The Immaculate Conception Error!

[tom55]

Well that does seem to be a problem for you. The keyword would be "attached", and that is factual. As I said, the ONLY immaculate conception was Jesus'.
ALL have sinned, ALL fall short, even Mary, and the RCC has indeed tried to justify their dogma over the years with papal edicts that of course don't fly with what the Bible does teach.

It is VERY clear the RCC did not "attach" anything to the Immaculate Conception doctrine. It was pronounced on December 8, 1854 and has not changed since. In other words they have not made any attachments to it as you have said so it is NOT FACTUAL.

YOU say the only Immaculate Conception was Jesus so I will ask you AGAIN....what makes you right and the RCC wrong?

Also, it is interesting that you didn't include my full quote in post #155. This is what I said that you accidently(?) left out: The link YOU provided supports what I said.

The link YOU provided says NOTHING in the definition of Immaculate Conception about her perpetual virginity. If it does would you please quote it for me?

Why did you leave that portion out and not answer my question?

Furthermore when you say things like, "Well that does seem to be a problem for you" when someone tells you they don't understand what you are trying to say, it means you are either being condencending or you can't back up what you have said so you tell the other person it is their problem.

I feel like you were being condescending to me......but I ain't mad at ya'.

 

[Barrd]

That is what I have read (born without original sin) from the doctrine/teachings of the RCC. I suspect if you wanted to read their rationale on it you could go to a reliable Catholic website and read how they have come to believe it. I have read that they do not believe that she did not need a savior as you have suggested. When I research I use catholic.com (my preference) or newadvent.org

I suspect that if God wanted to keep her sinless then God could do that. However, maybe you don't think He has that power?

I am quite sure that if God wanted, He could keep us all sinless, Tom.
However, He seems to prefer letting us work through our humanity. He is always there to help us, if we ask Him to...but He does not do it for us.

Clever of Him, don't you think?

 

[tom55]

I am quite sure that if God wanted, He could keep us all sinless, Tom.
However, He seems to prefer letting us work through our humanity. He is always there to help us, if we ask Him to...but He does not do it for us.

Clever of Him, don't you think?

Sounds like we agree then. God could have made Mary sinless therefor it is possible that she was sinless just like the RCC and other Churches teach.

 

[StanJ]

It is VERY clear the RCC did not "attach" anything to the Immaculate Conception doctrine. It was pronounced on December 8, 1854 and has not changed since. In other words they have not made any attachments to it as you have said so it is NOT FACTUAL.

YOU say the only Immaculate Conception was Jesus so I will ask you AGAIN....what makes you right and the RCC wrong?

Also, it is interesting that you didn't include my full quote in post #155. This is what I said that you accidently(?) left out: The link YOU provided supports what I said.

The link YOU provided says NOTHING in the definition of Immaculate Conception about her perpetual virginity. If it does would you please quote it for me?

Why did you leave that portion out and not answer my question?

Furthermore when you say things like, "Well that does seem to be a problem for you" when someone tells you they don't understand what you are trying to say, it means you are either being condencending or you can't back up what you have said so you tell the other person it is their problem.

I feel like you were being condescending to me......but I ain't mad at ya'.

No, it is clear they have, but you just haven't read any of it. What makes me sure of my facts, is the Bible and the Scriptures you have been given. ALL have sinned, except Jesus. Therefore Mary was NOT immaculate in any way shape or form. Nor did she remain a virgin, nor do we pray to her.
I simply stated you appear to have a problem understanding what I say or how I say it?

 

[tom55]

No, it is clear they have, but you just haven't read any of it. What makes me sure of my facts, is the Bible and the Scriptures you have been given. ALL have sinned, except Jesus. Therefore Mary was NOT immaculate in any way shape or form. Nor did she remain a virgin, nor do we pray to her.
I simply stated you appear to have a problem understanding what I say or how I say it?

You still haven't answered my questions. You have confused me even more.

I will agree with you on this: I have a problem understanding what you say or how you say it!!!!

 

[Barrd]

Sounds like we agree then. God could have made Mary sinless therefor it is possible that she was sinless just like the RCC and other Churches teach.

