The GENDER Issue again :)

[reformed1689]

Imago Dei.

Wonderful, you know Latin....

 

[Oceanprayers]

Wonderful, you know Latin....

Sadly, you don't.

 

[michaelvpardo]

If you knew Paul's writings and ministry you'd know how foolish you sound.

I know them well enough for the Holy Spirit to give me recall of any passage and apply it to any situation. You obviously don't know them at all.

 

[reformed1689]

Sadly, you don't.

What does knowledge of Latin have to do anything to do with this topic?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Actually, God is like me. Because I'm made in his image and likeness.

And being God creates all things both of and from himself, you both sound foolish all the way back to Eden.

Adam's rib was from the dust of the earth God made of and from himself.

It wasn't by a woman that sin entered the world. It was by one man.

Paul praised women apostles in his ministry. Women walked and served with Jesus. Disciple means student. Women and men walked and served with Jesus.

And what is clearly ignored by the two of you? When Paul said we are all one in Christ.
Galatians 3:28

When you don't believe that, you're wrong.

Your views are what are called "heresy", but thanks for proving our point.
The same Paul you quote laid out a specific order to the church, a specific order to the family and expressly forbid women to teach in the church quoting Genesis to make it clear that women are more readily decieved.

Over the course of the last 40 years or so, I've known more than a few men who've made it their goal in life to deceive women just enough to "score" with them, some racking up huge numbers of such "scores", but such behavior has become irrelevant in the last few decades with the growing feminist movement and the notion that sexual immorality is perfectly acceptable social behavior. How old are you, what's the source of your vast wisdom and experience?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Actually, God is like me. Because I'm made in his image and likeness.
And being God creates all things both of and from himself, you both sound foolish all the way back to Eden.

Adam's rib was from the dust of the earth God made of and from himself.

It wasn't by a woman that sin entered the world. It was by one man.

Paul praised women apostles in his ministry. Women walked and served with Jesus. Disciple means student. Women and men walked and served with Jesus.

And what is clearly ignored by the two of you? When Paul said we are all one in Christ.
Galatians 3:28

When you don't believe that, you're wrong.

You've gotten exactly one thing correct in this post. Sin did come through one man, Adam, because Eve was decieved. Adam made the choice to transgress God's commandment.
That's exactly the point of the scriptural prohibition on women speaking in the church, having authority over men, and teaching the congregation. You don't want the decieved teaching, in authority, or babling nonsense out of poor reasoning just as you are doing right now.

 

[Enoch111]

Edit: I may have complimented you too soon if you agree with Enoch!

Nancy "likes" this snide remark? Shame on you Nancy. :cool: Enoch is a Biblicist, not a Chauvinist. Actually women should be delighted that they do not need to carry the same burden of responsibility as men.

 

[Enoch111]

It wasn't by a woman that sin entered the world. It was by one man.

If you follow the sequences of events carefully, it was Eve who offered Adam the forbidden fruit. Had he been smart, he would have turned it down.

 

[Oceanprayers]

If you follow the sequences of events carefully, it was Eve who offered Adam the forbidden fruit. Had he been smart, he would have turned it down.

Immaterial to the reality of the Genesis narrative. What matters is what happened.

By one man sin entered the world.
The man failed to be the head of the woman. I.E guide her in all truth and wisdom out of love for God and for Eve.

And the whole human race has paid the price ever since.
And Jesus, the second Adam, paid the price to change what Adam brought into the world. Sin. Death.

Adam.Not Eve.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you follow the sequences of events carefully, it was Eve who offered Adam the forbidden fruit. Had he been smart, he would have turned it down.

Immaterial to the reality of the Genesis narrative. What matters is what happened.

By one man sin entered the world.
The man failed to be the head of the woman. I.E guide her in all truth and wisdom out of love for God and for Eve.

And the whole human race has paid the price ever since.
And Jesus, the second Adam, paid the price to change what Adam brought into the world. Sin. Death.

Adam.Not Eve.

God help me, I can't stay out of these things completely sometimes.

The parallel between husband and wife is Christ and the church, and was it or was it not foreshadowed through Adam and Eve? As Paul said in one place, "the mystery is great, but I speak of Christ and the church," and in another, "the woman being deceived was in transgression." It means that according to orthodox Christianity, Adam ate knowing full well what he was doing, but like Christ after him, he ate out of love for his wife so that she might not be alone in her sin, but have an advocate standing with her before God. So too with Christ. He was made sin for us that we might be joined to Him, and have an Advocate before God, and judgment might be turned away from us. And as a result, God honored both Christ and His bride, and they will be victorious over sin and death when all is said and done, and it was through this victory that Adam and Eve are in Heaven today, and enjoying Paradise together once again.

