The Gospel of Reconciliation

[JBO]

Christ died only for the saved,

The Bible doesn't say that.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

the damned God created them as vessels of wrath to damn them for their sins

And you obviously think that you are not one of them, but you have no real way of knowing that.

 

[JBO]

Christ died only for the saved, the damned God created them as vessels of wrath to damn them for their sins

If they were saved, why did Christ need to die? Besides, in Calvinism, you have no way of knowing that you are one of the saved and not one of the damned.

 

[brightfame52]

The Bible doesn't say that.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


And you obviously think that you are not one of them, but you have no real way of knowing that.

Jn 3:16-17 is the elect of all nations

 

[brightfame52]

If they were saved, why did Christ need to die? Besides, in Calvinism, you have no way of knowing that you are one of the saved and not one of the damned.

They were saved premised on Christ the Lamb of God slain from the foundation Rev 13:8 thats why He had to die, to pay their debt, which saved them.

 

[JBO]

Jn 3:16-17 is the elect of all nations

It doesn't say that. So much of what you believe simply is not biblical. It is strictly in your wishful imagination.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't say that. So much of what you believe simply is not biblical. It is strictly in your wishful imagination.

Lol it doesnt deny it. Its about the saved believing world of the elect

 

[JBO]

Lol it doesnt deny it.

ROFL. And that response makes your posts just that much more ridiculous. With your mode of argument one could use the Bible to assert anything and everything.

Its about the saved believing world of the elect

Again, that is not what it says.

 

[Rightglory]

Christ though He is God, yet He is Man and as Man He was faithful to God and believers are His Seed, but they are not born believers yet they shall be born again into believers because they are His Seed, spiritual seed

Amazingly your first part is correct. The verse does not speak about believers. It is addressing mankind. Mankind's flesh and blood.
The word "seed" here refers to Abraham's seed. Abraham's seed are those who had the same faith as did Abraham. It was for that purpose, that Christ died, to have believers. Believers would not be possible if Christ had not become man so as to defeat the devil, who had the power over death and sin. I Cor 15:16-19.
You have not shown any scripture to support your idea of limited atonement.
You need to posit that Christ assumed a human nature of flesh and blood that was ONLY consubstantial with those you claim are predestined as believers.
Do we have some kind of people living on this earth, unbelievers who do not possess flesh and blood or at least a different form of same?

 

[brightfame52]

Amazingly your first part is correct. The verse does not speak about believers. It is addressing mankind. Mankind's flesh and blood.
The word "seed" here refers to Abraham's seed. Abraham's seed are those who had the same faith as did Abraham. It was for that purpose, that Christ died, to have believers. Believers would not be possible if Christ had not become man so as to defeat the devil, who had the power over death and sin.
You have not shown any scripture to support your idea of limited atonement.
You need to posit that Christ assumed a human nature of flesh and blood that was ONLY consubstantial with those you claim are predestined as believers.
Do we have some kind of people living on this earth, unbelievers who do not possess flesh and blood or at least a different form of same?

Christs Spiritual seed must first bear the image of the earthy natural, then they must bear the image of the Spiritual, as they were first born in time of the corruptible fallen adamic, they likewise after must be born of the incorruptible last Adam, thats appropriate to their being conformed to His Image, all predestinated before the world began.

1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[brightfame52]

ROFL. And that response makes your posts just that much more ridiculous. With your mode of argument one could use the Bible to assert anything and everything.

Again, that is not what it says.

It doesnt say it isnt the elect.

 

[Rightglory]

Christs Spiritual seed must first bear the image of the earthy natural, then they must bear the image of the Spiritual, as they were first born in time of the corruptible fallen adamic, they likewise after must be born of the incorruptible last Adam, thats appropriate to their being conformed to His Image, all predestinated before the world began.

Where in scripture did Christ begat spiritual seed. You are grossly confused on this text.
You fail to understand Heb 2:14-17, so we will move on. If you cannot even explain limited atonement theologically how would you understand scripture. Scripture never uses the term, not that it has to, but there in never an implication that Christ performed a limited atonement.

1 Cor 15:49

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This verse is the continuation of the theme of the resurrection of Christ of I Cor 15. We have the summary of events between the first Adam and the Second Adam in I Cor 15:21-22. Once again, I might remind you, this text literally refutes such a thing as a limited atonement categorically.
Your citation of vs 49 is in the middle of the context where Paul is showing the comparisons of the first Adam to the Second Adam. Vs42 begins with the resurrection of the dead. 1st Adam - body sown in corruption, - death. Christ's raised that body to incorruption.. Vs 44 or more comparisons between the two. I call your attention to vs 46 which gives the sequence of Christ's redemption of man.
Man was first redeemed as natural, then the spiritual. This is actually the reverse of the 1st Adam, who died spiritually first, the then death came to mankind. Christ was born Incarnate, died and was resurrected, naturally first, then was able to provide the spiritual to mankind through His Life. Vs 49 is speaking of mankind, There is nothing in this chapter that is actually referring to believers relative to the comparison between Adam and Christ. Our image of the earth was our mortal nature, due to Adam's sin, At the resurrection all men will bear the Image of the Heavenly. What is that image, all men will be raised immortal and incorruptible which is stated in vs 53-54.
The subject of this whole discourse is between death and life of mankind. There is no reference to believers specifically.

