The Immaculate Conception Error!

[tom55]

Mary was a normal women who found favour, UNWARRANTED favour.

So God looked upon the earth 2000 years ago and said "You, Mary, a normal woman, I want you to give birth to my son. And after you do that, go and live a normal woman's life and die like a normal woman. And when you get into heaven (that is IF you get into heaven) you will be a normal soul." Or does scripture reveal to us what she truly is: Blessed among women and Blessed is the fruit of her womb (equating Mary to Jesus as both being blessed?) Full of Grace!! Mother of God! The same Mary who told Jesus it was time to reveal himself when He didn't seem to know it was time? (John 2:1-11) Are we talking about the same Mary? She was important to God. She was important to Jesus. Wouldn't you agree she was probably a little bit more than a "normal woman"?

There really cannot be any set age, although some have tried to make the age of accountability around 7 or 8. Only God knows for sure.

So if a person is born without sin and doesn't have sin in them until they commit a sin (around the age of 7 or 8) then is it not possible that Mary was sinless from birth until death? If God can create the universe, create life, control the weather and bring people back from the dead can he not make a persons soul sinless for eternity instead of the age of 7 or 8?

What about a person born with a mental disability who can not be accountable for what they do and they live until the age of 85? Are they sinless until the day they die? And if they are sinless until the day they die where they like an angel living here on earth? Were they not "like Jesus" while on earth: sinless?

The Immaculate Conception means Mary was a virgin when she conceived. Simple and nothing more. Sadly the RCC has tried to attach much more to it, including her sinless nature and her perpetual virginity. None of which are sustained in scripture.

What I wrote is a quote from the catholic.com: The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain. This is based on Ineffabilis Deus which was the Apostolic Constitution issued by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1854. Therefor your "Simple and nothing more" comment is inaccurate. I quoted the source of the Immaculate Conception doctrine. It appears you gave your opinion or are reading someone else's opinion. I am not defending the doctrine. I am just reporting the facts.

The human egg that was fertilized by the Holy Spirit, was NOT sinful. That is the beauty of the hypostatic nature of Jesus.
Jesus did not lie when He said not man was good or sinless, so obviously Mary was NOT without sin.

But Mary was without sin, until she committed her first sin at the age of reasoning. Or did God perform a miracle on her and make her sinless?

 

[Barrd]

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain. According to you and others on this thread we don't have sin in our body until we knowingly disobey God. Is it possible Mary never knowingly disobeyed Him?


I personally find it hard to believe that Jesus entered this world via a human body that was sinful. I believe it is possible that God made an exception for Mary, the mother of God. For all things are possible with God.

The Bible does not say that Mary was either a perpetual virgin, or that she was without sin or its stain. Mary needed a Savior, just as we all do.

Mary's Song of Praise: The Magnificat

Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

I have no doubt that Mary was the noblest of women...that she was good, and pure, and humble...but only Jesus Himself was without sin. If Mary had been without sin, there would be no need for Jesus.

 

[tom55]

The Bible does not say that Mary was either a perpetual virgin, or that she was without sin or its stain. Mary needed a Savior, just as we all do.

I, Tom55, didn't say that. I simply quoted (cut and pasted) what the Catholic Church teaches.

I have no doubt that Mary was the noblest of women...that she was good, and pure, and humble...but only Jesus Himself was without sin. If Mary had been without sin, there would be no need for Jesus.

Just because the bible doesn't come right out and say, "Mary, the mother of Jesus, never sinned", doesn't mean she wasn't without sin. I see nothing in the bible that says "When baptizing they will be submerged in water", however some Churches teach if you weren't baptized by submersion then it wasn't done according to scripture. Some churches use grape juice instead of wine. The bible clearly says wine. Does that mean that the churches that use grape juice are wrong? There are dozens of other examples I could give of what Christians practice, preach and teach that they say is in scripture but it really isn't. And whose authority proves them wrong?