@Oceanprayers: I'm not staying in this long because I know how round and round it can go, but why the dishonor to either Adam OR Eve in the narrative? Why is it always, "She was the bad guy" or "He was the bad guy"? Why not rather honor to them both as examples of Christ and His bride, that out of love for one another they overcame the penalty of sin together, and in refusing to be apart from one another God had compassion upon them in the end?

And that's enough for me. Gets a little too mushy-gushy even for Mr. Emotional, but honestly, the whole Biblical narrative ends up being a story of redemption and victory. Why the focus on when they suffered their terrible defeat?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You can't both agree with God if you don't hold to the same belief.

Women do not have leadership roles in the church. That is what Scripture states. Period.

That's fine, I'm not going to argue with you on it. But I hear God's voice and have learned to obey Him explicitly. And I have asked Him questions and have received answers immediately. I believe what He said.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If you follow the sequences of events carefully, it was Eve who offered Adam the forbidden fruit. Had he been smart, he would have turned it down.

@Oceanprayers is right. They still didn't know they were naked after Eve ate, but did once Adam ate. Why? Eve's was ignorantly unintentional against God, but Adam's was willfully against God.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Immaterial to the reality of the Genesis narrative. What matters is what happened.

By one man sin entered the world.
The man failed to be the head of the woman. I.E guide her in all truth and wisdom out of love for God and for Eve.

And the whole human race has paid the price ever since.
And Jesus, the second Adam, paid the price to change what Adam brought into the world. Sin. Death.

Adam.Not Eve.

You can't undo what was done and Adam clearly instructed Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. We know this because according to the biblical narrative, Eve was not yet created from Adam's side, when Adam was commanded not to eat of that tree. Adam acted as the head, but Eve listened to and believed Satan. She was decieved, but Adam willfully broke the commandment after Eve brought Him some of the fruit. Scripture doesn't say so, but the assumption is this was because He wasn't going to abandon the "flesh of His flesh" to suffer death by herself, but cherished her as Hidden in Him has posted.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You can't undo what was done and Adam clearly instructed Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. We know this because according to the biblical narrative, Eve was not yet created from Adam's side, when Adam was commanded not to eat of that tree. Adam acted as the head, but Eve listened to and believed Satan. She was decieved, but Adam willfully broke the commandment after Eve brought Him some of the fruit. Scripture doesn't say so, but the assumption is this was because He wasn't going to abandon the "flesh of His flesh" to suffer death by herself, but cherished her as Hidden in Him has posted.

Eve's sin was ignorantly unintentional against God, but Adam's was willfully against God. It is amazing to me that Paul didn't even mention this to Timothy. Why not speak against men seeing as they are the most likely to be rebellious. Why just against women here and to the Corinthians? It was actually part of Jewish culture, not New Covenant. Jesus liberated women.

 

[ScottA]

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Timothy 2:11-14
I personally don't have a problem with spiritually mature women speaking or taking part in biblical studies. I really appreciate Charity's contributions on the forums and find her posts both thoughtful and insightful, but what do you make of 1 Timothy 2:14 and how is that limited to a single time frame in eternity?

Did you know that men and women rarely use both sides of their brain equally? Human physiology normally favors one hemisphere for men and the opposite hemisphere for women. Want to guess which side governs rational thought and which favors emotion?

You can artificially induce the forming brain to reverse male and female thought through early hormone therapy, and this does happen accidentally sometimes, but it's a rare human being that has a fully functional and fully integrated brain and this is by design (unless you reject scripture and cling to evolutionary theory.) The "roles" of men and women in the family are biologically predetermined, not random chance or choice, but we're being taught to accept the unnatural by the world. Did God make a mistake?

The first Adam is a foreshadowing of the Last Adam. The Beginning and the End, are not Christ, but both are His story. But the point is, that mankind has been identified by the appointed portrayals given to men and women by God in the scriptures, as having been taken out of the Head of the church whom is Christ the Bridegroom (as foreshadowed by the first Adam), with the Master plan being to return again in the Oneness of marriage.

Interesting info on men's brains, vs. women's. Here's another: The brain feels no pain.

 

[ScottA]

Jesus didn't correct Moses, but explained Moses' permission to divorce as an act of grace " because of the hardness of your hearts."

Well...Jesus did say that "it was not so from the beginning." But, yes, it was permitted by grace.

 

[ScottA]

Except women aren't quiet in the church. They're pastors, Sunday school teachers, members of the choir, prayer leaders, elders, and pastor's wives.

Paul being misunderstood isn't to say God agrees. Else he wouldn't call women to serve now, as he did when they walked with Jesus, and served as apostles alongside Paul.

