The Doctrines of Grace

[PinSeeker]

From above (this is important, too, but a separate thing)...

The Baptists whose altar call I answered certainly had a literal understanding of that fire. If you took a poll, how many on this board would express belief in eternal conscious torment?

Well I don't know, but no matter, really; just a brief perusal of the posts in various threads on this board regarding all kinds of subjects can be... frightening. <smile>

I take it you do not hold to a literal fire and eternal torment?

Hmmmm... Well, I do, but only if you mean literal, regarding the fire, in the same sense as Deuteronomy 4:24 ("For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God") and 9:3 ("Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the Lord your God"), and Hebrews 12:29 ("...for our God is a consuming fire"). It's... well, He is, of course, very literal; and it's a very literal thing, but not a literal flame; the fire, Lambano, is God's judgment, and it will be finally rendered by Jesus once and for all at the final Judgment, depicted on Revelation 20:11-15 (also Matthew 25:31-46). In Revelation 20, this "lake of fire" is in some sense a contradictory description, as a lake does not really consist of flames, but of water. What we are really meant to "see" (or understand) in (or take from) this shocking image is a total immersion of the unrepentant in God's judgment, and, yes, for all eternity. We can see this also in Jesus's parable in Luke 16, where the rich man, having died, is "in anguish in this flame" (v.24)...

Which leads me to the "eternal torment," which is not an active tormenting... or physical torture, of course (!)... by anyone, much less God, but an internal anguish, synonymous with "their worm (that) does not die and the fire (that) is not quenched" of Mark 9:48. So yes, it does not die and is not quenched... it is indeed eternal... for all eternity. Which... in a different sense as what I said above, of course... is frightening, but exponentially so.

Grace and peace to you, Lambano.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Agreed.
He did intend to build a church. I mean a brick and mortar church AND an invisible church too.

The Church is a visible entity (Matt. 5:14), but not brick and mortar.

I know. But this is how I am.
I said: I wish I could be different.
I have a few born again Catholic friends (everyone here is Catholic) and they accept what the church teaches.
This has to be accepted...it's the new dogma I have a problem with.
Oh well.

Such as?

I know Bread. But this is not what we're discussing here.
But I'd like to stop.

I was responding to your comment:
“So if those in heaven could see us and hear us...you think they're having much joy up there?”

Right. It had to be developed.
BUT it started with the writings in the NT.

Again – I was responding to YOUR claim that developed doctrines like Confession and Purgatory and praying to saints in Heaven weren’t present in the Early Church.
This is not accurate.

Purgatory:
Clement of Alexandria, Abercius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine

Confession:
The Didache, Barnabas, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Cyprian, John Chrysostom

Praying to the Saints:
Origen, Pectorius, Cyprian, Hilary of Poitiers, Ephraem of Syria, Liturgy of St. Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Ambrose of Milan, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Jerome

By change I mean doctrinal change.
I don't care to discuss this any further..it's damaging.

Unlike virtually every Protestant denomination – the Catholic Church has never changed a single doctrine.

It's the truth....and the gates of hell will not prevail.
And they haven't.
It's truly a miracle.

Again – I was responding to your comment:
“I agree. The CC is the original church. I just so wish it had remained as in the 1st and 2nd century.”

No. I knew you meant Rev. 5:8 it was MY typo.

Oh, okay.

Either way - Rev. 5:8 is absolutely about intercession.

Not going there unless you really want to.
But I tried when I had just come back here and I couldn't explain to you the difference,
so no use trying again.

No -it’s just that you don’t want to accept the fact that Augustine didn’t even have the Authority to change or even define a doctrine. He could only change his mind about how to explain it.

Can't change my brain.

It’s not your brain – but your heart that has to change . . .

Amen to that.
He's appointed many cardinals...we'll see what happens.

And, thank God that HE is the one who is in control . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

The Church is a visible entity (Matt. 5:14), but not brick and mortar.

The church is ALSO brick and mortar.
What do YOU mean by visible entity?
I used to teach (and may go back to ) kids that there are 2 churches....
one is invisible...The Communion of Saints
and one is visible...
I'd hit on the wall to make them remember.
5th to 7th graders.
The 7th graders were already little atheists...at least 70% of them if not more.

Such as?

Such as the new dogma:
The Assumption
But also prayers to the dead.
Purgatory is nowhere to be found.
Can't think of anything else right now...I'm tired.

I was responding to your comment:
“So if those in heaven could see us and hear us...you think they're having much joy up there?”