 

[StanJ]

So God looked upon the earth 2000 years ago and said "You, Mary, a normal woman, I want you to give birth to my son. And after you do that, go and live a normal woman's life and die like a normal woman. And when you get into heaven (that is IF you get into heaven) you will be a normal soul." Or does scripture reveal to us what she truly is: Blessed among women and Blessed is the fruit of her womb (equating Mary to Jesus as both being blessed?) Full of Grace!! Mother of God! The same Mary who told Jesus it was time to reveal himself when He didn't seem to know it was time? (John 2:1-11) Are we talking about the same Mary? She was important to God. She was important to Jesus. Wouldn't you agree she was probably a little bit more than a "normal woman"?

I don't create strawman scenarios tom. The Bible says what it says and the ONLY person it says NEVER sinned was Jesus. In fact, the angel said BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN. That does NOT connote being perfect.
Using human rational to get around the lack of evidence for your POV, is not acceptable as far as hermeneutics is concerned. If you can't show it from scripture, don't invent it.

 

[Barrd]

The Bible does not say that Mary was either a perpetual virgin, or that she was without sin or its stain. Mary needed a Savior, just as we all do.

I, Tom55, didn't say that. I simply quoted (cut and pasted) what the Catholic Church teaches.

I have no doubt that Mary was the noblest of women...that she was good, and pure, and humble...but only Jesus Himself was without sin. If Mary had been without sin, there would be no need for Jesus.

Just because the bible doesn't come right out and say, "Mary, the mother of Jesus, never sinned", doesn't mean she wasn't without sin. I see nothing in the bible that says "When baptizing they will be submerged in water", however some Churches teach if you weren't baptized by submersion then it wasn't done according to scripture. Some churches use grape juice instead of wine. The bible clearly says wine. Does that mean that the churches that use grape juice are wrong? There are dozens of other examples I could give of what Christians practice, preach and teach that they say is in scripture but it really isn't. And whose authority proves them wrong?

What in the world do these things have to do with the subject of this thread? Baptism? Grape juice? :unsure:

The fact is that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, nor was she without sin.
She and Joseph went on to enjoy a perfectly normal married life after Jesus was born, and had other children together.
Yes, Mary was blessed among women. She was chosen to bear the Son of God. I'm sure she was a great lady, a perfect example of the Virtuous Woman as described in Proverbs...a wonderful wife and mother, and a good friend.
But not without sin. If even one woman could be without sin, there would be no need for Jesus.

 

[tom55]

What in the world do these things have to do with the subject of this thread? Baptism? Grape juice? :unsure:
My point is as Christians we practice and believe things that are NOT specifically spelled out in the bible....submersion baptism...grape juice instead of wine. So why can't a Christian believe/teach the Immaculate Conception?

The fact is that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, nor was she without sin.
Where in the bible does it say she was or was NOT a perpetual virgin or without sin? If we are without sin until the point we commit our first sin (age 7-10) then why is it not possible that Mary, by the grace of God, never committed a sin?

She and Joseph went on to enjoy a perfectly normal married life after Jesus was born, and had other children together.
Where does it say that in the bible?

 

[tom55]

I don't create strawman scenarios tom. The Bible says what it says and the ONLY person it says NEVER sinned was Jesus. In fact, the angel said BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN. That does NOT connote being perfect.
Using human rational to get around the lack of evidence for your POV, is not acceptable as far as hermeneutics is concerned. If you can't show it from scripture, don't invent it.

You, StanJ, invented this statement: The Immaculate Conception means Mary was a virgin when she conceived. Simple and nothing more. Sadly the RCC has tried to attach much more to it, including her sinless nature and her perpetual virginity. I, Tom55, did not invent the Immaculate Conception Doctrine; I only quoted it!

Can you show me where it says in scripture that a person is sinless until the age of reasoning? (which it seems you have placed around the age of 7-10)

Can you show me in scripture the answer to this question that I asked you: What about a person born with a mental disability who can not be accountable for what they do and they live until the age of 85? Are they sinless until the day they die?

