The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey brother,

Let me attempt to clarify. It does not say the last week doesn't start until the antichrist signs a 7-year peace treaty,

It says that the antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant with many. That covenant with many can be made and then at a later time, the Antichrist can confirm it.

For example the UN SDG7 covenant is a 7 year plan for sustained development growth for 7 years that was drafted in Sept 2023. The original SDG plan was drafted in 2015 but the goals were falling behind so they drafted the SDG7. At a later time, the Antichrist could confirm this covenant. This is just an example of something that could happen. Nothing to see here. Move along. Don't look back. Move along. Yeah, nothing to see here.

Great story. Makes for great fiction.

Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood. Nothing to see here.

And, according to you, people inexplicably stopped eating and drinking and marrying when he went on to the ark even though they wouldn't have thought him going on to the ark, in and of itself, would have meant anything since they didn't believe the flood was coming. Him merely going on to the ark certainly wouldn't have changed their minds about whether they believed the flood was coming or not.

So, because of the lack of food and water from not eating or drinking for 6 days, many people died even before the flood came from starvation and dehydration. LOL! See what kind of nonsense your beliefs lead to? Give them up already. Please join reality.

 

[Brakelite]

Matthew 24
Before the flood one taken , one left.
Pretrib. Half of a group is taken

Nowhere did you address " before the flood"
Jesus went on to actually TELL YOU that The setting IS normal like, peacetime. And commerce.
One taken, And one left..... BEFORE THE TRIB/FLOOD.

The description of the end times given in Matthew 24 described by Jesus, is a picture of a world where the vast majority are carrying on life as if everything is normal and nothing amiss. Marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking, as if the world is going to last forever and all is well.
The people of the world were doing this, right up until the flood. And what did the flood do? It took them all away. So who was left behind?
Those who were working at their living and doing normal household chores, such as grinding wheat, repairing houses, etc, what happened to the ones that were left?
Luke gives us the same conversation, but offers some more information.
KJV Luke 17:34-36
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
KJV Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?
What is this the disciples are asking? Where are they left behind? That makes no sense. No, they are asking, "where are they being taken to"? And Jesus gives them the answer...the same place where the flood victims were taken to...reminiscentof this passage in...
KJV Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Jesus's answer to the question, "where are they being taken", was

And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Those taken are destroyed. They cry out from the caves and the mountains, fall on us and hide us from the face of the Lamb!! The ones left behind, such as Noah, Lot etc, are the ones who survived. The ones who survived the final plagues are those protected from them by God himself. Read Psalm 91. These are the ones who after witnessing the destruction and punishment of the wicked, are translated and taken to glory. They return to the earth inside the New Jerusalem 1000 years later to witness those wicked dead resurrected to face their final judgement.

And what is the result of the final plagues and wars that ravish mankind before the Jesus comes soon? A millennium of peace? A 1000 years where Jesus rules and his people live in harmony with each other and with God? Let's see what scripture says about planet Earth after Jesus is finished with dispensing His wrath....
KJV Isaiah 24:16-20
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous... (Which is what you guys are preaching, glory to the righteous, a millennium of peace and safety on the earth with Jesus reigning)
...but I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

KJV Jeremiah 25:15-33
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people;
20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod,
21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon,
22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,
23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners,
24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,
25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,

26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.​

27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

 

[Brakelite]

Never heard that before. We can tell that is incorrect by what happens at the 7th trumpet.

Where are you getting this stuff?

Scripture. Not Left Behind fiction novels based on Jesuit teaching from the counter reformation.

 

[Brakelite]

Prohetica day equals years. So, 7 days 7 years.

Interesting you accept this truth. And I couldn't agree with you more. Prophetic time is symbolic, just like the rest of prophecy. But the Bible itself tells us how to interpret the symbols.
Prophetic time is understood by a principle, day for a year. One day in prophecy equals a literal year in real time.
KJV Numbers 14:34
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

KJV Ezekiel 4:6
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Now, you may think, how do we know that applies to the prophecy of Daniel? We know because it came true and was proven historically.
70 weeks=490 days=490 years.

