The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Mjh29]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 a reconciled world !

The world of 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.808

The world here cannot in any wise be all men without exception as false claimed, simply based upon what is stated of this world, that God hath not imputed to it its trespasses, which also means that this worlds sins have been remitted , and therefore all of them that comprise this world are legally Justified from all sin, or freed from sin ; of which we know is not the case with all men without exception, its not the case with those who are already condemned Jn 3:18 and those whom are under God's wrath Jn 3:36, which things can only be true whenever God is holding them accountable for their sins against His Law, but how can that be to anyone of that world of 2 Cor 5:19 ? Frankly its impossible !

World here means ALL MEN!!!!


...





That is to say, regardless of ethnicity. The point of saying things like "the whole world", "all men", etc... is because you have to understand that, at the time, Gentiles were considered a lost cause. Israel(Jews) were the people's of God, Gentiles were not. What the Scriptures are trying to impress upon us is NOT every human being every; it's saying "ANY" human being in the sense of ANY regardless of race.

"Other sheep have i that are not of this fold; them I will also bring."

THIS is what the Scriptures mean by all. Christ has elect Jews, and elect Gentiles too. No longer is his flock restricted in large to the Jewish nation.

 

[brightfame52]

mjh29

We're all goats.

Friend thats not true.

 

[brightfame52]

mjh29

World here means ALL MEN!!!!

Thats not true.

 

[quietthinker]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 a reconciled world !

The world of 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.808

The world here cannot in any wise be all men without exception as false claimed, simply based upon what is stated of this world, that God hath not imputed to it its trespasses, which also means that this worlds sins have been remitted , and therefore all of them that comprise this world are legally Justified from all sin, or freed from sin ; of which we know is not the case with all men without exception, its not the case with those who are already condemned Jn 3:18 and those whom are under God's wrath Jn 3:36, which things can only be true whenever God is holding them accountable for their sins against His Law, but how can that be to anyone of that world of 2 Cor 5:19 ? Frankly its impossible !

It is the saddest thing that those justified, those for whom God went to such extraordinary lengths should reject his free gift.
It is the saddest thing that many would misrepresent this gift as of one who is tight fisted and exclusive and creates people for the very purpose of destroying them or as some say, to torture them for eternity. No wonder Jesus warns us, 'do not be deceived'

 

[brightfame52]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 a reconciled world ! 2

Now continuing on with the truth that the world of 2 Cor 5:19 cannot be all mankind without exception, and along with the Truth of Non Imputation of sin regarding it, accompanying that is the imputation of Righteousness, and we know that by Rom 4, lets read Rom 4:6-8

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now Paul here is actually quoting from the OT, the Psalms Davids comments here Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.


2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Which only mentions the blessedness of forgiveness Vs 1 and non imputation Vs 2, which is the same blessedness of non imputation of 2 Cor 5:19, however when Paul does refer to it, he adds what is stated in Rom 4:6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Which is the imputing of Righteousness without works, which is not restricted to the works of the law, but works in general that includes works of the Law !

Then its followed by the direct quote of Ps 32:1-2, so it is the Spirit that hath joined them together, and we best take heed to Jesus words here "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."809

So then, those constituting that World of 2 Cor 5:19 are also at the same time of non imputation of their sins, recipients of an imputed Righteousness without works, which of course makes this World in view : A Righteous World, Righteous in Christ Jesus !

 

[brightfame52]

It is the saddest thing that those justified, those for whom God went to such extraordinary lengths should reject his free gift.
It is the saddest thing that many would misrepresent this gift as of one who is tight fisted and exclusive and creates people for the very purpose of destroying them or as some say, to torture them for eternity. No wonder Jesus warns us, 'do not be deceived'

I dont know what you talking about sir.

 

[quietthinker]

I dont know what you talking about sir.

All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam. All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled. This is the Good News.....hear it and stop segregating humanity.

The fact that most do not care for the reconciliation worked out for them means they have fallen for the devils deception brought about in various ways one of which is claiming that God's free gift is not for all but exclusive to those selected.

