The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics

[Davidpt]

He evidently believes that we need to trust in ChatGPT for understanding rather than the Holy Spirit. ChatGPT simply regurgitates the opinions it finds on the Internet which may or may not be accurate. But, he doesn't seem to understand that.

In this case I was only using Chatgpt to research what some early church fathers had said, meaning maybe it knew of some quotes that supports what @WPM was alleging about Justin, or maybe it agreed with @WPM take on what Justin had said. At least chatgpt is intellectually honest about things and not misrepresenting someone's view like some in here are doing. I will take Chatgpt any day over that of someone misrepresenting someone's view, making that person look like the most idiotic person on the planet. Meaning Justin Martyr in this case.

Too bad I can't say that about Amils at times, that they are being intellectually honest and not blatantly misrepresenting someone's view, where some Amils are insisting that Justin Martyr was so stupid that he believed a millennium could actually follow the 2nd coming without it involving a little season following the millennium. Except there can't be a little season after the millennium if satan is cast into the LOF during the 2nd coming. Name one Premil today who agrees with that, that satan is cast into theLOF at the 2nd comimg and that the millennium follows the 2nd coming.

Justin martyr lived closer to the times of the apostles than we do today. And even today no Premil would dare conclude that satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming and that the millennium follows that.

Clearly, undeniably, @WPM is misrepresenting Justin Martyrs's view. And if that's not bad enough as is, he goes the extra mile to make Justin come across as one that had little to no reading comprehension. That Justin lacked any type of intelligence, that he couldn't even see that there is no way there can be a millennium unless there is a little season that follows it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In this case I was only using Chatgpt to research what some early church fathers had said, meaning maybe it knew of some quotes that supports what @WPM was alleging about Justin, or maybe it agreed with @WPM take on what Justin had said. At least chatgpt is intellectually honest about things and not misrepresenting someone's view like some in here are doing.

Your basis for thinking that someone's view is being misrepresented is an AI that simply gives you information that it finds on the Internet that may or may not be true. Your trust in ChatGPT is unfounded.

I will take Chatgpt any day over that of someone misrepresenting someone's view, making that person look like the most idiotic person on the planet. Meaning Justin Martyr in this case.

LOL! ChatGPT is just giving you the OPINIONS that it finds on the Internet! How do you know that those opinions are correct?

Are you really this naive? Christians have believed idiotic things from the beginning of the NT church. It's not like there were no early church fathers who believed idiotic things. Do I need to prove to you that they believed some idiotic things or are you already aware of that?

Too bad I can't say that about Amils at times, that they are being intellectually honest and not blatantly misrepresenting someone's view, where some Amils are insisting that Justin Martyr was so stupid that he believed a millennium could actually follow the 2nd coming without it involving a little season following the millennium.

You are very naive. You are acting as if all of those early church fathers had access to the Internet and could do the kind of in depth studies we can do now with Bible software and online Bibles. Are you really not aware that they believed some nonsense back then just like many Christians still do now?

Your whole basis for thinking these early church fathers are being misrepresented is ChatGPT and nothing else. Please explain to me why you exalt ChatGPT as if it is all knowing and never gives any feedback that is not true?

Except there can't be a little season after the millennium if satan is cast into the LOF during the 2nd coming. Name one Premil today who agrees with that, that satan is cast into theLOF at the 2nd comimg and that the millennium follows the 2nd coming.

Justin martyr lived closer to the times of the apostles than we do today. And even today no Premil would dare conclude that satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming and that the millennium follows that.

Clearly, undeniably, @WPM is misrepresenting Justin Martyrs's view. And if that's not bad enough as is, he goes the extra mile to make Justin come across as one that had little to no reading comprehension. That Justin lacked any type of intelligence, that he couldn't even see that there is no way there can be a millennium unless there is a little season that follows it.

Clearly, undeniably, you have no actual proof to back up what you're saying. You don't understand that many of the early church fathers did not even speak much about end times doctrine. It wasn't their focus back then. So, it's not surprising that some of them would've believed things that were not true and made no sense. Why do you think he wasn't capable of believing any nonsense when we both know that many Christians believe at least some nonsense?

 

[shepherdsword]

LOL. That is the usual response of Premillennialist when they realize what they're saying is false. Suddenly they become Amillennialists. At least we have gained solid territory today.

LOL....A typical amil twisting of reality to see only what they want to see <sigh>

 

[shepherdsword]

So, now that you agree with us Amillennialists that Satan was bound 2000 years ago, can you give me one single historic quote that shows that these early fathers believed in a second binding of Satan at the second coming for 1000 years?

I will not hold my breath. I know, you know, and the reader knows, you are totally winging it (like DivaD).