KJV Daniel 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There were 3 decrees which gave the Hebrews permission to return home from Babylon. The decree of Cyrus in 537bc had to do with rebuilding the temple and restoring the sacred vessels and the worship. (Ezra 1:1-4.)
The decree of Darius in 519bc was a repeat of the former one of Cyrus, because there had been opposition and interference. (Ezra 6:7-12)
The 3rd and final decree was from Artexerxes in 457bc. This not only included the temple restoration and worship, but also the city and the wall, making possible the restoration of the Jewish state and a local government. (Ezra 7:26).
These 3 decrees were referred to by Ezra in Ezra 6:14 as one... The commandment of the God of Israel. The first 7 weeks...49 days/years, was dedicated to the rebuilding of the wall. 62 weeks later...434 days/years... Brings us to 27ad... The year Jesus was baptized, and annointed by the holy Spirit as Messiah, from which time His official ministry began.
That left one week...7 years... To complete Israel's probation. The Messiah was killed in the midst of that week (Daniel 9:27) , after 3 and 1/2 years, in 31AD, and the final 3 and 1/2 years was the nations final opportunity to accept their true King and Messiah, whom they spurned, the apostles and disciples obeying Jesus when He commanded them "to go first to the list sheep of the house of Israel". 70 weeks complete...490 years...457BC to 34AD. Given to Daniel.

But what of other time periods? Why is it that people such as yourself recognise the day/year principle in Daniel 9, but ignore it in Daniel 7 and Revelation 11,12, and 13? If you applied that principle to the passages referring to the Antichrist, God reign, and to the church persecuted under his rule, you would immediately recognise who precisely the Antichrist is. And then you would appreciate how long he has been around, his present position, and understand where he fits into the future. No guesswork. The prophecies already lay it out, and history has spoken in harmony. Why look to the future for another when the true Antichrist already stand revealed and meeting all the essential criteria... including the 1260 years of his first phase of power?

 

[rebuilder 454]

No wonder you abandoned Postrib, if this influenced your decision. I have already refuted this. You had no answer to what I submitted. This is a sandy foundation to build your beliefs on.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. The objective Bible student can quickly discern that this name consistently pertains to true believers in the New Testament.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christians alone are “redeemed” through the blood of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:68, 24:21, Gal 3:13, 4:5. Titus 2:14 and 1 Peter 1:18). The unregenerate have not partook in this life-changing experience.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

Anyone.
I mean anyone can see 2 gathering in mat 24.
Same for rev 14..

Ask yourself a question.
Why is it postrib teachers avoid the bride/groom dynamic?
That dynamic is the absolute heart of end times.
All of Heaven is Waiting for the bride and the groom to unite. The Bible ends with the bride calling out to the groom, asking the groom to come.
It is the next major event ,and could possibly be the greatest event, outside of the Advent of Jesus, the world has ever seen. And yet you could go through hours of postribber teachers on YouTube, and never hear a word about it.
False doctrine in many,many ways.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Scripture. Not Left Behind fiction novels based on Jesuit teaching from the counter reformation.

Who are the ones left behind in mat 24 "one taken/left"?
Who are the ones left behind, in the virgins parable?
You are an expert on it.
Please give us the correct interpretation.

 

[MA2444]

Do you believe that Jesus's death is crucial to bringing about the fulfillment of any of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24?

If so, do you include His death somewhere within the 70 weeks? Since it says He would be cut off after the 69th week (Daniel 9:26), then that would place His death within the 70th week. Can you tell me why you don't place His death within the 70th week if you agree that His death fulfilled any of Daniel 9:24, like making reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity (sin)?