And God's design insures women are the gateway by which new God given life enters this world.

Gender roles? God made Adam and Eve equals in their origin. Both created of and from God.

God said in marriage the two become one.
It's man's sin that calls women deficient because of their sex. Not God who made them to serve as mothers of to the future.

I'm not sure from your post, but you may have missed the point.

The point is that in the greater eternal context that Paul's commandment to women eludes to, is both men and women are to be silent in church--which is in accord with the Bridegroom, saying, "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

In other words, in the greater context of being the bride of Christ, men have no more advantage, and women have no less advantage, other than the roles assigned to them. Roles that should be kept, but both as unto the Lord in marriage.

 

[ScottA]

For a man who spiritualizes, you can sure cover a lot of ground : )

The above I would applaud in theory. In practice, however... you set the bar too high. The context for this teaching was specifically when they were dragged before magistrates and Sanhedrins and interrogated.

11 When you are brought before synagogues, rulers, and authorities, do not worry about how to defend yourselves or what to say. 12 For at that time the Holy Spirit will teach you what you should say.” (Luke 12:11-12)

It is a principle we should live by when important moments and important decisions come. But asking for some more catsup at the Burger King? I think the Lord likely allows us to say it any way we want to, brother.

Just saying. :)

If it were only that...that is just what came to mind. But Paul's word was less specific and more all encompassing, saying "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me", as was Jesus at other times, saying also, as He prayed, "I in them."

 

[Cooper]

The gender issue keeps popping up..

And those even with the best of intensions of being true and faithful to the word of God, still refer to Paul's commandment for women to be "silent in church" as if that smaller purpose of which Paul spoke was also the greater purpose of God in His word to all generations.

Yes, it was good and appropriate of Paul to address the needs of the time and correct those causing disorder in the church, and that he did. But taking it on that level only, is not the higher way of God. That's thinking to small.

Just as the object of all parables is not the subject, Paul's smaller contention, was not God greater contention. It was give in parable--words to live by, yes, but with a greater meaning that must be explained...as it is with many parables.

God did not create gender to portray the kingdom of God as having a Mr. & Mrs. God.

He rather took woman from the man to portray them as becoming one flesh again, and then after we should have understood that much, He revealed the greater mystery of marriage (first by Jesus, and then through Paul), as portraying the church as the bride, and Christ as the Bridegroom.

Now, for those who want to continue the elementary understanding of "women being silent in church"...do you really want to exclude yourself from the church which is the bride of Christ, who are all portrayed in the scriptures being as women becoming One with Christ, the Bridegroom? I should think not.

Who then should "be silent in church?" All, should be silent. This is why that little story of unruly women made it into the greater context of the holy scriptures for all eternity. Who then, should speak? Did Christ not explain, that "it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you?"

So Jesus and Paul did not ultimately mean to silence women, but to speak to all by His own spirit. Which is not to say that men and women do not have their perspective roles to portray. Nor is it to say that men have more of the Holy Spirit to offer. But it is the will of God that we portray Him properly before those who are coming into the church having been drawn, not by men or women, but by God.

Therefore, men and women alike should be silent in church, not speaking their own words, but God's. Period. This is the will of God for the church, for the bride of Christ, that we should make straight the way of the Lord.

As you say, people should not chatter in church. It is not an issue now everyone speaks the same language. The problem was, the women only knew the language of the marketplace.

 

[Enoch111]

Eve's was ignorantly unintentional against God

The Bible record shows that Eve was NOT ignorant of what God had said, but (1) she misrepresented the words of God and then (2) she voluntarily and wilfully submitted to her lusts rather than obey God. But even though Eve was culpable, God held Adam responsible.

GENESIS 3: THE FALL
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that [1] the tree was good for food, and that [2] it was pleasant to the eyes, and [3] a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

All the words of Eve in red are MISREPRESENTATIONS of what God had actually said to Adam (which he no doubt conveyed to Eve otherwise she could not have made those statements):

GOD SAID: "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"
EVE SAID: "We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden"
Conclusion: the omission of "freely" minimized the free grace of God

GOD SAID: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil..."
EVE SAID: "the tree which is in the midst of the garden"
Conclusion: this was an attempt to obfuscate exactly which tree was forbidden

GOD SAID: "thou shalt not eat of it" (no mention of touching)
EVE SAID: "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it"
Conclusion: this was an attempt to misrepresent was was actually said

GOD SAID: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
EVE SAID: "lest ye die" (even Satan admitted, but contradicted, what God actually said)
Conclusion: this was an attempt to minimize the certainty of the penalty for disobedience

Then we have the three lusts of Eve laid out, and after that we have Eve persuading Adam to also disobey God.