According to you a person remains sinless until they commit their first sin at the age of reasoning (age 7-10). Show me in scripture where Mary committed a sin? She was sinless at least until the age of 7-10 so show me a scripture passage saying she sinned after that.

My intent is not to be confrontational but only better understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Barrd]

What in the world do these things have to do with the subject of this thread? Baptism? Grape juice? :unsure:
My point is as Christians we practice and believe things that are NOT specifically spelled out in the bible....submersion baptism...grape juice instead of wine. So why can't a Christian believe/teach the Immaculate Conception?

The fact is that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, nor was she without sin.
Where in the bible does it say she was or was NOT a perpetual virgin or without sin? If we are without sin until the point we commit our first sin (age 7-10) then why is it not possible that Mary, by the grace of God, never committed a sin?

She and Joseph went on to enjoy a perfectly normal married life after Jesus was born, and had other children together.
Where does it say that in the bible?

Strictly speaking, grape juice is wine...it just hasn't fermented yet. Put it in a bottle made of animal skin and store it at desert temperatures for a bit, and you'll have wine. It won't taste too good, I'm afraid...but it'll be wine, for all that.
Baptism-all I know is that the person being baptized is supposed to be thoroughly wet.

G907 (Strong)

βαπτίζω

baptizō

bap-tid'-zo

From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.

Total KJV occurrences: 80

The Immaculate Conception teaching puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. There can be only one Jesus.

Who says we don't commit sin until we are seven? We sin from the cradle. We are not held accountable for our sins until we are able to tell the difference between right and wrong. For some, that might be seven years old, I suppose...but it is different for each person. The point, of course, is that we all sin. Including Mary.

The Bible clearly tells us that Joseph did not touch his wife until after she had given birth to Jesus. What it carefully does not say is that he never touched her at all.

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mary and Joseph had other children.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Obviously, Mary was not a perpetual virgin according to the Bible. She was a wife and a mother.
And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[tom55]

Strictly speaking, grape juice is wine...it just hasn't fermented yet. Put it in a bottle made of animal skin and store it at desert temperatures for a bit, and you'll have wine. It won't taste too good, I'm afraid...but it'll be wine, for all that.

Wine: an alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice
Grape Juice: the usually sterilized and often diluted juice of grapes used as a beverage

Strictly speaking, grape juice is NOT wine since wine but it can become wine after it has fermented. One can get you drunk; the other can't...not the same!!
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/11/welchs-grape-juice-started-sacramental-wine/

Baptism-all I know is that the person being baptized is supposed to be thoroughly wet.
G907 (Strong)
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
Total KJV occurrences: 80

I clearly referred to "submersion" baptism as being believed by some denominations. So one can not become "fully or thoroughly wet" unless they are submerged? How about if I throw 50 glasses of water on you; would that make you fully wet? Or stand out in the rain for 20 minutes; would that make you "fully wet"? My point is it doesn't have to be submersion for it to be valid.

What does a person do that wants to be baptized that is physically unable (medical condition) to be submerged? Can they NOT be baptized?

My point is scripture does not say you have to be submerged to be baptized even though it is the preferable method. Archeologist have discovered 2nd century churches that had baptismal fonts that were not big enough for submersion and art work that depicts baptism with a sea shell which is why in Christianity the sea shell has become the symbol for baptism. Furthermore if you read early Christian writings (such as the Didache) they clearly refer to alternative choices to submersion. Therefor the practice of submersion baptism is not based on the complete definition of baptizo, it is not biblical, it is not historical and submersion is not required to be saved as some churches teach which supports my statement that some churches believe things that are not in scripture. The Immaculate Conception is not in scripture but it is believed by some denominations. Who are you or I to tell them they are wrong?


The Immaculate Conception teaching puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. There can be only one Jesus.