Why? Tell me why I should take the time to even answer you? You believe what you believe and who knows that is but it doesn't line up with what I believe, and you dont really seem interested in maybe learning more. I dont think you are trying to learn the truth... you're doing something else. Because you talk to me halfway reasonable to get me talking, but then you reserve your true attitude and show it in posts like this at times"

It's absolutely unbelievable and stunning. The childishness of some of the posters here is just out of control. How can they be that immature when discussing scripture on a forum like this? They are completely reckless with scripture. They never use scripture to interpret itself. They make up new definitions for words to make scripture fit their false doctrines. They add extra-biblical nonsense to scripture while acting like it is equal to scripture. They say the kind of immature things that I haven't seen or heard since I was a kid. It boggles my mind.

See what I mean? Now it dont hurt my feelings for you to believe other than I do. People disagree all the time. That post of your reveals a certain...disconnect from the topic that should be present within such discussions. If I did that in school or someone else, they used to make them stand in the corner, lol. You and wpm are neither one exhibing any sort of connect to any conversation about (whatever). And that's sorta academically weird, ya know what I mean? So I do feel like it's a waste of time to engage you in conversation about much at all because you got some sort of hidden chip on your shoulder or something. Weird.

Just because you may or may not know a little truth doesn't for a good conversation make so believe what you want to believe and go hug your pastor wpm and maybe you should put a dollar in his plate lol. What do I think about Daniel 9? What do I think about this or that? Behold, it is a Mystery to you my friend.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The description of the end times given in Matthew 24 described by Jesus, is a picture of a world where the vast majority are carrying on life as if everything is normal and nothing amiss. Marrying and giving in marriage, eating and drinking, as if the world is going to last forever and all is well.
The people of the world were doing this, right up until the flood. And what did the flood do? It took them all away. So who was left behind?
Those who were working at their living and doing normal household chores, such as grinding wheat, repairing houses, etc, what happened to the ones that were left?
Luke gives us the same conversation, but offers some more information.
KJV Luke 17:34-36
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
KJV Luke 17:37
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?
What is this the disciples are asking? Where are they left behind? That makes no sense. No, they are asking, "where are they being taken to"? And Jesus gives them the answer...the same place where the flood victims were taken to...reminiscentof this passage in...
KJV Revelation 19:17-18
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Jesus's answer to the question, "where are they being taken", was

And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Those taken are destroyed. They cry out from the caves and the mountains, fall on us and hide us from the face of the Lamb!! The ones left behind, such as Noah, Lot etc, are the ones who survived. The ones who survived the final plagues are those protected from them by God himself. Read Psalm 91. These are the ones who after witnessing the destruction and punishment of the wicked, are translated and taken to glory. They return to the earth inside the New Jerusalem 1000 years later to witness those wicked dead resurrected to face their final judgement.

And what is the result of the final plagues and wars that ravish mankind before the Jesus comes soon? A millennium of peace? A 1000 years where Jesus rules and his people live in harmony with each other and with God? Let's see what scripture says about planet Earth after Jesus is finished with dispensing His wrath....
KJV Isaiah 24:16-20
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous... (Which is what you guys are preaching, glory to the righteous, a millennium of peace and safety on the earth with Jesus reigning)
...but I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

KJV Jeremiah 25:15-33
15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
16 And they shall drink, and be moved, and be mad, because of the sword that I will send among them.
17 Then took I the cup at the LORD'S hand, and made all the nations to drink, unto whom the LORD had sent me:
18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, and his servants, and his princes, and all his people;
20 And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz, and all the kings of the land of the Philistines, and Ashkelon, and Azzah, and Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod,
21 Edom, and Moab, and the children of Ammon,
22 And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,
23 Dedan, and Tema, and Buz, and all that are in the utmost corners,
24 And all the kings of Arabia, and all the kings of the mingled people that dwell in the desert,
25 And all the kings of Zimri, and all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of the Medes,

26 And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.​

27 Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you.
28 And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.
29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.
30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

QUOTE
"Those taken are destroyed. They cry out from the caves and the mountains, fall on us and hide us from the face of the Lamb!! The ones left behind, such as Noah, Lot etc, are the ones who survived."