No, Tom, we do not agree.
God has never used His power to make anyone sinless.
Instead, He came here Himself, and lived a sinless life in our place.

Sure, He could have created a race of robots. He chose not to.
Halelujah!

 

[mjrhealth]

No, Tom, we do not agree.
God has never used His power to make anyone sinless.
Instead, He came here Himself, and lived a sinless life in our place.

Sure, He could have created a race of robots. He chose not to.
Halelujah!

What she said, no one will steal Gods glory from Him not even Mary, she must be rollinh her eyes just like the disciples and wandering what the heck we are doing. Its sheer madness.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

To say that Mary was born without the taint of original sin, would mean that she did not sin, yes?
If she did not sin, then why would she need a Savior?
If she did not sin, why could she not have been the Savior, herself?

If you are walking side by side with Jesus(or whoever) and you are on the verge of falling into a puddle of mud, but that person catches you before it actually happens, then you have still been "saved" in a sense.

Most of the teachings on the blessed mother were originally made official to defend the belief of the deity of Christ. Go back to as early as Nicea, we had heretics coming up with their wack theories and they needed to be refuted, thus a council with decrees being made.

In any event, keeping Mary pure leaves no doubt about the purity of our Lord. And so I suspect that is why the church is so adamant about this. I must admit that this is the one belief that I cant find any scriptural evidence for and very little about if from the ECF's. The church says it, they have a promise from our Lord and so they cant go wrong. So for me as a Catholic, that settles it. Obviously protestants strenuously object, and that is totally understandable given their position.

 

[StanJ]

If you are walking side by side with Jesus(or whoever) and you are on the verge of falling into a puddle of mud, but that person catches you before it actually happens, then you have still been "saved" in a sense.

Most of the teachings on the blessed mother were originally made official to defend the belief of the deity of Christ. Go back to as early as Nicea, we had heretics coming up with their wack theories and they needed to be refuted, thus a council with decrees being made.

In any event, keeping Mary pure leaves no doubt about the purity of our Lord. And so I suspect that is why the church is so adamant about this. I must admit that this is the one belief that I cant find any scriptural evidence for and very little about if from the ECF's. The church says it, they have a promise from our Lord and so they cant go wrong. So for me as a Catholic, that settles it. Obviously protestants strenuously object, and that is totally understandable given their position.

Hi VCS....welcome to the fray.

Mary was chosen based on God's plan and where she aligned in the lineage of David. She didn't need to be our because NOTHING can taint God, not even His own human flesh. To be blessed and full of grace was just that, she had done NOTHING to warrant her selection other that be the vessel God chose for noble purposes.

 

[Barrd]

If you are walking side by side with Jesus(or whoever) and you are on the verge of falling into a puddle of mud, but that person catches you before it actually happens, then you have still been "saved" in a sense.

Most of the teachings on the blessed mother were originally made official to defend the belief of the deity of Christ. Go back to as early as Nicea, we had heretics coming up with their wack theories and they needed to be refuted, thus a council with decrees being made.

In any event, keeping Mary pure leaves no doubt about the purity of our Lord. And so I suspect that is why the church is so adamant about this. I must admit that this is the one belief that I cant find any scriptural evidence for and very little about if from the ECF's. The church says it, they have a promise from our Lord and so they cant go wrong. So for me as a Catholic, that settles it. Obviously protestants strenuously object, and that is totally understandable given their position.

What does Mary's purity or lack thereof have to do with the purity of our Lord? If she did, as I believe, go on to have a normal married life with her husband, including having sex with him, and bearing more children, how would that somehow make Jesus a sinner? It wouldn't even make Mary a sinner, fapeetsakes! There is no sin at all in a woman having sex with her husband.

No, there is no scriptural evidence whatsoever about "the immaculate conception" of Mary. Honestly, it means so much more to see Mary as a normal baby, conceived in the normal way, who became a normal little girl, who grew up to be a normal woman. For a normal woman to have a child by the Holy Spirit Who is perfect, without sin, is truly a miracle.