Those who dismiss the gift of life given them will not be forced to take it....they will die!.....and you Sir who claim to expound the Scriptures do not know these things???

 

[Tong2020]

All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam. All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled. This is the Good News.....hear it and stop segregating humanity.

Can you provide is the scriptures where your position and thinking there is coming from?

<<<All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam.>>>

By “All humanity”, I take it that you mean every human that have ever lived, are living, and will yet be born into being.

I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that with Jesus?

<<<All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled.>>>

Again, I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that all humanity are forgiven, justified, and reconciled, in Jesus?

<<<This is the Good News.>>>

The Good news as in the Gospel which the apostles preached?

Tong
R4243

 

[Mjh29]

mjh29



Thats not true.

.... Did you read the rest of the post? I'm assuming not.

I was being facetious.

And yes, we are all at one time or another goats. We're born in opposition to God.

All we like sheep have gone astray, turning each to his own way; and the Lord lay upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Now, this verse is either saying that the iniquity of EVERY HUMAN EVER was laid on Christ, or it is saying that the elect of God were, at one time, goats; opposed to God, utterly against him - sinners no different than anyone else.

Based on the context and Scripture interpreting itself, we know that it is not speaking of all men ever. So it must be speaking of Gods elect.

I believe in election- but I don't believe in being special. There was and is nothing in me worthy of Gods love, any more than anyone else. Election is not a grounds for claiming superiority or 'specialness'. God chose for Himself a people.

And the elect of God are not a small group; they are an innumerable multitude, many of which we may be surprised to see in the fold.

My friend, even if I disagree with someone, I still at least try and give them the common courtesy of reading their post before commenting. I was actually speaking AGAINST Christ dying for every human ever. Had you read my post you may have seen that.

 

[quietthinker]

Can you provide is the scriptures where your position and thinking there is coming from?

<<<All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam.>>>

By “All humanity”, I take it that you mean every human that have ever lived, are living, and will yet be born into being.

I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that with Jesus?

<<<All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled.>>>

Again, I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that all humanity are forgiven, justified, and reconciled, in Jesus?

<<<This is the Good News.>>>

The Good news as in the Gospel which the apostles preached?

Tong
R4243

Romans 5:12-21

 

[Tong2020]

Romans 5:12-21

Thank you for the reference scriptures. Now, please kindly answer my questions.

<<<All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam.>>>

By “All humanity”, I take it that you mean every human that have ever lived, are living, and will yet be born into being.

I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that with Jesus?

<<<All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled.>>>

Again, I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that all humanity are forgiven, justified, and reconciled, in Jesus?

<<<This is the Good News.>>>

The Good news as in the Gospel which the apostles preached?

Tong
R4244

 

[quietthinker]

Thank you for the reference scriptures. Now, please kindly answer my questions.

<<<All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam.>>>

By “All humanity”, I take it that you mean every human that have ever lived, are living, and will yet be born into being.

I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that with Jesus?

<<<All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled.>>>

Again, I could understand how that is with Adam. But how is that all humanity are forgiven, justified, and reconciled, in Jesus?

<<<This is the Good News.>>>

The Good news as in the Gospel which the apostles preached?

Tong
R4244

Jesus is the new representative of the Human race. Where Adam failed, Jesus gains the victory.
We die because of no fault of our own. Our death is the result of Adams sin....mortality is inherited from Adam.

Mortality was overcome by Jesus on behalf of all people.

2 Timothy 1:10 'But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel'

Eternal life is gifted to all yet many will refuse it.....they will not believe God is that Gracious.....they insist on making God in their image and in so doing refuse the gift.

 

[Tong2020]

Jesus is the new representative of the Human race. Where Adam failed, Jesus gains the victory.
We die because of no fault of our own. Our death is the result of Adams sin....mortality is inherited from Adam.

Mortality was overcome by Jesus on behalf of all people.