You just proclaimed half of some group, that fellowship together ,are taken and destroyed
Before the flood.
Then you jumped way into the flood/ trib, and claim they are alive and asking to die.

Please give it some rational thought and think up something else

Here are the actual components:
1, setting, Jesus has proclaimed the setting to be before the flood of his coming.

2 , in the setting we see normal life, buying and selling, and peacetime.

3, we see that we have half of a group taken and half of that same group left behind.( this group can not possibly half of earths population...absolutely impossible)

4, we see that Jesus is telling the reader to watch and be ready in the setting of Before the Flood.

I know it is next to impossible, but try and formulate, a postrib rapture, WITHOUT omitting and manufacturing components.

Oh, BTW, that idiom Jesus used with bodies and vultures.....
Psssst....."raining cats and dogs", has no cats or dogs dead on the ground from falling from rain clouds

You took an idiom, with no ACTUAL birds or bodies, and BASED YOUR ENTIRE interpretation on something THAT IS NOT THERE.
Again you can not take an idiom, misread it, then omit the components!!!!
Really??????

 

[rebuilder 454]

Well how long is your trib? Stop avoiding? Is this a dirty little secret?

No matter how long it is, you can not void the pretrib rapture verses, nor cancel the bible that declares in Rev 14 that Jesus gathers Remnant Jews DURING THE GT.

It is akin to arguing how long the WTC buildings took to collapse to the ground. Therefore they never fell.

Just go with 3 yrs, 6 years, 40 years, or whatever you like.
No time frame voids " before the flood,"

 

[MA2444]

Hey brother,

Let me attempt to clarify. It does not say the last week doesn't start until the antichrist signs a 7-year peace treaty,

It says that the antichrist confirms a 7 year covenant with many. That covenant with many can be made and then at a later time, the Antichrist can confirm it.

For example the UN SDG7 covenant is a 7 year plan for sustained development growth for 7 years that was drafted in Sept 2023. The original SDG plan was drafted in 2015 but the goals were falling behind so they drafted the SDG7. At a later time, the Antichrist could confirm this covenant. This is just an example of something that could happen. Nothing to see here. Move along. Don't look back. Move along. Yeah, nothing to see here.

Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood. Nothing to see here.

I guess we disagree on that then.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can you stop your blabbering and make a coherent argument for once?

Tell us your understanding of Matthew 25:1-13. Go through it verse by verse so we can see how you interpret it.

What is your understanding of the bride of Christ? Use scripture to support your answer. Making claims without backing them up and without showing how you come to your conclusions is meaningless.

Half taken in mat 24 "before the flood"
You = Jesus is blathering.
Half the virgins ( believers) taken in mat 25.
You= Jesus blathering
Psssst...Jesus, not me, just destroyed your doctrine.
Why? Because those two 50-50 divisions,spoken in the same breath, can not possibly be half the world's population.
So I ask you guys to say who they are.
You don't get it????
NONE OF YOU CAN ANSWER ME.
NONE OF YOU.


I report the word of God, , and watch postribbers get irate.

Mat 25
So simple and easy like every single parable, but without illumination , without basic understanding , they cannot be understood. Every parable is like a mystery.
Jesus said he spoke in parables so that only his little remnant could understand , because he would Enlighten them as to the meaning.

Now in this parable we have 10 virgins. So simple, so basic.
"Virgins" are pure undefiled and set apart.
They are obviously, without a doubt ,Christian believers, saved saints of God. These virgins have oil lamps, light , and are waiting for Jesus.
All 10 obey the command of the angels to come out and wait.
The bridegroom is delayed.
That's the period of time we're in.
Next the bridegroom actually appears.
And half the virgins, that have oil , trim their laps.
(That means they make them brighter. )

But the foolish have run out of oil. So they asked the wise to give them oil.
Oil represents the Holy Spirit every single time.
(That's another simple basic no-brainer. )
We see, in the book of acts, the Holy Spirit given via the laying on of hands by believers. In other words the anointing is transferable. (As we see in the book of Acts several times).
Paul received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.
(This is the foolish asking the wise for some of their oil).
Now you can tell this was a natural occurrence, because they said ," not at this time."
It was too late.
The wise needed the oil that they had.
So we see the difference between the wise and the foolish is only one thing, and that one thing is the oil.
When the groom comes he takes half the church.