Scripture puts Mary on the same level as Jesus: "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb". (Mary called blessed AND the fruit of her womb, Jesus, called blessed). I am not saying she is a Goddess just saying she is, according to scripture, much more than your average woman.

Who says we don't commit sin until we are seven? We sin from the cradle. We are not held accountable for our sins until we are able to tell the difference between right and wrong. For some, that might be seven years old, I suppose...but it is different for each person. The point, of course, is that we all sin. Including Mary.

So you believe in original sin? That we are born with sin? Some on this thread have said we are not born with sin. I thought you were one of them?

The Bible clearly tells us that Joseph did not touch his wife until after she had given birth to Jesus. What it carefully does not say is that he never touched her at all.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Mary and Joseph had other children.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

For ancient Jews the “first-born” title is applied to the child who opened the womb.
In scripture the word “until” means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point. 2 Samuel 6:23 says that, "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” Are we to assume she had children after her death? Of course not!

Whether Mary had other children or not doesn't matter to me. It doesn't change my faith in Jesus. I suspect you already know the argument against the theory you articulated and since no one has the authority to settle this matter we will all continue to believe what we want and stay divided in the truth instead of united in the truth as one body.

 

[StanJ]

You, StanJ, invented this statement: I, Tom55, did not invent the Immaculate Conception Doctrine; I only quoted it!

Can you show me where it says in scripture that a person is sinless until the age of reasoning? (which it seems you have placed around the age of 7-10)

Can you show me in scripture the answer to this question that I asked you: What about a person born with a mental disability who can not be accountable for what they do and they live until the age of 85? Are they sinless until the day they die?

According to you a person remains sinless until they commit their first sin at the age of reasoning (age 7-10). Show me in scripture where Mary committed a sin? She was sinless at least until the age of 7-10 so show me a scripture passage saying she sinned after that.

My intent is not to be confrontational but only better understand what you are trying to say.

Yes, if you want to call my response invention, but regardless of who instigated the doctrine, you seem to be supporting it so I'm responding to you.

it's throughout scripture tom, in many places that talk about obey being culpable if you had knowledge that their actions are wrong. God kno0w, so I don't need to be exact in when. James 4:17 (NIV)

If they don't have the capacity to KNOW the difference, then yes they are sinless. One cannot sin if one does not know the difference between right and wrong.

Well if that IS the case then act like that instead of contradicting what I do post by quoting opposing views. I can' t really tell from your style that you are questioning and not opposing.

 

[Barrd]

Strictly speaking, grape juice is wine...it just hasn't fermented yet. Put it in a bottle made of animal skin and store it at desert temperatures for a bit, and you'll have wine. It won't taste too good, I'm afraid...but it'll be wine, for all that.

Wine: an alcoholic drink made from fermented grape juice
Grape Juice: the usually sterilized and often diluted juice of grapes used as a beverage

Strictly speaking, grape juice is NOT wine since wine but it can become wine after it has fermented. One can get you drunk; the other can't...not the same!!
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/11/welchs-grape-juice-started-sacramental-wine/

Baptism-all I know is that the person being baptized is supposed to be thoroughly wet.
G907 (Strong)
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
Total KJV occurrences: 80

I clearly referred to "submersion" baptism as being believed by some denominations. So one can not become "fully or thoroughly wet" unless they are submerged? How about if I throw 50 glasses of water on you; would that make you fully wet? Or stand out in the rain for 20 minutes; would that make you "fully wet"? My point is it doesn't have to be submersion for it to be valid.

What does a person do that wants to be baptized that is physically unable (medical condition) to be submerged? Can they NOT be baptized?