1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Which refers to our faith in Christ, which a person is changed by the word of God. We are born again, regenerated, by faith and baptism.
This is only possible because Christ defeated Satan by His resurrection who held the power over death and sin.

 

[JBO]

It doesnt say it isnt the elect.

But the Calvinist definition of the elect is anti-biblical.

 

[brightfame52]

Where in scripture did Christ begat spiritual seed. You are grossly confused on this text.
You fail to understand Heb 2:14-17, so we will move on. If you cannot even explain limited atonement theologically how would you understand scripture. Scripture never uses the term, not that it has to, but there in never an implication that Christ performed a limited atonement.


This verse is the continuation of the theme of the resurrection of Christ of I Cor 15. We have the summary of events between the first Adam and the Second Adam in I Cor 15:21-22. Once again, I might remind you, this text literally refutes such a thing as a limited atonement categorically.
Your citation of vs 49 is in the middle of the context where Paul is showing the comparisons of the first Adam to the Second Adam. Vs42 begins with the resurrection of the dead. 1st Adam - body sown in corruption, - death. Christ's raised that body to incorruption.. Vs 44 or more comparisons between the two. I call your attention to vs 46 which gives the sequence of Christ's redemption of man.
Man was first redeemed as natural, then the spiritual. This is actually the reverse of the 1st Adam, who died spiritually first, the then death came to mankind. Christ was born Incarnate, died and was resurrected, naturally first, then was able to provide the spiritual to mankind through His Life. Vs 49 is speaking of mankind, There is nothing in this chapter that is actually referring to believers relative to the comparison between Adam and Christ. Our image of the earth was our mortal nature, due to Adam's sin, At the resurrection all men will bear the Image of the Heavenly. What is that image, all men will be raised immortal and incorruptible which is stated in vs 53-54.
The subject of this whole discourse is between death and life of mankind. There is no reference to believers specifically.

Which refers to our faith in Christ, which a person is changed by the word of God. We are born again, regenerated, by faith and baptism.
This is only possible because Christ defeated Satan by His resurrection who held the power over death and sin.

Im finished with you for right now, I did take time to explain my view

 

[brightfame52]

But the Calvinist definition of the elect is anti-biblical.

Says you

 

[Rightglory]

Im finished with you for right now, I did take time to explain my view

I appreciate your view. However, you were unable to show any scripture to support your view. You were unable to explain or give a theological argument for your view.
Scripture does not have many interpretations. Texts don't have many meanings.

 

[JBO]

Says you

And most non=Calvinists.

 

[brightfame52]

I appreciate your view. However, you were unable to show any scripture to support your view. You were unable to explain or give a theological argument for your view.
Scripture does not have many interpretations. Texts don't have many meanings.

Okay but unfortunately you cant see the scripture support I provided and I cant help that.

 

[Rightglory]

Okay but unfortunately you cant see the scripture support I provided and I cant help that.

You have a serious disconnect between your theology and scripture. You add to scripture texts or just misinterpret them trying to support an errant view. You did not accept the simple meaning of Heb 2:14-15. You attempt to twist very clear language to fit your view when scripture does not say what you either want or think it should mean.
You have no understanding of how Christ reconciled the world, It probably stems from the fact you do not understand the fall, thus cannot understand what Christ did to correct the fall.

 

[brightfame52]

God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ !

2 Cor 5:18

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

According to this scripture, how did God reconcile [believers] to Himself ? Was it by their faith or repentance ? Was it by their obedience ? Does it say it was by their own freewill ? No, it was none of that which they did, no act of theirs, but He did it by Jesus Christ, meaning by His Death on the Cross 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned or reconciled unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

His death, and all it effected, set in motion reconciled those He died for back to God, the word reconciled in 2 Cor 5:18 is the greek word katallasoo , which means : I change, exchange, reconcile, change as when Two parties reconcile together, like marriage partners who had been estranged and at odds 1 Cor 7:11

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

The word also denotes a change from enmity to friendship ! Not Gods enmity towards them, but their enmity towards God. By nature those whom Christ died for and reconciled to God were themselves enemies in their minds towards God, for so says the scriptures Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

All men by nature are with a carnal mind, that's natural for men 1 Cor 3:3

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he[Jesus Christ] reconciled

Now understand, this enmity we have by nature against God is overcome by the effects of Christ's death, causing us to come into a friendship/ fellowship in our hearts and affections towards God and the things of God, and of course our Faith to come to Him in a pleasing manner Heb 11:6 arises out what Jesus Christ by His work of the Cross effected ! Thats what Paul taught in 2 Cor 5:18 and Col 1:21 !