All are saved but not all are the bride.
We know it's the bride and we know it's the groom because it says it's the groom.
The Bible says the door is shut ,and the bride and the groom go into the marriage chamber. Those five foolish virgins are left behind. They face the Antichrist and are martyred right away. They are seen in heaven as the innumerable number that had dirty robes that needed washing. They are the foolish virgins the dirty ropes.
You will trample on every bit of this.
Those care the components THAT MUST BE MUDDIED UP BY POSTRIBBERS

You have just described yourself. You are an expert at projection.

I think of you as a man of God with bad doctrine

Anytime I do go personal it is pushback

Going personal is destructive to the debate.

One day maybe you will get it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I guess we disagree on that then.

I also disagree with him on that issue. But most all of his eschatology i do agree with.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You Pretribbers avoid so much evidence that it is futile engaging with you. There is no teaching on (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ in the passage. It must be forced into the sacred text. I will repeat another avoided post.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Where in the Bible does it say that a seven-year tribulation is the wrath of God? You are just making this up as you go.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly and unprepared in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that we are told none escape ("they shall not escape"). This couldn't be clearer. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return. After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

I posted verses that prove God removes his people

I know of nobody that believes he never lets us go through stuff.
we all know He protects us in those trials, tribulation, demonic attacks etc.

It is as if you read those escape verses, and detest the FACT that God removes his people over and over.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What are the left to? Destruction! Hello!

Really? Only half?

Impossible.
It is 50-50 and that simple little ingredient has all of you frantic and beating the air in desperation.
50-50 friend.
You can not, and never will decipher it.
( unless you remove them special postribber glasses)

 

[MA2444]

Interesting you accept this truth. And I couldn't agree with you more. Prophetic time is symbolic, just like the rest of prophecy. But the Bible itself tells us how to interpret the symbols.
Prophetic time is understood by a principle, day for a year. One day in prophecy equals a literal year in real time.
KJV Numbers 14:34
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

KJV Ezekiel 4:6
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Now, you may think, how do we know that applies to the prophecy of Daniel? We know because it came true and was proven historically.
70 weeks=490 days=490 years.

Yep. The book of Daniel is probably the most accurate and proving book of the Bible. Ezekial and even Jeremiah speaks on the same things. That's why I've said before, if you dont understand Dniel (the OT) then you wont understand Revelation. Daniel told them in prophecy the exact day that Messiah would reveal Himself, and it worked out to the very day that Jesus made His Trriumphant entry into Jerusalem. (Then Messiah was cut off and crucified.)

KJV Daniel 9:25
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There were 3 decrees which gave the Hebrews permission to return home from Babylon. The decree of Cyrus in 537bc had to do with rebuilding the temple and restoring the sacred vessels and the worship. (Ezra 1:1-4.)
The decree of Darius in 519bc was a repeat of the former one of Cyrus, because there had been opposition and interference. (Ezra 6:7-12)
The 3rd and final decree was from Artexerxes in 457bc. This not only included the temple restoration and worship, but also the city and the wall, making possible the restoration of the Jewish state and a local government. (Ezra 7:26).
These 3 decrees were referred to by Ezra in Ezra 6:14 as one... The commandment of the God of Israel. The first 7 weeks...49 days/years, was dedicated to the rebuilding of the wall. 62 weeks later...434 days/years... Brings us to 27ad... The year Jesus was baptized, and annointed by the holy Spirit as Messiah, from which time His official ministry began.
That left one week...7 years... To complete Israel's probation. The Messiah was killed in the midst of that week (Daniel 9:27) , after 3 and 1/2 years, in 31AD, and the final 3 and 1/2 years was the nations final opportunity to accept their true King and Messiah, whom they spurned, the apostles and disciples obeying Jesus when He commanded them "to go first to the list sheep of the house of Israel". 70 weeks complete...490 years...457BC to 34AD. Given to Daniel.