This deliverance is not the binding of Satan in the absss. It is to set a captive free. Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven:

Lk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This is in perfect harmony with:

Rv 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We see here that Satan was cast down to earth for a season. It is why he roams the EARTH:

1 Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

This is in stark contrast with:

Rv 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 

[WPM]

Isn't it interesting that Premills can see that Jesus bound the spiritual enemy long ago, but they try to say it only related to casting out demons and nothing more. They miss that Jesus talked about binding the strong man, not the strong men. And they have no idea what the strong man's goods and his house represent.

They don't try to say that the binding of the strong man had anything to do with completely incapacitating the strong man. They see it as him being bound from doing a certain thing. So, they don't see that as being a literal binding. With that being the case, why do they think that the binding of Satan involves him being literally bound to the point of being completely incapacitated? There's never any consistency in the Premill approach to interpreting scripture. It's just random.

... and they only do it when we give them quotes from the early Chiliasts. That is the way the glean their position - from man.

 

[WPM]

In this case I was only using Chatgpt to research what some early church fathers had said, meaning maybe it knew of some quotes that supports what @WPM was alleging about Justin, or maybe it agreed with @WPM take on what Justin had said. At least chatgpt is intellectually honest about things and not misrepresenting someone's view like some in here are doing. I will take Chatgpt any day over that of someone misrepresenting someone's view, making that person look like the most idiotic person on the planet. Meaning Justin Martyr in this case.

Too bad I can't say that about Amils at times, that they are being intellectually honest and not blatantly misrepresenting someone's view, where some Amils are insisting that Justin Martyr was so stupid that he believed a millennium could actually follow the 2nd coming without it involving a little season following the millennium. Except there can't be a little season after the millennium if satan is cast into the LOF during the 2nd coming. Name one Premil today who agrees with that, that satan is cast into theLOF at the 2nd comimg and that the millennium follows the 2nd coming.

Justin martyr lived closer to the times of the apostles than we do today. And even today no Premil would dare conclude that satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming and that the millennium follows that.

Clearly, undeniably, @WPM is misrepresenting Justin Martyrs's view. And if that's not bad enough as is, he goes the extra mile to make Justin come across as one that had little to no reading comprehension. That Justin lacked any type of intelligence, that he couldn't even see that there is no way there can be a millennium unless there is a little season that follows it.

Yah-de-dah-de-dah. More noise, more opinion, and zero evidence.

Do you realize people are watching on?

 

[WPM]

This deliverance is not the binding of Satan in the absss. It is to set a captive free. Jesus saw Satan fall from heaven:

Lk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

This is in perfect harmony with:

Rv 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We see here that Satan was cast down to earth for a season. It is why he roams the EARTH:

1 Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

This is in stark contrast with:

Rv 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Same victory 2000 years ago. Same binding 2000 years ago. Same casting down from heaven 2000 years ago.

Amils agree with Irenaeus and Justin Martyr.

Can you give me one single historic quote that shows that these early fathers believed in a second binding of Satan at the second coming for 1000 years?

 

[WPM]

In this case I was only using Chatgpt to research what some early church fathers had said, meaning maybe it knew of some quotes that supports what @WPM was alleging about Justin, or maybe it agreed with @WPM take on what Justin had said. At least chatgpt is intellectually honest about things and not misrepresenting someone's view like some in here are doing. I will take Chatgpt any day over that of someone misrepresenting someone's view, making that person look like the most idiotic person on the planet. Meaning Justin Martyr in this case.

Too bad I can't say that about Amils at times, that they are being intellectually honest and not blatantly misrepresenting someone's view, where some Amils are insisting that Justin Martyr was so stupid that he believed a millennium could actually follow the 2nd coming without it involving a little season following the millennium. Except there can't be a little season after the millennium if satan is cast into the LOF during the 2nd coming. Name one Premil today who agrees with that, that satan is cast into theLOF at the 2nd comimg and that the millennium follows the 2nd coming.

Justin martyr lived closer to the times of the apostles than we do today. And even today no Premil would dare conclude that satan is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming and that the millennium follows that.

Clearly, undeniably, @WPM is misrepresenting Justin Martyrs's view. And if that's not bad enough as is, he goes the extra mile to make Justin come across as one that had little to no reading comprehension. That Justin lacked any type of intelligence, that he couldn't even see that there is no way there can be a millennium unless there is a little season that follows it.

LOL.