Mary does not have to be "immaculate" in order to be full of virtue. She does not have to be "immaculate" for her husband to praise her. She does not have to be "immaculate" for her children to rise and call her blessed. She can certainly be "blessed among women without being "immaculate". There was never any need to make up a bunch of stuff about the Mother of God...as if God somehow needed help with the woman He chose to bring forth Jesus. Couldn't you just trust Him to make the right choice, without "writing in" stuff about Mary that the Bible does not say?

Have you not heard of the virtuous woman of Proverbs?

Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

The church could not have been content to have Mary be virtuous...nothing would do but she had to be "immaculate".
Sorry, but there has only ever been ONE who was born without sin...and that came through His Father, not His mother.

 

[Veni_Creator_Spiritus]

Hi VCS....welcome to the fray.

Mary was chosen based on God's plan and where she aligned in the lineage of David. She didn't need to be our because NOTHING can taint God, not even His own human flesh. To be blessed and full of grace was just that, she had done NOTHING to warrant her selection other that be the vessel God chose for noble purposes.

Hey Stan! Thanks for the welcome! Look forward to good talks with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think that's correct, but it actually goes all the way back to Genesis 3:15. This was God's plan from the beginning and He had Mary as the chosen one, IMO. Wasn't just a random event.

What does Mary's purity or lack thereof have to do with the purity of our Lord? If she did, as I believe, go on to have a normal married life with her husband, including having sex with him, and bearing more children, how would that somehow make Jesus a sinner? It wouldn't even make Mary a sinner, fapeetsakes! There is no sin at all in a woman having sex with her husband.

No, there is no scriptural evidence whatsoever about "the immaculate conception" of Mary. Honestly, it means so much more to see Mary as a normal baby, conceived in the normal way, who became a normal little girl, who grew up to be a normal woman. For a normal woman to have a child by the Holy Spirit Who is perfect, without sin, is truly a miracle.

Mary does not have to be "immaculate" in order to be full of virtue. She does not have to be "immaculate" for her husband to praise her. She does not have to be "immaculate" for her children to rise and call her blessed. She can certainly be "blessed among women without being "immaculate". There was never any need to make up a bunch of stuff about the Mother of God...as if God somehow needed help with the woman He chose to bring forth Jesus. Couldn't you just trust Him to make the right choice, without "writing in" stuff about Mary that the Bible does not say?

Have you not heard of the virtuous woman of Proverbs?

Pro 31:10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Pro 31:11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
Pro 31:12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
Pro 31:13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
Pro 31:14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
Pro 31:15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
Pro 31:16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
Pro 31:17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
Pro 31:18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
Pro 31:19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
Pro 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
Pro 31:21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
Pro 31:22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
Pro 31:23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
Pro 31:24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
Pro 31:25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
Pro 31:26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
Pro 31:27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
Pro 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
Pro 31:29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
Pro 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Pro 31:31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

The church could not have been content to have Mary be virtuous...nothing would do but she had to be "immaculate".
Sorry, but there has only ever been ONE who was born without sin...and that came through His Father, not His mother.

I was just referring to her being free from original sin and maintaining no personal sin at least until the birth of the Lord.

Clean and pure vessel for the Son of God kind of makes sense if you really ponder it.

And heretics and those who want to refute Christianity come up with all sorts of arguments against it, and that is one of them. That Mary would have passed the stain of sin upon Jesus. Thus, therefore, he could not be a divine person.

If we go back to Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15New International Version (NIV)

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[SIZE=.625em][a][/SIZE] and hers;
he will crush[SIZE=.625em][b][/SIZE] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Now look at the definition of enmity and you get a picture of a very holy person who is totally opposed to Satan:

noun, plural enmities.
1.
a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity;antagonism.

Not expecting protestants to believe Catholic teaching, just giving you a Catholic perspective. ;) Have a blessed day

 

[iakov]

Just another lie.
In all His Love

I'm trying to figure out how to get those two lines to fit...........

iakov

 

[iakov]

... Mary was NOT immaculate in any way shape or form. Nor did she remain a virgin, nor do we pray to her.

