The Immaculate Conception Error!

[brakelite]

When we are born into this world we are born with the propensity to sin, it is an inborn natural tendency to selfishness. We do not have to sin in order to express that propensity, babies express that selfishness from the moment they open their mouths. Are they condemned because of this? A part of me (this is just an opinion) believes their destiny rests upon the faith of their parents.
As far as who, or what, is the source of salvation, I think it is both the gospel and Yeshua. Yeshua is the good news. Has been from the foundation of the world...from the very first promise of an answer to the sin problem in Genesis 3:15. Thus began the gospel...a promise of a Savior...accepting and believing in that promise was salvation for OT Jewry...accepting and believing in the culmination of that promise is salvation for NT Israelites.

To the discussion on the existence of sin prior to the law ....when the written law was given at Sinai it was necessary to educate a people regarding the character of God. They, for 400 years, had been inculcated into paganism...any truth or reality re the nature of God had long been forgotten. So God revealed Himself to Israel. His law was a written transcript of His character. It was His character that had been in question since the fall. Satan had suggested He was holding something back from Eve...that He was a liar.... And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods,....as if God was being selfish and wanting to be the only god in town. Since then, man has been reinventing God, and when he does so he ignores His law. Today, people like Oprah Winfrey are promoting their own self made religion where man himself becomes his own god. "I am what I am", being a common mantra. But I digress. Sin is transgression against the law, yes, but it is also transgression against the character of God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". So yes, sin existed before Sinai...Joseph himself recognizing this ...Ge 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
Joseph did not need a written law to recognize sin...what he had was a correct perspective on the character of God...something Eve hadn't learned as yet, and which Israel had lost during their tenure in Egypt....oh, and which was exemplified and reinforced by the life of Christ.
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable

 

[StanJ]

Oh Stan you do get so angry.;

Would you like to go back to Saul, you know the one whom you said,"look at Him he was a pharisee" and should I remind you what he thought about it all,

Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Him = Jesus, I thought a man with all your comprehension would have figured that out.

Have you ever ascked Jesus a question, would you like to know how He works,

ask Him to show you love, than one day when you are in a shopping center with your trolley full and you see some women with no money to pay for hers, so you do, and so you do without, you just learned love,

Than you have someone who has hrut you really bad, someone really close, whom you could throttle, but Christ than gives you the chance to forgive them, so you do, now you have learned forgivenss and grace,

Than you ask a question on a particular topic, and ten years later you get an answer, why, because He migh need you learn and understand a whole bunch of other things before He can give you that answer,
You desire to get wisdom, that will take time, everything He does is through experience as it i teh only way he can teach us anything,

but if you sit and learn as so many do, filling your hed with what you think is the truth, drawing your own conclusions, than you will become just liek Saul, running around Kliling Christians, you know this bit,

Act_9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

See Christ cant teach anyman who has already filled Himself,

Should I repeat myself, you know those marshall art movies where the student sits with teh master, and teh master tells him to hold up the glass and he than proceeds to fill it till it overflows, and teh student cant understand, and so teh master says, " that is you, so filled with yourself, than he empties the glass and says, when you become like this, than come to me and I can teach you.

Now look up that word study, I am sure you already have, and ask Jesus what it really means.

God aproves of men because of what Christ did, not because of what we do, everything else is self righteousness. "look at me God, look what I did",

when you come to that place where you realise that evrything you know is wrong and that only he is right, than you are at a place where He can teach you.

Be carefull that you dont become like them, condeming those who dont know fancy words, or have english grammer problems, becuase it Jesus said, that you do to the least of these you do to me. Far better to be like Paul than what he was when he was Saul.;

In all His Love

I can't be bothered to read this onerous posts when it does NOT answer my very direct and succinct questions. Verboseness does NOT equate to truth. Notice how short Jesus' answers were?

 

[mjrhealth]

Between you and Him, hope you know Him when you see Him.

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

 

[StanJ]

Between you and Him, hope you know Him when you see Him.

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Yes, and Paul HAD the education and learning to know what was true FROM the OT scriptures and a personal experience with Jesus.
You seem to use scripture ONLY when it suits you but not when it doesn't. Unless you have the Holy Spirit and defer to Him about the Word of God, you will NEVER know.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, and Paul HAD the education and learning to know what was true FROM the OT scriptures and a personal experience with Jesus.
You seem to use scripture ONLY when it suits you but not when it doesn't. Unless you have the Holy Spirit and defer to Him about the Word of God, you will NEVER know.

Yes and Paul was the one who didnt know Jesus, teh 12 disciples where " unlearned " men. fisher man etc, why did Jesus choose them??

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

If you had teh Holy Spirit as you say, you would never have said,

All my knowledge is mostly self taught. I took a few Bible college course

Because everything you learned would of come from Him, never being able to boast of "self" for

Gal_6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Everything that is good comes from Him and we can never boast, " I did it"

Dan_5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

Have you ever watched snippets of the bible series, the new one, when Saul is on the road to Damascus, and He is sitting with His men, and one asks him why he is persuing them, and Saul responds,

i cant understand why God would use one like him, a fisherman, when.. and he cuts himself off, see he was full of pride, but Jesus had to take Him down a couple of notches untill He understood, than he counted all his learning as worthless, that he would rather know Jesus.