1. So, where did Justin teach "Jesus returns binds Satan, resurrects the righteous, and reigns for 1,000 years? Give us a hard quotes, instead of some computer talking to you.
2. So, where did Justin teach "After that comes the “little season” (cf. Revelation 20:3) when Satan is loosed again"? Give us a hard quotes, instead of some computer talking to you.
3. So, where did Justin teach "Then Satan is finally thrown into the Lake of Fire along with the wicked (Rev. 20:10)"? Give us a hard quotes, instead of some computer talking to you.
4. So, where did Justin teach "Then comes the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11–15)"? Give us a hard quotes, instead of some computer talking to you.

 

[WPM]

Isn't it interesting that Premills can see that Jesus bound the spiritual enemy long ago, but they try to say it only related to casting out demons and nothing more. They miss that Jesus talked about binding the strong man, not the strong men. And they have no idea what the strong man's goods and his house represent.

They don't try to say that the binding of the strong man had anything to do with completely incapacitating the strong man. They see it as him being bound from doing a certain thing. So, they don't see that as being a literal binding. With that being the case, why do they think that the binding of Satan involves him being literally bound to the point of being completely incapacitated? There's never any consistency in the Premill approach to interpreting scripture. It's just random.

You hit the nail on the head. It is duplicity. They wing it with every passage because they have nothing. They blow with the wind. No Scripture is ever safe around them. They will give you whatever answer enables Premillennialism. It is Premillennialism at any cost - even if they know that they are twisting the sacred text.

 

[WPM]

Peter very clearly stated that Satan is now free to roam. This is simply because God permits it. We see the works of Satan everywhere because not all things are YET under Christ's feet. This has nothing to do with the outright lie from hell that premills elevate satan and diminish Christ. It has to do with a direct statement by Paul

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Premils are selective in their quoting of this passage. Rather than quote the full verse they just quote part of it. They side-step the 1st part of that text and only highlight the 2nd in order to deny the current kingship of Christ, and dilute His control over all mankind. What is more, this is the only text they have to argue what they do on this, and even then, they selectively highlight half a text to the exclusion of the other half. Notwithstanding, this has been addressed several times by Amils here, with little acknowledgement. You either ignore or misunderstand the thrust of the text. You are absolutely right "now we see not yet all things put under him."

The fact is: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. But the sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). The other part of the passage that you ignore is: "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Permitting evil and using it for His ultimate glory does not negate Christ’s kingship or Him ruling in divine power.

 

[shepherdsword]

Premils are selective in their quoting of this passage. Rather than quote the full verse they just quote part of it. They side-step the 1st part of that text and only highlight the 2nd in order to deny the current kingship of Christ, and dilute His control over all mankind. What is more, this is the only text they have to argue what they do on this, and even then, they selectively highlight half a text to the exclusion of the other half. Notwithstanding, this has been addressed several times by Amils here, with little acknowledgement. You either ignore or misunderstand the thrust of the text. You are absolutely right "now we see not yet all things put under him."

The fact is: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaderseen) and over all things (good and evil). The other part of the passage that you ignore is: "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him."

Permitting evil and using it for His ultimate glory does not negate Christ’s kingship or Him ruling in divine power.

Thanks for admitting that satan is not bound and there are still enemies to be subjugated. I knew I could guide you yo the truth Paulie.

 

[shepherdsword]

Same victory 2000 years ago. Same binding 2000 years ago. Same casting down from heaven 2000 years ago.

Amils agree with Irenaeus and Justin Martyr.

Can you give me one single historic quote that shows that these early fathers believed in a second binding of Satan at the second coming for 1000 years?

How silly, The whole term "Chiliest" is about the 1000 year binding of Satan during the millenial reign. We don't need a quote from a Miami dolphin saying " I am a football player" when he has a football uniform on

 

[WPM]

Thanks for admitting that satan is not bound and there are still enemies to be subjugated. I knew I could guide you yo the truth Paulie.

The exercising of all authority in heaven and on earth, the sovereign reigning over all His enemies, align with the binding of Satan from deceiving the Gentiles no more. Deceiving the nations no more is talking about the enlightenment of the Gentiles 2000 years ago. The word interpreted "the nations" (ethnos) refers to the Gentiles throughout the New Testament. Those who were once in darkness, bondage and blindness have now saw a great light. The ignorance is gone. They are now without excuse.

 

[WPM]

How silly, The whole term "Chiliest" is about the 1000 year binding of Satan during the millenial reign. We don't need a quote from a Miami dolphin saying " I am a football player" when he has a football uniform on

More avoidance because you have zero evidence. The reader will see that you are devoid of any historic evidence. If you had it, you would give it. This is all party political posturing. It is all noise. This is the new Premil tactic on discussion forums. This is all they have, along with petty name-calling. They have been stripped of their garb by the truth of God. The eschatological battle has been resoundingly won.