My point is scripture does not say you have to be submerged to be baptized even though it is the preferable method. Archeologist have discovered 2nd century churches that had baptismal fonts that were not big enough for submersion and art work that depicts baptism with a sea shell which is why in Christianity the sea shell has become the symbol for baptism. Furthermore if you read early Christian writings (such as the Didache) they clearly refer to alternative choices to submersion. Therefor the practice of submersion baptism is not based on the complete definition of baptizo, it is not biblical, it is not historical and submersion is not required to be saved as some churches teach which supports my statement that some churches believe things that are not in scripture. The Immaculate Conception is not in scripture but it is believed by some denominations. Who are you or I to tell them they are wrong?


The Immaculate Conception teaching puts Mary on the same level as Jesus Christ. There can be only one Jesus.

Scripture puts Mary on the same level as Jesus: "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb". (Mary called blessed AND the fruit of her womb, Jesus, called blessed). I am not saying she is a Goddess just saying she is, according to scripture, much more than your average woman.

Who says we don't commit sin until we are seven? We sin from the cradle. We are not held accountable for our sins until we are able to tell the difference between right and wrong. For some, that might be seven years old, I suppose...but it is different for each person. The point, of course, is that we all sin. Including Mary.

So you believe in original sin? That we are born with sin? Some on this thread have said we are not born with sin. I thought you were one of them?

The Bible clearly tells us that Joseph did not touch his wife until after she had given birth to Jesus. What it carefully does not say is that he never touched her at all.
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Mary and Joseph had other children.
Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

For ancient Jews the “first-born” title is applied to the child who opened the womb.
In scripture the word “until” means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point. 2 Samuel 6:23 says that, "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” Are we to assume she had children after her death? Of course not!

Whether Mary had other children or not doesn't matter to me. It doesn't change my faith in Jesus. I suspect you already know the argument against the theory you articulated and since no one has the authority to settle this matter we will all continue to believe what we want and stay divided in the truth instead of united in the truth as one body.

You're being a bit technical. 2000 years ago, the term for juicing the grapes was "winepress".

Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

Bottom line...you're not going to drink enough when you take the Communion, even to quench your thirst, let alone to get you drunk...so, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about it.

Some people get overly fussy about baptism, imho. The point is what is happening between your heart and God's...and that is all that is really important.

No, scripture does not put Mary on the same level as Jesus. Unless you want to add to that list everyone who was blessed by God. Let's see...that would include Noah and his sons:

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

and Abraham:

Gen 24:1 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things.

and Isaac:

Gen 25:11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahairoi.

and Jacob:

Gen 35:9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

And we're only getting started. Truly Mary was "blessed among women", but that didn't make her equal with Jesus. Mary was the daughter of two human beings.
Jesus is the Son of God.
Mary died, just like any other mortal woman.
Jesus was raised from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father.
Mary can not give you eternal life.
Only Jesus can do that.

I don't think you've ever heard me say that we are not born with sin. I've raised seven kids, Tom. I know what selfish little monsters they are. You may have heard me say that a baby is not accountable for sin, which is only common sense. It is up to us to help the little darlings understand the difference between right and wrong. And I know that they all mature at different rates. Some might be what we call "accountable" as early as five or maybe even younger. Others, not till they are 12 or so. God knows. Then there are those unfortunate souls who will never reach maturity.
Then, again, if we are going to teach our kids the difference between right and wrong, we need to have a firm grasp of these concepts ourselves.

In our modern terms, "until" means the same thing. Now, if the verse read that Mary had no other children till the day of her death, I'd have to rethink my stance, here, wouldn't I? Of course, it would still be possible for her to have a normal married relationship with her husband and not have any more kids...but that isn't they way it worked out. There are four brothers and we don't know how many sisters that need to be accounted for.
Yes, I've heard the nonsense that Joseph married the young Mary in his old age, after having those other kids, but that doesn't make any sense at all. Where were those kids when Joseph had to go and register for the tax? Surely they would all have had to make the trek to Bethlehem? Of course, if they were not born yet, that problem disappears.

Sure, some are going to believe whatever they want anyway.
Me, I prefer to search the scriptures for the truth....