2 Timothy 1:10 'But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel'

Eternal life is gifted to all yet many will refuse it.....they will not believe God is that Gracious.....they insist on making God in their image and in so doing refuse the gift.

<<<Mortality was overcome by Jesus on behalf of all people.>>>

In all of what you say there, does that include dead people from Adam to the time of Christ, as pertains to your statement there? Can you enlighten us on that?

And what are your answers to my other two questions?

But how is that all humanity are forgiven, justified, and reconciled, in Jesus?

<<<This is the Good News.>>>

The Good news as in the Gospel which the apostles preached?

Tong
R4245

 

[quietthinker]

<<<Mortality was overcome by Jesus on behalf of all people.>>>

In all of what you say there, does that include dead people from Adam to the time of Christ, as pertains to your statement there? Can you enlighten us on that?

And what are your answers to my other two questions?

But how is that all humanity are forgiven, justified, and reconciled, in Jesus?

<<<This is the Good News.>>>

The Good news as in the Gospel which the apostles preached?

Tong
R4245

All means all....every single person who has ever existed.
As to your other questions, you need to get familiar with Paul epistles.....he outlines the Good News clearly.

You could also watch and or listen to the video presentations and or podcasts listed in my signature below.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All humanity is in Jesus just as they are in Adam. All humanity in Adam are subject to death, so all humanity in Jesus are forgiven, justified and reconciled. This is the Good News.....hear it and stop segregating humanity.

The fact that most do not care for the reconciliation worked out for them means they have fallen for the devils deception brought about in various ways one of which is claiming that God's free gift is not for all but exclusive to those selected.

Those who dismiss the gift of life given them will not be forced to take it....they will die!.....and you Sir who claim to expound the Scriptures do not know these things???

But it IS exclusive to those who care about the reconciliation, Yes? Even in your own view, Christ's atonement doesn't apply to everyone. What am I missing?

 

[Tong2020]

All means all....every single person who has ever existed.
As to your other questions, you need to get familiar with Paul epistles.....he outlines the Good News clearly.

You could also watch and or listen to the video presentations and or podcasts listed in my signature below.

<<<All means all....every single person who has ever existed.>>>

That would make you saying in effect that even all the dead people before Christ (according to what you say there) replaced Adam and had become the new representative of the human race, were forgiven of all their sins, were all justified, and were all reconciled to God. That is what you are in effect teaching.

And as pertains the Gospel that Paul preached, that is not the gospel that he preached.

Tong
R4246

 

[CadyandZoe]

The world of 2 Cor 5:19 a reconciled world !

The world of 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.808

The world here cannot in any wise be all men without exception as false claimed, simply based upon what is stated of this world, that God hath not imputed to it its trespasses, which also means that this worlds sins have been remitted , and therefore all of them that comprise this world are legally Justified from all sin, or freed from sin ; of which we know is not the case with all men without exception, its not the case with those who are already condemned Jn 3:18 and those whom are under God's wrath Jn 3:36, which things can only be true whenever God is holding them accountable for their sins against His Law, but how can that be to anyone of that world of 2 Cor 5:19 ? Frankly its impossible !

You seem to be confusing justification with reconciliation. These are two different things.

The debate here, in this thread, seems to make a faulty assumption on which both agree but both sides are incorrect. It assumes that atonement is synonymous with justification, which is incorrect. Calvinists, for instance, argue that the atonement is limited to the elect only, otherwise the entire world would be forgiven, justified, and saved. This is obviously not true.

Those who argue against this opinion, either agree that all men are saved, or they argue that "the world" should be qualified and not understood as each and every man, woman, and child everywhere and for all time. God was not reconciling the entire world to himself was he? Indeed he was. But he was NOT justifying them.

To understand this we should remember that in order for a realized reconciliation to take place, both parties must agree to reconcile. God himself has offered the world the means by which they might be reconciled to God, i.e. the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, but each individual person must turn to God, seeking reconciliation. I picture two people standing back-to-back. One person may turn around to face the other, offering reconciliation, but the effort will remain fruitless unless the other person also turns around. In other words, God has reconciled himself to all human kind, but not all will reconcile to him.