Again – I was responding to YOUR claim that developed doctrines like Confession and Purgatory and praying to saints in Heaven weren’t present in the Early Church.
This is not accurate.

Confession was present but we don't know the form.
It certainly wasn't the form that is practiced today.
Sins were spoken loudly in church in the beginning.
You must know this....there were changes made.
It became more private so as not to cause problems.
So priests began to hear confession.
Confession and Mass right now are the primary roles of a priest.
But they also realize not many are going to confession anymore.

Purgatory:
Clement of Alexandria, Abercius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine

Confession:
The Didache, Barnabas, Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Cyprian, John Chrysostom

I'm not going to check each and every one.
Certainly not Augustine.
However, I AM familiar with The Didache and I can tell you that it states that we are
to confess our sins (as indeed we are), but it does not state the form.
What you should be posting is John 20:23

Praying to the Saints:
Origen, Pectorius, Cyprian, Hilary of Poitiers, Ephraem of Syria, Liturgy of St. Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, Ambrose of Milan, John Chrysostom, Augustine, Jerome

Unlike virtually every Protestant denomination – the Catholic Church has never changed a single doctrine.

You're right.
Once it was made a doctrine or dogma.

Again – I was responding to your comment:
“I agree. The CC is the original church. I just so wish it had remained as in the 1st and 2nd century.”

Oh, okay.

Either way - Rev. 5:8 is absolutely about intercession.

No -it’s just that you don’t want to accept the fact that Augustine didn’t even have the Authority to change or even define a doctrine. He could only change his mind about how to explain it.

No Bread. Do a little study on this.
I'll go over quick one more time just for you:

Original Sin always existed.
All the ECFs spoke of it.
They spoke of it as a stain on our soul.
Infants were always baptized because the parents wanted them to have this blessing.
Of course, the parents were real Christians back then --- they even died for their faith.
One of the Fathers said: Let us not deprive them .... can't remember the rest.

What Augustine did was to change OS from a stain to IMPUTED GUILT.
So he taught that babies had to be baptized immediately because this imputed guilt would cause them
to go to hell if they died because nothing impure could enter into heaven...Rev 20?

As you know the CC does indeed teach that we are each responsible for our own sin.
This does not reconcile with what Augustine taught...he taught that a baby was responsible for Adam's sin.

Now...what's happening today.
The church is still teaching that baptism is for removal of OS...so Augustine's teaching WAS accepted by the church.
BUT it is also teaching that if a baby dies,,,,he is given to the mercy of God.
I forget where this is in the CCC but I'm sure you know where.

And that's all I'll say on this....it's history..simple history.

It’s not your brain – but your heart that has to change . . .

My heart's OK.
God will be merciful.

And, thank God that HE is the one who is in control . . .

Amen to that.

 

[PinSeeker]

So much posting by Calvinists of Romans 9.

Well, 9 through 11, when speaking of God's purpose of election, specifically, because that's the clearest and most complete exposition of it in the Bible. But it's supported throughout the Bible, and that's why I've quoted so extensively. Even in those specific chapters, Paul quotes and refers to numerous Old Testament passages (not the New, because it didn't exist at the time of his writing of Romans). through the Pentateuch and the Prophets. Even in the Gospels, in quotes from Jesus Himself we see it, particularly so through the Gospel of John.

It's all they've got.

The whole Bible? Yes. Sure. That's all any of us have. But... that's all we need. As the old hymn goes, "What more can He say than to you He has said? To you, who for refuge, to Jesus have fled! <smile> "How Firm a Foundation," one of my favorites...

And when I try to post re this...they disappear.

Not I... obviously. But it does get tiring having to speak to the same old objections time and time again... And, goodness gracious, you're the one who "disappeared." LOL!

I even will post written articles and YouTube links showing that ONLY the reformed interpret Romans 9 as they do.

Yes, they ("the Reformed") meet it head on and accept it for what it is, rather than dancing around it as dispensationalists do.

It's good for those reading along who may be interested...but I never hear from the reformed again.

<chuckles> Heard me chuckling didn't you? <smile> I haven't gone anywhere. You never hear from them because... well, you do, you just pretend not to. <smile>

Or, they might link something from MacArthur maybe.

LOL! Oh, there's plenty more where that came from... But he's a good one... LOL! And one is all it should take, really... <smile>

Funny....they link a Calvinist .... guess they like to prove that only Calvinists believe Romans 9 as they do!