 

[tom55]

Yes, if you want to call my response invention, but regardless of who instigated the doctrine, you seem to be supporting it so I'm responding to you.
It was either an invention on your part or you quoted someone else. None the less, thank you for your admitting you invented (or whatever word you want to use) it. Some on this website have a problem with admitting when they misrepresent things. Could you quote me where I said I support the Immaculate Conception doctrine? To be honest I find the doctrine plausible! How could a sinless Jesus be born from a sinful body?

it's throughout scripture tom, in many places that talk about obey being culpable if you had knowledge that their actions are wrong. God kno0w, so I don't need to be exact in when. James 4:17 (NIV) If you start at James 4:13 and read all the way thru 4:17 one can easily see that you are taking it out of context and it does not support your theory.

If they don't have the capacity to KNOW the difference, then yes they are sinless. One cannot sin if one does not know the difference between right and wrong.
So we agree that a person can be sinless thru adulthood if they don't know the difference between right and wrong. I would contest it was possible for Mary to be sinless thru the birth of Jesus because even though she knew the difference between right and wrong thru the grace of God she did not act on it. Therefor her body was pure (sinless) when she gave birth to a sinless man.

Well if that IS the case then act like that instead of contradicting what I do post by quoting opposing views. I can' t really tell from your style that you are questioning and not opposing.

 

[Wormwood]

tom55,

I am no expert on this doctrine, but from my understanding, Catholics believe in the concept of original sin and feel that all who are born of Adam are culpable with the guilt of Adam. Thus, Mary had to be born miraculously to prevent her body from the original sin, passed on through Adam's "seed." This "original sin" is passed on by birth, not by sinful acts. So the idea is that Mary was born without a human father in order to prevent her from being tainted from birth with the effects of Adam's original sin.

The concept that a person is not a sinner unless they knowingly commit a sinful act is not a Catholic doctrine. If this was their view then there would be no need for the doctrine of the immaculate conception (Mary being born without the aid of a man). Again, I am not an expert on the matter but that is my understanding of how the logic behind the doctrine goes.

 

[Barrd]

tom55,

I am no expert on this doctrine, but from my understanding, Catholics believe in the concept of original sin and feel that all who are born of Adam are culpable with the guilt of Adam. Thus, Mary had to be born miraculously to prevent her body from the original sin, passed on through Adam's "seed." This "original sin" is passed on by birth, not by sinful acts. So the idea is that Mary was born without a human father in order to prevent her from being tainted from birth with the effects of Adam's original sin.

The concept that a person is not a sinner unless they knowingly commit a sinful act is not a Catholic doctrine. If this was their view then there would be no need for the doctrine of the immaculate conception (Mary being born without the aid of a man). Again, I am not an expert on the matter but that is my understanding of how the logic behind the doctrine goes.

I thought the Catholic tradition was that Mary's parents were Joachim and Anne? Joachim was a plain ol' mortal man.
His wife, Anne, however, was a Saint.

 

[justaname]

The Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, was the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the womb of her mother, Saint Anne, free from original sin by virtue of the foreseen merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but God acted upon her soul (keeping her "immaculate") at the time of her conception

From WICI

 

[Barrd]

The Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, was the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the womb of her mother, Saint Anne, free from original sin by virtue of the foreseen merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but God acted upon her soul (keeping her "immaculate") at the time of her conception

From WICI

Thank you, Justaname.
I believe that Mary was pure and innocent. But not "immaculate".
She was a great lady...but she was a mortal woman, who died like any other mortal woman. She was blessed among women, yes...but not on the same level as Jesus Christ.

 

[justaname]

Thank you, Justaname.
I believe that Mary was pure and innocent. But not "immaculate".
She was a great lady...but she was a mortal woman, who died like any other mortal woman. She was blessed among women, yes...but not on the same level as Jesus Christ.

I would further to say she is the most blessed amongst women as she is the Theokokos.