What the scripture says about Mary is:
1- She is the highly favored one; the Lord is with her; she is blessed among women! (Luke 1:28)
2- All generations will call her blessed. (Luke 1:48)
3- She is the mother of God the Word made flesh. (John 1:14; Luke 1:35, 43)
4- She is also the mother of all believers if believers are Jesus' brothers and sisters.

As to her perpetual virginity, the arguments against it are based on the misapplication of the modern English usage of the word "brothers" to the ancient, middle-eastern usage of the word which meant (and still does mean today) any close relative. It also requires one to ignore the fact that Jesus, from the cross, gave Mary over to the apostle John to care for her in her old age which care would have been the obligation of the next oldest brother if there were any such brothers according to the modern English meaning of the word.

It is a mildly humorous curiosity to me that some people make such a big stink about the teaching of her perpetual virginity.

As for praying to her, or to any other saint, I believe that arises from the ignorance among many believers as to the intimacy with Christ experienced by those who have gone before us into His presence. As Paul states in Ephesians 5, believers are "one flesh" with Christ as the bride of Christ. In heaven, the believer is inseparably united to God in Christ. As Christ can hear our prayer, so can the saints. And they are interested in what we do as described by the reference to "such a great cloud of witnesses" at Hebrews 12:1. They cannot witness unless they can see and hear and they would not witness unless they were able and interested.

And, if you find asking a saint to pray for you to be contrary to the teachings of scripture, then don't ever ask another believer to pray for you. Otherwise, ask mother Mary to pray for you.

I hope that helps.

iakov

 

[iakov]

StanJ <<<I'm fairly convince that by the time a RC comes to a site like this, they have already refused to accept the true savior and word of God in lieu of their dogmatic religion.>>>

How about the RP's (reformed Protestants) dogmatic religions. (There are many of them which contradict each other.)

I'm astounded that so many people can continue to be devoted to the latest wind of doctrine while claiming to believe only in their "sola scriptura".

Maybe, I'm missing something. So, how did you RPs get to having around 50,000 denominations, sects, independents, et. al. when you all believe in the same infallible, inerrant, sola scriptura while you're all being led into THE truth by the same Holy Spirit? How does that work? SOMEbody has to have some errors somewhere. All 50,000 of you can't disagree with each other and all be right at the same time.

In fact, the only thing you do seem to agree upon is "whats wrong wit them dang KATH-licks." You've all got that down pat. The hatred is uniform.

Do your inerrant, infallible, sola scripturas have John 15:17 and Luke 6:46? 'cause, I'm not feeling the love, my brothers.

iakov

 

[StanJ]

I think that's correct, but it actually goes all the way back to Genesis 3:15. This was God's plan from the beginning and He had Mary as the chosen one, IMO. Wasn't just a random event.

Yes, nothing God ever planned was random, it was all based on His foreknowledge before time began. This is not the same as foreordaining mind you.

 

[StanJ]

I'm trying to figure out how to get those two lines to fit...........
iakov

None of us regulars have been able to figure him out, and many of us have him on ignore. Welcome to CB.

 

[StanJ]

How about the RP's (reformed Protestants) dogmatic religions. (There are many of them which contradict each other.)

I'm astounded that so many people can continue to be devoted to the latest wind of doctrine while claiming to believe only in their "sola scriptura".

Maybe, I'm missing something. So, how did you RPs get to having around 50,000 denominations, sects, independents, et. al. when you all believe in the same infallible, inerrant, sola scriptura while you're all being led into THE truth by the same Holy Spirit? How does that work? SOMEbody has to have some errors somewhere. All 50,000 of you can't disagree with each other and all be right at the same time.

In fact, the only thing you do seem to agree upon is "whats wrong wit them dang KATH-licks." You've all got that down pat. The hatred is uniform.

Do your inerrant, infallible, sola scripturas have John 15:17 and Luke 6:46? 'cause, I'm not feeling the love, my brothers.

iakov

Just to be clear, are you referring to reformed Theology, what is termed RT or Calvinism here, or are you referring to Protestants as reformed Roman Catholics?