1Co_8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

In all His Love

 

[mjrhealth]

You seem to use scripture ONLY when it suits you but not when it doesn'

It never suits me, but christians dont believe God, dont believe Jesus, and dont believe the Holy Spirirt, so whats left.

 

[tom55]

tom55, on 28 Dec 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

So when and how does sin (or the desire to sin) enter into us? Since we all eventually sin.
Also this statement by you (Then again, maybe not.) sounds condescending. Was that your intent? (just curious, ain't mad at ya', just trying to figure out how you write your thoughts)

StanJ Quote: The moment we KNOWINGLY disobey God.

That's a good point. So now I wonder if a person does not knowingly disobey God until they are 10 years old are they like an angel until that first sin? (does that question make sense?)
Or, what do you think that person would be until they commit that first sin? Wouldn't they be like Jesus or an angel?

No, just a statement of observation based on your responses so far. It may come across as such but I didn't intend to BE condescending. Thank You!

 

[StanJ]

It never suits me, but christians dont believe God, dont believe Jesus, and dont believe the Holy Spirirt, so whats left.

Well telling 4 lies like you have here doesn't help at all.

 

[StanJ]

That's a good point. So now I wonder if a person does not knowingly disobey God until they are 10 years old are they like an angel until that first sin? (does that question make sense?)
Or, what do you think that person would be until they commit that first sin? Wouldn't they be like Jesus or an angel?

Nothing like an angel, Heb 2:7 tells us we are a little lower than the angels.

 

[mjrhealth]

Well telling 4 lies like you have here doesn't help at all.

4 hmm tell me where...

You really should look at what Saul as a pharisse was and did, and as Paul what he became. What did he say, a Pharisee of Pharisees, a very learned man, qualified by men yet not qualified by Christ, than he met Jesus, all of a sudden He discovered all his learning accounted for nothing, for he who was approved of man didnt know Jesus of whom teh scriptures spoke just like all teh pharisees who condemned Him but knew teh gospel, even the discioles who spent so much time with Him didnt understand, constanly being rebuked and corrected. It was not till Pentecost when teh Holy Spirit fell upon them did they begin to understand than it was by the Spirit they where taught not by any mens doctrines or books they where qualified by Jesus, it was Him who gave them wisdom and understanding something no reading of books can do.And yet even after that they argued, Paul was teh most qualified because He was humbled, going from being Loved by men to being despised and hated by the same, giving up all so He could "know" Christ, not about Him,

Even today christians will deny God to His face when he shows them something they do not understand or doesnt line up with their understanding from reading the bible, and that is the greates slap inj the face God gets, having a book raised in a position higher than him.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

[StanJ]

4 hmm tell me where...

You really should look at what Saul as a pharisse was and did, and as Paul what he became. What did he say, a Pharisee of Pharisees, a very learned man, qualified by men yet not qualified by Christ, than he met Jesus, all of a sudden He discovered all his learning accounted for nothing, for he who was approved of man didnt know Jesus of whom teh scriptures spoke just like all teh pharisees who condemned Him but knew teh gospel, even the discioles who spent so much time with Him didnt understand, constanly being rebuked and corrected. It was not till Pentecost when teh Holy Spirit fell upon them did they begin to understand than it was by the Spirit they where taught not by any mens doctrines or books they where qualified by Jesus, it was Him who gave them wisdom and understanding something no reading of books can do.And yet even after that they argued, Paul was teh most qualified because He was humbled, going from being Loved by men to being despised and hated by the same, giving up all so He could "know" Christ, not about Him,

Even today christians will deny God to His face when he shows them something they do not understand or doesnt line up with their understanding from reading the bible, and that is the greates slap inj the face God gets, having a book raised in a position higher than him.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

The whole post, but instead of addressing my response you deflect to something else. I though I was bad with my AADD.

 

[mjrhealth]

The whole post, but instead of addressing my response you deflect to something else. I though I was bad with my AADD.

Which post and explain how?? i am sure the world would like to know.

 

[StanJ]

Which post and explain how?? i am sure the world would like to know.

No I'm pretty sure all those who are following this thread already know. Not surprising you can't follow you own posts from one to the next, given how you often reply. You're just making my point for me.

 

[mjrhealth]

No I'm pretty sure all those who are following this thread already know. Not surprising you can't follow you own posts from one to the next, given how you often reply. You're just making my point for me

Than I am sure one of them wil point out my error.

 

[StanJ]

Than I am sure one of them wil point out my error.

Most people here do NOT gang up on others here. It is sufficient that you are told once, but I don't lead the mob, as you tend to believe.

 

[mjrhealth]

Most people here do NOT gang up on others here. It is sufficient that you are told once, but I don't lead the mob, as you tend to believe.

I am sure if I am to be corrected there is someone here who can, that is not ganging up.

So what have you learned from teh Holy Spirit our teacher sent by Christ??

 

[tom55]

StanJ,

I like your responses because they are short and to the point. My question here is not directed at you alone. I am just using your short and to the point responses to ask anyone on this thread some questions so I can better understand how it is impossible that Mary was/is Immaculate.