As far as her being immaculately conceived I am unsure, yet the evidence in Scripture is weak. It is possible God kept her from sin on the merits of Jesus. This would in no way place her on Jesus' level as Jesus is the atonement for sin, while Mary is the vessel for the atonement. As the Catholic doctrine holds Mary is dependent on God for her sinless state through the foreseen merits of Jesus. It is still Jesus' atoning act that justifies Mary. This then would be similar to her simply having faith in Christ. Her righteousness is imputed by God through Christ's righteousness. Mary would be in this state from before birth.

Now as far as the story of her death you should know it was not ordinary. Have you ever thought...where is her grave? It is true the story of her death did not make it into the cannon of Scripture, yet that does it invalidate the truth of the story. The Bible is not exhaustive in the realm of actual history. Many "convincing proofs" go on unrecorded daily.

 

[Barrd]

I would further to say she is the most blessed amongst women as she is the Theokokos.

As far as her being immaculately conceived I am unsure, yet the evidence in Scripture is weak. It is possible God kept her from sin on the merits of Jesus. This would in no way place her on Jesus' level as Jesus is the atonement for sin, while Mary is the vessel for the atonement. As the Catholic doctrine holds Mary is dependent on God for her sinless state through the foreseen merits of Jesus. It is still Jesus' atoning act that justifies Mary. This then would be similar to her simply having faith in Christ. Her righteousness is imputed by God through Christ's righteousness. Mary would be in this state from before birth.

Now as far as the story of her death you should know it was not ordinary. Have you ever thought...where is her grave? It is true the story of her death did not make it into the cannon of Scripture, yet that does it invalidate the truth of the story. The Bible is not exhaustive in the realm of actual history. Many "convincing proofs" go on unrecorded daily.

I think the word you are looking for is Theotokos, or "God-bearer".

I do not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and while I am sure that she was a Virtuous Woman, I do not believe that she was without sin. Her conception, just like yours, or mine, or anyone else's came about through an act of sex between her mother and her father. There was nothing "immaculate" about it.
After Jesus was born, Joseph and Mary had a normal married life, including a sexual relationship that resulted in four more sons, and an unspecified number of daughters who are mentioned in the Bible.

I've never really been terribly curious about her death, although I am sure, when the time came, God allowed her to slip quietly away in her sleep. There is absolutely no way we can know for sure what happened after that. Personally, I believe that those destined for heaven go there directly, however, I could be wrong about that.

Yes, Mary deserves our respect, our praise, even our reverence....but not our worship, which is for God alone. Mary was and is a great lady, to be sure.

But she is not a goddess....

 

[StanJ]

It was either an invention on your part or you quoted someone else. None the less, thank you for your admitting you invented (or whatever word you want to use) it. Some on this website have a problem with admitting when they misrepresent things. Could you quote me where I said I support theImmaculate Conception doctrine? To be honest I find the doctrine plausible! How could a sinless Jesus be born from a sinful body?

Tom, formulating a response is NOT inventing, so I really don't understand why you are stuck on this word other than to deflect? Obviously you did in the post before this, that I responded to, or are you just the kind of person who argues for argument sake? Your understanding or lack thereof has no bearing on the lack of evidence postulated by the RCC doctrine.

If you start at James 4:13 and read all the way thru 4:17 one can easily see that you are taking it out of context and it does not support your theory.

Then you will have to SHOW that, and not just state it.

So we agree that a person can be sinless thru adulthood if they don't know the difference between right and wrong. I would contest it was possible for Mary to be sinless thru the birth of Jesus because even though she knew the difference between right and wrong thru the grace of God she did not act on it. Therefor her body was pure (sinless) when she gave birth to a sinless man.

Again you equivocate. Not KNOWING is not the same as CLAIMING to not know. Regardless Mary KNEW, and Jesus said ALL men/women have sinned.
You have to actually SHOW what you claim from scripture tom, not just ASSERT it.

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[Wormwood]

Thanks for the clarification justaname.