But what of other time periods? Why is it that people such as yourself recognise the day/year principle in Daniel 9, but ignore it in Daniel 7 and Revelation 11,12, and 13? If you applied that principle to the passages referring to the Antichrist, God reign, and to the church persecuted under his rule, you would immediately recognise who precisely the Antichrist is. And then you would appreciate how long he has been around, his present position, and understand where he fits into the future. No guesswork. The prophecies already lay it out, and history has spoken in harmony. Why look to the future for another when the true Antichrist already stand revealed and meeting all the essential criteria... including the 1260 years of his first phase of power?

V 25 prophecises the first 69 weeks of the 70 and after Jesus was crucified and appeared to accomplish nothing. It says (in a different verse) that the 70th week begins the 70th and final week of Daniel's 70 weeks. That's where the gap came from. It's been over 2000 years since then and no Covenant has been confirmed by the antichrist yet. The math to when Jesus made his Triumphant entry was done from the Antazerxes decree. (and 70 yrs later the temple was destroyed).

But what of other Time periods? I havent ignored Daniel 7, I think I even posted a scripture from Daniel 7 in this thread somewhere. But I don't have have it available to memory right now. Everytime I read it, a little bit more of it sticks. And the rest go into my notes. IOW, I may just be behind you on the yellow brick road? I'll get there eventually. The more I read it the more it sticks and gives another brush stroke to the big picture.

Oh, the 1260 years? Prophetical days can be days months or years. But it tells you what it's using, like you've shown in your post once already. I seem to have a different view because
Historicist interpreters have usually understood the "time, times and half a time" (i.e. 1+2+0.5=3.5), "1,260 days" and "42 months" mentioned in Daniel and Revelation to be references to represent a period of 1260 years (based on the 360 day Jewish year multiplied by 3.5).
And they way I understand it is that, this is what means...the Tribulation wil be 7 years.

 

[The Light]

Interesting you accept this truth. And I couldn't agree with you more. Prophetic time is symbolic, just like the rest of prophecy. But the Bible itself tells us how to interpret the symbols.
Prophetic time is understood by a principle, day for a year. One day in prophecy equals a literal year in real time.
KJV Numbers 14:34
34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

KJV Ezekiel 4:6
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Interesting you accept this truth. And I couldn't agree with you more.

How is it you don't understand that the Day of the Lord, the day of His wrath is 1 year long?

The tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal and then the 1-year Day of the Lord begins.

The Messiah was killed in the midst of that week (Daniel 9:27) , after 3 and 1/2 years, in 31AD

Jesus died in 30AD

But what of other time periods? Why is it that people such as yourself recognise the day/year principle in Daniel 9, but ignore it in Daniel 7 and Revelation 11,12, and 13? If you applied that principle to the passages referring to the Antichrist, God reign, and to the church persecuted under his rule, you would immediately recognise who precisely the Antichrist is. And then you would appreciate how long he has been around, his present position, and understand where he fits into the future. No guesswork. The prophecies already lay it out, and history has spoken in harmony. Why look to the future for another when the true Antichrist already stand revealed and meeting all the essential criteria... including the 1260 years of his first phase of power?

I look to the future because there are 7 kings. 5 have fallen, one is and one is yet to come. The 7th king will give His power to the eighth king............who is of the 7.

This has yet to take place.

 

[MA2444]

You already admitted that there's no mention of the Church, tribulation, a second coming, a rapture or a third coming in that passage. You have nothing therefore. You seem to make it up as you go. That may impress your base, it it will not impress the objective Bible student.