Now in 2 Cor 5:18 who are the Us ? 2 Cor 5:18

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Its all them He reconciled to God while they were being enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The Us of 2 Cor 5:18 is consistent with the we of Rom 5:10, in fact that word reconciled is the same in both places !

And folks ultimately thats who Christ died for, those who by Him come to Faith/ Friendship and Fellowship experimentally with God Triune !

BTW, that's who the world is in 2 Cor 5:19, a world of men and women of all nations, whose natural enmity against God has been overcome, and they be experimentally brought into the Fellowship/Friendship with God again through Jesus Christ, to whom be all the Glory ! 10

 

[Rightglory]

God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ !

2 Cor 5:18

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

A good example of lifting a text out of context that seemingly states what you say. Paul is writing, actually speaking to Christians, however Paul in the very next verse explains that it is not just believers that were reconciled. It clearly says God was in Christ reconciling t he WORLD to Himself,
Now, if one uses your understanding we have a conumdrum with vs 20 which says that since we (Christians) have been reconciled to God then why does Paul implore those same people he is writing to to actually reconcile themselves to God. Obviously there are two different reconciliations taking place.
Rom 3:24 makes the same claim.
Also, Col 1:16-20 is even more direct in who or what Christ reconciled - ALL THINGS, then gives what the phrase entails. Never does it separate out believers.
We also know from the corollary found in John 6:39 states of all who were given to HIm He will lose nothing. I will raise it up in the last day. I Cor 15:53-54 makes it very clear that all the dead will be raised, not just believers.
Vs 40 then makes the distinction. Of all those He will raise up, those that see and believe will have everlasting life. Again two different reconciliations taking place. None support your view.

According to this scripture, how did God reconcile [believers] to Himself ? Was it by their faith or repentance ? Was it by their obedience ? Does it say it was by their own freewill ? No, it was none of that which they did, no act of theirs, but He did it by Jesus Christ, meaning by His Death on the Cross 1 Pet 2:24-25

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned or reconciled unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

His death, and all it effected, set in motion reconciled those He died for back to God, the word reconciled in 2 Cor 5:18 is the greek word katallasoo , which means : I change, exchange, reconcile, change as when Two parties reconcile together, like marriage partners who had been estranged and at odds 1 Cor 7:11

If the Cross is mentioned as it does in I Pet 2:24-25 the reconciling is of Christ to God. Believers are not even in the picture as particular. They are part of the world, of all things reconciled to God. When it comes to believers, it is they that reconcile themselves to Christ by faith.
By the way in almost every case, the words, justification, reconcile, righteous all have the same meaning. To join together, to make right, as in your example of marriage, also between your bank statment and checkbook.

11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

The word also denotes a change from enmity to friendship ! Not Gods enmity towards them, but their enmity towards God. By nature those whom Christ died for and reconciled to God were themselves enemies in their minds towards God, for so says the scriptures Rom 5:10

Rom 5:10 means every human being. It is in the context of Rom 5:12 where death came to all men. Then the solution, comes in verse 18 where all were given the free gift of life. That life is a physical life, an eternal existence which man lost due to Adam's sin and the condemnation of death in Rom 5:12, Gen 3:19. This is also summed in I Cor 15:21-22. This is a equation. Both sides are equal. As all died through Adam, so all were given life by Christ.
If you think that vs 8-10 is referring to believers, then you would need to posit that all others in this world are non-sinners and Christ did not need to die for them. This makes your view to say that all un-blievers are actually non-sinners.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

All men by nature are with a carnal mind, that's natural for men 1 Cor 3:3

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he[Jesus Christ] reconciled

Now understand, this enmity we have by nature against God is overcome by the effects of Christ's death, causing us to come into a friendship/ fellowship in our hearts and affections towards God and the things of God, and of course our Faith to come to Him in a pleasing manner Heb 11:6 arises out what Jesus Christ by His work of the Cross effected ! Thats what Paul taught in 2 Cor 5:18 and Col 1:21 !

Now in 2 Cor 5:18 who are the Us ? 2 Cor 5:18

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Its all them He reconciled to God while they were being enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The Us of 2 Cor 5:18 is consistent with the we of Rom 5:10, in fact that word reconciled is the same in both places !

And folks ultimately thats who Christ died for, those who by Him come to Faith/ Friendship and Fellowship experimentally with God Triune !

BTW, that's who the world is in 2 Cor 5:19, a world of men and women of all nations, whose natural enmity against God has been overcome, and they be experimentally brought into the Fellowship/Friendship with God again through Jesus Christ, to whom be all the Glory ! 10

All the above has already been answered. I might add that your statements are quite disjointed because you don't really understand what the clear text, (in context) is actually saying. You tend to isolate a text and then apply it to your understanding notwithstanding the context in all cases, and scripture as a whole are totally contradictory.
This goes directly to your faulty understanding of the Incarnation of Christ where a limited atonement is an absolute impossibility.