This picture of reconciliation is found in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
New American Standard Bible 1995

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Notice that although God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, Christ must continually send out ambassadors to exhort each person individually to "be reconciled to God." Both offended parties must turn toward each other. If a person refuses to turn to God, he will not find reconciliation with God.

But Paul says, in the fourth chapter of Romans, that Jesus was "delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." And also, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ . . ." We have reconciliation through our Lord Jesus Christ, but we are justified in view of our faith. God is granting a universal offer of reconciliation, but he has not granted a universal justification, which can only come to those who believe and call upon his name.

 

[Tong2020]

You seem to be confusing justification with reconciliation. These are two different things.

The debate here, in this thread, seems to make a faulty assumption on which both agree but both sides are incorrect. It assumes that atonement is synonymous with justification, which is incorrect. Calvinists, for instance, argue that the atonement is limited to the elect only, otherwise the entire world would be forgiven, justified, and saved. This is obviously not true.

Those who argue against this opinion, either agree that all men are saved, or they argue that "the world" should be qualified and not understood as each and every man, woman, and child everywhere and for all time. God was not reconciling the entire world to himself was he? Indeed he was. But he was NOT justifying them.

To understand this we should remember that in order for a realized reconciliation to take place, both parties must agree to reconcile. God himself has offered the world the means by which they might be reconciled to God, i.e. the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, but each individual person must turn to God, seeking reconciliation. I picture two people standing back-to-back. One person may turn around to face the other, offering reconciliation, but the effort will remain fruitless unless the other person also turns around. In other words, God has reconciled himself to all human kind, but not all will reconcile to him.

This picture of reconciliation is found in Paul's letter to the Corinthians.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
New American Standard Bible 1995

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Notice that although God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, Christ must continually send out ambassadors to exhort each person individually to "be reconciled to God." Both offended parties must turn toward each other. If a person refuses to turn to God, he will not find reconciliation with God.

But Paul says, in the fourth chapter of Romans, that Jesus was "delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification." And also, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ . . ." We have reconciliation through our Lord Jesus Christ, but we are justified in view of our faith. God is granting a universal offer of reconciliation, but he has not granted a universal justification, which can only come to those who believe and call upon his name.

But consider, regarding salvation unto eternal life, what we read in scriptures.

Jesus said “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. ”

Jesus said “He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”

Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. ”

Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. ”

What can you say about that?

Tong
R4247

 

[CadyandZoe]

But consider, regarding salvation unto eternal life, what we read in scriptures.

Jesus said “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. ”

Jesus said “He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.”

Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. ”

Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. ”

What can you say about that?

Tong
R4247

I think it says it all. (Well, maybe not ALL. :) )

I like your posts Tong. Keep up the good work. With regard to the topic of reconciliation vs. justification, I am first drawn to Romans 3:21-26 where Paul summarizes the distinction between reconciliation and justification quite well. It was here that I first discovered the actual reason for the cross. That is, the cross brought about our reconciliation, not our justification or even our salvation. Propitiation is applied "through" faith (though I think "dia" should be translated "in view of") Faith, as James and Paul both say, is an indication of justification.

 

[Tong2020]

I think it says it all. (Well, maybe not ALL. :) )

I like your posts Tong. Keep up the good work. With regard to the topic of reconciliation vs. justification, I am first drawn to Romans 3:21-26 where Paul summarizes the distinction between reconciliation and justification quite well. It was here that I first discovered the actual reason for the cross. That is, the cross brought about our reconciliation, not our justification or even our salvation. Propitiation is applied "through" faith (though I think "dia" should be translated "in view of") Faith, as James and Paul both say, is an indication of justification.

<<<With regard to the topic of reconciliation vs. justification, I am first drawn to Romans 3:21-26 where Paul summarizes the distinction between reconciliation and justification quite well. >>>

Kindly tell, what is reconciliation and what is justification, as per your reading of the scriptures?

Tong
R4248