Can you give me one single historic quote that shows that these early fathers believed in a second binding of Satan at the second coming for 1000 years?

 

[shepherdsword]

The exercising of all authority in heaven and on earth, the sovereign reigning over all His enemies, align with the binding of Satan from deceiving the Gentiles no more. Deceiving the nations no more is talking about the enlightenment of the Gentiles 2000 years ago. The word interpreted "the nations" (ethnos) refers to the Gentiles throughout the New Testament. Those who were once in darkness, bondage and blindness have now saw a great light. The ignorance is gone. They are now without excuse.

When Satan is truly bound (not in some false metaphoric way dreamed up by Amils) He will be unable to affect the minds of men at all. This results in the 1000 year reign. AFTER which he shall be loosed for a little season. Amil eschatology is obsolete with the re emergence of Israel as a nation. Most protestants agree with these. Of course, there are still some who cling to this papal justification of a current earthly ruler

 

[shepherdsword]

More avoidance because you have zero evidence. The reader will see that you are devoid of any historic evidence. If you had it, you would give it. This is all party political posturing. It is all noise. This is the new Premil tactic on discussion forums. This is all they have, along with petty name-calling. They have been stripped of their garb by the truth of God. The eschatological battle has been resoundingly won.

Can you give me one single historic quote that shows that these early fathers believed in a second binding of Satan at the second coming for 1000 years?

HERE YOU GO

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD)​

• In Against Heresies, Book 5, he lays out a comprehensive chiliastic theology, drawing directly from Revelation 20.
• Describes Satan being bound, the resurrected saints reigning with Christ, and a restored earth.
• Also references Papias, who passed on similar teachings.

“The Lord says, ‘Behold, the days come, in which the Lord shall come, and all His saints with Him... then He shall destroy the wicked with the breath of His mouth and shall bind Satan.’”

Lactantius (c. 250–325 AD)​

• In The Divine Institutes, Book 7, he gives a detailed account of a future millennium, with Christ reigning on earth, Satan bound, and peace restored.

“Then the prince of the devils... shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned through the whole time of the thousand years of the heavenly rule.”

ZING! SNACK ON THAT!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks for admitting that satan is not bound and there are still enemies to be subjugated. I knew I could guide you yo the truth Paulie.

You missed the point entirely. You're not even trying. No wonder you have no discernment. You make no effort to understand.

 

[WPM]

Thanks for admitting that satan is not bound and there are still enemies to be subjugated. I knew I could guide you yo the truth Paulie.

Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:8-10 says, “God … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under [Gr. anupotaktos or not made subject, unsubjected] him. But now we see not yet all things put under [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. This is a present ongoing reality. It is a current arrangement. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.

Premillennialists highlight the phrase “now we see not yet all things put under him.” They present it as evidence that Christ is not ruling at the moment. But they (1) fail to interpret what this is actually saying and they (2) fail to quote all the surrounding evidence as context. This phrase is telling us: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. The process of subjugation is ongoing to the second coming.

The sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is definitely not out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, as God sees fit.

 

[WPM]

HERE YOU GO

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD)​

• In Against Heresies, Book 5, he lays out a comprehensive chiliastic theology, drawing directly from Revelation 20.
• Describes Satan being bound, the resurrected saints reigning with Christ, and a restored earth.
• Also references Papias, who passed on similar teachings.

Lactantius (c. 250–325 AD)​

• In The Divine Institutes, Book 7, he gives a detailed account of a future millennium, with Christ reigning on earth, Satan bound, and peace restored.

ZING! SNACK ON THAT!

Where in Against Heresies, Book 5?

 

[shepherdsword]

Hebrews 1:1-3, 2:8-10 says, “God … Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under [Gr. anupotaktos or not made subject, unsubjected] him. But now we see not yet all things put under [Gr. hupotassō or subordinated or submitted] him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. This is a present ongoing reality. It is a current arrangement. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.

Premillennialists highlight the phrase “now we see not yet all things put under him.” They present it as evidence that Christ is not ruling at the moment. But they (1) fail to interpret what this is actually saying and they (2) fail to quote all the surrounding evidence as context. This phrase is telling us: there are still enemies to be born and subjugated. There are still leaders and kingdoms to fall. The process of subjugation is ongoing to the second coming.

The sovereign king reigns majestic, supreme and unchallenged in His power and authority, ruling over all creation (seen and unseen) and over all things (good and evil). Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn’t. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is definitely not out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, as God sees fit.

But now we see not yet all things put under is the crust of the biscuit . Once all things are subjugated by him he delivers the kingdom to the Father:

1 Co 15:24-25 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, until he hath put all enemies under his feet.