Well, as opposed to Arminians, and that just about covers all orthodox Christians... LOL! But to that, all the links you provided were Arminians. I mean yeah, that's how it goes.

But look....Romans 9:30-33 kills any belief they may have of the understanding of earlier verses:

<eye roll>

Israel’s Unbelief​

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

It's clearly stated WHAT causes one's salvation:
FAITH

Well, faith doesn't cause it, but rather the vehicle through which God makes it happen. God does this, by first willing it and then working it in the person by the power of the Holy Spirit... in being born again of the Spirit:

• "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved... through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:4-8).
• And Peter says the same thing: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5).

BECAUSE THEY PERSUED IT NOT BY FAITH....

Ethnic Jews did, yes. But they were not of God's Israel, not elect. Ahhhh, some were, but most were not. Instead of posting it again, I'm just going to direct you here to my post to @Lambano above, Post #940. Ah, you probably won't read it, you'll probably just ignore it; so be it. But particularly relevant here is what I said above about the idea of a "lesser" and a "greater" from the Old Testament to the New... there is a lesser and greater David: David himself the former, and Jesus the latter... David was a type/shadow of the true King of Israel to come, Jesus... there is a lesser and a greater Israel, the ethnic Israelites of old being the lesser Israel and all of God's true Israel ~ all the Jews of God's Israel, regardless of ethnicity, But this partial hardening is being removed, along with bring the fullness of the Gentile believers in, and in this way, all of God's Israel will be saved. This is Romans 11:25-26.

It's FAITH that saves a person...

Faith is the vehicle through which each person is saved. It's God's assurance, and conviction by the Spirit (Hebrews 11:1). And it's a gift of the Spirit, to which both Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12 ~ along with Ephesians 2 and 1 Peter 1, cited above ~ attest.

NOT God's predestinating a person to life or damnation.

Right. That's hyper-Calvinism. Which is far beyond what Calvin actually taught and wrote and true Calvinism, such that it's a terrible distortion of it. Neither Calvin nor historical Calvinists believe such a thing.

So easy to see when those Calvinist colored glasses are removed from the eyes.

How do you know if you've never tried them? <smile> And, when you have Arminian blinders on, you "see"... a lot... of... "things"... <smile> The same old things, over and over and over again...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The church is ALSO brick and mortar.

Actually, no.

A Church can be a building – and there are many.
THE Church us the Body of Christ - and He is the Head (Col. 1:18).

What do YOU mean by visible entity?

I used to teach (and may go back to ) kids that there are 2 churches....
one is invisible...The Communion of Saints
and one is visible...
I'd hit on the wall to make them remember.
5th to 7th graders.
The 7th graders were already little atheists...at least 70% of them if not more.

The Church (Body of Christ) is a visible entity.

Matt. 5:14-15
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

The Communions of Saints includes:
The Church Militant – those here on earth.
The Church Suffering – those undergoing final purification (purgatory).
The Church Triumphant – those in Heaven.

Such as the new dogma:
The Assumption

The earliest writings from the ECFs on the Assumption are from the late 3rd century. This is hardly “new”.

But also prayers to the dead.

This isn’t a “new” Dogma. Asking the saints in Heaven for prayer goes all the way back to the 3rd century.

Purgatory is nowhere to be found.
Can't think of anything else right now...I'm tired.

This is false

First of all - 2 Macc. 12:42-46 speaks to praying for the dead.

- Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

- We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

This can’t be Heaven because there is suffering.
This can’t be Hell because the person is eventually saved.
This is talking about a THIRD reality – that of final purification (Purgatory).

- Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.

- Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

Confession was present but we don't know the form.
It certainly wasn't the form that is practiced today.
Sins were spoken loudly in church in the beginning.
You must know this....there were changes made.
It became more private so as not to cause problems.
So priests began to hear confession.
Confession and Mass right now are the primary roles of a priest.

Not exactly.

It was ALWAYS the job of the priest to absolve sins – even when sins were confessed publicly.

But they also realize not many are going to confession anymore.

Again – not true.

At my parish, if you don’t get there early, you won’t get in. Our pastor had to schedule confessions for six days a week.

I'm not going to check each and every one.
Certainly not Augustine.
However, I AM familiar with The Didache and I can tell you that it states that we are
to confess our sins (as indeed we are), but it does not state the form.
What you should be posting is John 20:23

I didn’t post John 20-21-23 because you asked about what the ECFs taught – NOT what the Bible does.