As far as the Holy Spirit is concerned, IMO, one cannot be lead by Him, if one has never received Him as demonstrated by Paul in Acts 19:1-7 (NIV)

It can get heated here, so try not to take a thing I may say personally, unless it clearly is. ;)

FYI, I was born and raised in the RCC.

 

[Barrd]

Hey Stan! Thanks for the welcome! Look forward to good talks with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think that's correct, but it actually goes all the way back to Genesis 3:15. This was God's plan from the beginning and He had Mary as the chosen one, IMO. Wasn't just a random event.

I was just referring to her being free from original sin and maintaining no personal sin at least until the birth of the Lord.

Clean and pure vessel for the Son of God kind of makes sense if you really ponder it.

And heretics and those who want to refute Christianity come up with all sorts of arguments against it, and that is one of them. That Mary would have passed the stain of sin upon Jesus. Thus, therefore, he could not be a divine person.

If we go back to Genesis 3:15:

Genesis 3:15New International Version (NIV)

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[SIZE=.625em][a][/SIZE] and hers;
he will crush[SIZE=.625em][b][/SIZE] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

Now look at the definition of enmity and you get a picture of a very holy person who is totally opposed to Satan:

noun, plural enmities.
1.
a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity;antagonism.

Not expecting protestants to believe Catholic teaching, just giving you a Catholic perspective. ;) Have a blessed day

Satan is at enmity with the whole human race.

Have you not read:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[Barrd]

StanJ <<<I'm fairly convince that by the time a RC comes to a site like this, they have already refused to accept the true savior and word of God in lieu of their dogmatic religion.>>>

How about the RP's (reformed Protestants) dogmatic religions. (There are many of them which contradict each other.)

I'm astounded that so many people can continue to be devoted to the latest wind of doctrine while claiming to believe only in their "sola scriptura".

Maybe, I'm missing something. So, how did you RPs get to having around 50,000 denominations, sects, independents, et. al. when you all believe in the same infallible, inerrant, sola scriptura while you're all being led into THE truth by the same Holy Spirit? How does that work? SOMEbody has to have some errors somewhere. All 50,000 of you can't disagree with each other and all be right at the same time.

In fact, the only thing you do seem to agree upon is "whats wrong wit them dang KATH-licks." You've all got that down pat. The hatred is uniform.

Do your inerrant, infallible, sola scripturas have John 15:17 and Luke 6:46? 'cause, I'm not feeling the love, my brothers.

iakov

Actually, Iakov, it is my opinion that none of the denominations "have it right".

My main objection to the "KATHlick" church is the pope. There have been too many totally corrupt popes who have done untold damage.

Then there is that insistence on the "perpetual virginity" of Mary. There are other kids listed in the Bible, so what does the RC do, but write a back story for Joseph, making him an old man with kids from a former marriage. So where were these youngsters when the family had to go to Bethlehem to register for the tax? Oops...

Now, I'm sure Mary was a terrific lady. Blessed among women, yes. Without sin? No. No human being has ever been without sin, save the Lord, Jesus Christ. Otherwise the entire Bible is a lie...

How is it that you cite all these Protestant faiths, but do not see the error in your own? Is there a log in your eye, my brother?

 

[tom55]

No, Tom, we do not agree.
God has never used His power to make anyone sinless.
Instead, He came here Himself, and lived a sinless life in our place.

Sure, He could have created a race of robots. He chose not to.
Halelujah!

I SAID: I suspect that if God wanted to keep her sinless then God could do that. However, maybe you don't think He has that power?

It seemed like we were agreeing when YOU said "I am quite sure that if God wanted, He could keep us all sinless, Tom. "

Your statement suggested that you ALSO thought He has that power. I thought when you said He could keep us all sinless if he wanted we were agreeing since we were both saying THE SAME THING. (sure looks to me like we are agreeing)

Where it seems we disagree is that He WOULD keep Mary sinless.

I believe it is more logical He did keep sinless the woman who He choose to bear His sinless son since it doesn't make sense that something sinless (Jesus) could come from something that would have sinned (Mary). I believe it makes more sense that Jesus was born from a pure, sinless womb/woman. That his why He is pure and sinless. You can't get something pure (Jesus) from something that was impure (Mary).