blood.
It is another reason why rejecting the sacrifice of Jesus is such a heinous sin in God's eyes; for it is spurning the price that He paid for you so that in many cases and for many people, He suffered in vain.
To "come" to Christ means to come to Him in faith and receive His salvation, as I define it.
Why wouldn't it be?
Look at John 6:28. They asked Him, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" To which He answered, "This is the work of God, that ye believe in Him whom He sent."
Similar threads