No Bread. Do a little study on this.
I'll go over quick one more time just for you:

Original Sin always existed.
All the ECFs spoke of it.
They spoke of it as a stain on our soul.
Infants were always baptized because the parents wanted them to have this blessing.
Of course, the parents were real Christians back then --- they even died for their faith.
One of the Fathers said: Let us not deprive them .... can't remember the rest.

What Augustine did was to change OS from a stain to IMPUTED GUILT.
So he taught that babies had to be baptized immediately because this imputed guilt would cause them
to go to hell if they died because nothing impure could enter into heaven...Rev 20?

As you know the CC does indeed teach that we are each responsible for our own sin.
This does not reconcile with what Augustine taught...he taught that a baby was responsible for Adam's sin.

Now...what's happening today.
The church is still teaching that baptism is for removal of OS...so Augustine's teaching WAS accepted by the church.
BUT it is also teaching that if a baby dies,,,,he is given to the mercy of God.
I forget where this is in the CCC but I'm sure you know where.
And that's all I'll say on this....it's history..simple history.

Once again – you are wrong.

ONE more time- neither Augustine nor ANY other Bishop has the authority to “change” a doctrine. He offered another perspective on the efficacy of Baptism. Besides – a doctrine cannot change.

Secondly – The Bible teaches that Baptism is for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39). We are told that Baptism “…now saves you” (1 Pet. 3:21).

Finally - Infant Baptism was never just a “blessing”.
200 years before Augustine, we see that Irenaeus was teaching that infants are sanctified by Baptism.
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, SANCTIFYING infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

100 years before Augustine – Origen states that Infant Baptism is an Apostolic tradition for the washing away of Original Sin.
Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

My heart's OK.
God will be merciful.

God IS merciful. He is also a Judge who will demand an account from us.
We won’t be able to say to Him, “Well, I know all of the evidence was there, but I just didn’t buy into it.”

 

[PinSeeker]

Y'all are really... um... colorful... and bold... <smile> And... well... <smile>

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, no.

A Church can be a building – and there are many.
THE Church us the Body of Christ - and He is the Head (Col. 1:18).

The Church (Body of Christ) is a visible entity.

Ok Bread.
Here's how it's taught in the CC
Church = Body of Christ
church = Brick and Mortar

I'm afraid THE as you put it will not do.
Because I could use THE in both cases:

I'm going to the church down the block.
Could you teach me about the Church?

It's the capitalized C that makes the difference.

Matt. 5:14-15
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.

The Communions of Saints includes:
The Church Militant – those here on earth.
The Church Suffering – those undergoing final purification (purgatory).
The Church Triumphant – those in Heaven.

Yes. I know Bread.
I agree...except for the Church Suffering.
No purgatory.
But we'll have to agree to disagree.

The earliest writings from the ECFs on the Assumption are from the late 3rd century. This is hardly “new”.

It's pretty new and I just can't accept it.
Elijah was also assumed into heaven...he didn't die.
It was believe that God would not allow Jesus' mother's body to decay.
The body of one of the children at Lourdes did not decay...
I guess it's the Assumption I have a problem with.

I will say that even a priest friend of mine who does not believe purgatory is found in scripture
(sorry about that but he's a theologian and I know you won't be happy but I could tell you some stuff you wouldn't like to hear)
DOES believe in the Assumption.
So, there you have it.

This isn’t a “new” Dogma. Asking the saints in Heaven for prayer goes all the way back to the 3rd century.

This is false

First of all - 2 Macc. 12:42-46 speaks to praying for the dead.

I just will not debate this any further.
It's not a salvation issue.
I'm not absolutely obstinate...I do keep asking about these matters.
(to God).

- Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

- We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Neither verse is about purgatory. I just can't get into this...
I'll only say that 1 Cor 3:12-15 and staring at verse 6, I believe,,,
is about Apostles and those that come after them building on the House of God.
It's about THEIR WORK and not about purgatory.

This can’t be Heaven because there is suffering.
This can’t be Hell because the person is eventually saved.
This is talking about a THIRD reality – that of final purification (Purgatory).

- Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.

- Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

Not exactly.

It was ALWAYS the job of the priest to absolve sins – even when sins were confessed publicly.

Again – not true.

At my parish, if you don’t get there early, you won’t get in. Our pastor had to schedule confessions for six days a week.

You have a very good Parish Bread.
You should be happy.
The rest of the world's laity is dwindling.

I didn’t post John 20-21-23 because you asked about what the ECFs taught – NOT what the Bible does.