You, StanJ said: As Jesus taught more than once, that no man(or woman) is good, we know Mary was not immaculate. In terms of original sin, that was Eve's alone. We as humans are born with a carnal nature that WILL eventually sin. We are not born WITH sin, but INTO a sinful world.THAT is what scripture teaches...no more...no less.

And in response to my question when does sin enter the body?: The moment we KNOWINGLY disobey God.

I agree with you that scripture says no man is good. That makes me wonder if that means Jesus also? Was he not a man?

IF sin does not enter man until he knowingly disobeys Him then is it possible that Mary never knowingly disobeyed Him?

If it is possible for man to be sinless until...lets say...the age of 10, before they knowingly commit their first sin, then is it possible to be sinless until the age of 15? If 15 why not 20 or 30....? Are all things not possible with God especially when it comes to the woman who bore his child?

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain. According to you and others on this thread we don't have sin in our body until we knowingly disobey God. Is it possible Mary never knowingly disobeyed Him?

I personally find it hard to believe that Jesus entered this world via a human body that was sinful. I believe it is possible that God made an exception for Mary, the mother of God. For all things are possible with God.

 

[justaname]

The thrust of the argument for Mary's sinless perfection rests on this statement...From Luke 1.

KJV
Hail , thou that art highly favoured ,
Χαῖρε • • • κεχαριτωμένη






NASB
Greetings , favored one !
χαίρω χαριτόω


NRSV Catholic Edition
Greetings , favored one!
Χαῖρε κεχαριτωμένη





Douay-Rhemis
Hail, full of grace,


88.66 χαριτόω; χάριςa, ιτος f: to show kindness to someone, with the implication of graciousness on the part of the one showing such kindness—‘to show kindness, to manifest graciousness toward, kindness, graciousness, grace.’
χαριτόω: κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ ‘the Lord is with you, you to whom (the Lord) has shown kindness’ Lk 1:28; ἧς ἐχαρίτωσεν ἡμᾶς ἐν τῷ ἠγαπημένῳ ‘which he has graciously shown us in the one he loves’ Eph 1:6.χάριςa: ἐξῆλθεν παραδοθεὶς τῇ χάριτι τοῦ κυρίου ὑπὸ τῶν ἀδελφῶν ‘he left, being commended by the brothers to the kindness of the Lord’ Ac 15:40.
It is important to note that kindness in English indicates an activity in which an individual is kind to someone; it is essentially an event involving a particular quality. The same is true of χάρις in Ac 15:40, for this is not a mere gracious disposition, but an expectation of the Lord’s showing kindness.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, pp. 748–749). New York: United Bible Societies.

This can also be translated greetings woman richly blessed or much graced. The argument starts from a philosophical premise behind the fullness of grace within the person of Mary.


Can God keep Mary to be without sin? I answer yes.

Yet the proper question rather is did God keep Mary to be without sin? I dunno, but the majority of Scripture seems plain that there is only One who was without sin. Jesus the Christ always did what was pleasing to the Father.

This is interesting though as the word is used here also...
Ephesians 1:6
to the praise of the glory of His grace , which He freely bestowed on us in
εἰς ἔπαινος δόξα αὐτός ὁ χάρις ὅς χαριτόω ἐγώ ἐν

the Beloved .
ὁ ἀγαπάω

 

[StanJ]

I am sure if I am to be corrected there is someone here who can, that is not ganging up.

So what have you learned from teh Holy Spirit our teacher sent by Christ??

More than I can remember, or note here, after 45 years of being saved.

 

[StanJ]

That makes me wonder if that means Jesus also? Was he not a man?

IF sin does not enter man until he knowingly disobeys Him then is it possible that Mary never knowingly disobeyed Him?

If it is possible for man to be sinless until...lets say...the age of 10, before they knowingly commit their first sin, then is it possible to be sinless until the age of 15? If 15 why not 20 or 30....? Are all things not possible with God especially when it comes to the woman who bore his child?

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain. According to you and others on this thread we don't have sin in our body until we knowingly disobey God. Is it possible Mary never knowingly disobeyed Him?

I personally find it hard to believe that Jesus entered this world via a human body that was sinful. I believe it is possible that God made an exception for Mary, the mother of God. For all things are possible with God.

He was much more than a man, which is why He said what he said. He was showing that He was more than what the man in Luke 18:18 asked him. He was not JUST a good teacher, and in fact he was sinless. Heb 4:15, 1 Peter 2:22

Mary was a normal women who found favour, UNWARRANTED favour.

There really cannot be any set age, although some have tried to make the age of accountability around 7 or 8. Only God knows for sure.

The Immaculate Conception means Mary was a virgin when she conceived. Simple and nothing more. Sadly the RCC has tried to attach much more to it, including her sinless nature and her perpetual virginity. None of which are sustained in scripture.

The human egg that was fertilized by the Holy Spirit, was NOT sinful. That is the beauty of the hypostatic nature of Jesus.
Jesus did not lie when He said not man was good or sinless, so obviously Mary was NOT without sin.
Every human being that God has EVER used, has sinned at one time or another.