Hey, you know what I ran across reading today?! Us Pretribbers who are taken in the rapture get a Crown of Righteousness for watching and eagerly awaiting His return...!!!

2 Timothy 4:8
8 And now the prize awaits me—the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on the day of his return. And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing.../NLT

Are you eagerly looking forward to His return? (I just checked at the wondow and it could be today(!!!) because it's pretty cloudy out there...)
I'm guessing that you're not expecting Him so I dunno if you get this crown or not? Maybe not, IDK.

There's been a lot of truth spoken in this thread. You guys cant stop that, lol! So even if there has been quite a bit of dissention about it, it doesn't matter to the reader. Let them read and pick out the good and keep it, and leave the bad. So overall I think it's been a good thread for that reason. How many is in your congregation by the way?

I have a congregation of one, my loyal dog. He's a good boy. May the Lord shine Wisdom & Understanding upon you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hey, you know what I ran across reading today?! Us Pretribbers who are taken in the rapture get a Crown of Righteousness for watching and eagerly awaiting His return...!!!

2 Timothy 4:8
8 And now the prize awaits me—the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on the day of his return. And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing.../NLT

Are you eagerly looking forward to His return? (I just checked at the wondow and it could be today(!!!) because it's pretty cloudy out there...)
I'm guessing that you're not expecting Him so I dunno if you get this crown or not? Maybe not, IDK.

Even the foolish virgins had enough discernment to expect his immanent return

 

[MA2444]

Even the foolish virgins had enough discernment to expect his immanent return

That's right Brother.

He doesnt even understand that oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit in scripture! I mean, who doesn't know that?

 

[Brakelite]

Who are the ones left behind in mat 24 "one taken/left"?
Who are the ones left behind, in the virgins parable?
You are an expert on it.
Please give us the correct interpretation.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the 'taken away' aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke's passage when the disciples ask Him, "where are they taken to?" Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn't such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:

• The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
• The wicked, who in Noah's day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
• They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
• The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
• The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah's day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?

At the end of the millennium, when the new Jerusalem is sitting on the ancient land of Israel and the saints inside, when the balls of fire fall from heaven and destroy the wicked surrounding the city, who's left behind? Have you appreciated a common thread running through all the above scenarios?

Now, to the parable of the 10 virgins. Simple really. All ten fell asleep. They got bored and tired of waiting for the Lord to come. They fell asleep. When they woke up with the urgency of the second coming being announced, 5 were unprepared. They had trusted in themselves. Grown complacent. Had no light, no power, and no time. They were locked out of heaven, and are similar to that group that the scriptures speak of elsewhere...having the form of godliness but denying the power. (2 Tim.3:1-5) Trusting in that they were righteous, had need of nothing, but in reality were miserable, poor, blind, and naked Revel.3:15-19). Boasting of their record, that they'd done miracles, spoke in tongues, went to church every Sunday and maybe every Sabbath, didn't drink or smoke and never cheated on their taxes. (Matt.7:21-23) But Jesus didn't know them. And presumably, they didn't know Him. All of those above are lost. Cast into the fire where there is weeping, wailing, and teeth grinding.
The two classes of watchers represent the two classes who profess to be waiting for their Lord. They are called virgins because they profess a pure faith. By the lamps is represented the word of God... The oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit. The class represented by the foolish virgins are not hypocrites. They have a regard for the truth, they have advocated the truth, they are attracted to those who believe the truth; but they lack one thing. Surrender to the working of the holy Spirit. They are not wholly sanctified. In
KJV Revelation 10:7 it says,
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
What is this mystery of God that is finished before the second coming? Paul explains here
KJV Colossians 1:26-27
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Christ in you. The answer to being found naked and poor and blind and miserable. The answer to being unsanctified. The answer to being complacent and luke warm. When Christ knocks on the door, answer it and let Him in. (Revel.3:20).

I know. Not very expert, but it's the best I got.