Oh. But Scripture is the authority.
I said I use the ECFs when there SEEMS to be a conflict because persons on these forums sometimes post scripture to prove points and I do like to check with Ignatius, for instance. Sola Scriptura just does not function well.

Once again – you are wrong.

ONE more time- neither Augustine nor ANY other Bishop has the authority to “change” a doctrine. He offered another perspective on the efficacy of Baptism. Besides – a doctrine cannot change.

Secondly – The Bible teaches that Baptism is for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39). We are told that Baptism “…now saves you” (1 Pet. 3:21).

Finally - Infant Baptism was never just a “blessing”.

So which sin does an infant have?

200 years before Augustine, we see that Irenaeus was teaching that infants are sanctified by Baptism.
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, SANCTIFYING infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

100 years before Augustine – Origen states that Infant Baptism is an Apostolic tradition for the washing away of Original Sin.
Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

God IS merciful. He is also a Judge who will demand an account from us.
We won’t be able to say to Him, “Well, I know all of the evidence was there, but I just didn’t buy into it.”

I posted a lot of writings back when this first came up.
I'm just not doing this again.
Just tell me what sin a child is born with.
Thanks.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ok Bread.
Here's how it's taught in the CC
Church = Body of Christ
church = Brick and Mortar

I'm afraid THE as you put it will not do.
Because I could use THE in both cases:

I'm going to the church down the block.
Could you teach me about the Church?

It's the capitalized C that makes the difference.

Yes – I am aware of the difference.
However – YOU stated:
“The church is ALSO brick and mortar.”

There is only ONE entity known as THE Church.
There are many buildings called A church.

Yes. I know Bread.
I agree...except for the Church Suffering.
No purgatory.
But we'll have to agree to disagree.

I provided much Scripture to the contrary.
Instead of living in simple denial – how about a refutation?

It's pretty new and I just can't accept it.
Elijah was also assumed into heaven...he didn't die.
It was believe that God would not allow Jesus' mother's body to decay.
The body of one of the children at Lourdes did not decay...
I guess it's the Assumption I have a problem with.

I will say that even a priest friend of mine who does not believe purgatory is found in scripture
(sorry about that but he's a theologian and I know you won't be happy but I could tell you some stuff you wouldn't like to hear)
DOES believe in the Assumption.
So, there you have it.

Then he doesn’t know his Bible. I provided about a half-dozen Scriptural examples.

I’ve known many “Theologians” who are wrong. Every Protestant Theologian is wrong about several things.
Again – denial isn’t a valid argument . . .

I just will not debate this any further.
It's not a salvation issue.
I'm not absolutely obstinate...I do keep asking about these matters.
(to God).

God communicates with us through others – through His Church (Matt. 28:19-20).

He doesn’t come down to speak to us and verbally teach us.
You’re not going to be able to tell Him: “I wouldn’t to believe some of your teachings – and I refused to be taught about them.”

Neither verse is about purgatory. I just can't get into this...
I'll only say that 1 Cor 3:12-15 and staring at verse 6, I believe,,,
is about Apostles and those that come after them building on the House of God.
It's about THEIR WORK and not about purgatory.

You “just can’t get into this” because you don’t have an argument.
Just more denial . . .

If this isn’t about Final Purification (Purgatory) - then, explain why “The Day” is being talked about.
This term is always associated with the Day of Judgement in Scripture (Matt. 12:36, Matt. 24:36, Acts 17:31, Rom. 2:5, Rom. 2:16, 2 Pet. 3:10-13, Jude 1:6).

Explain why this passages speaks explicitly about salvation – but only as through fire and suffering. Again – denial is NOT a valid argument . . .

You have a very good Parish Bread.
You should be happy.
The rest of the world's laity is dwindling.

Wrong.

There are 1.39 Billion Catholics worldwide. That is an increase of 14 million from the previous year. However – we doo have a priest shortage.

Oh. But Scripture is the authority.
I said I use the ECFs when there SEEMS to be a conflict because persons on these forums sometimes post scripture to prove points and I do like to check with Ignatius, for instance. Sola Scriptura just does not function well.

Wrong again.

First of all - the claim to reject Sola Scriptura.
However, you debate like one . ..

Scripture is AN Authority – not THE Authority. Jesus gave supreme earthly Authority to His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
Paul summarizes this in 2 Thessalonians:

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Here, he puts ORAL teaching from the Church to be on par with Scripture.

So which sin does an infant have?

Like the rest of us – an infant needs Baptism to remove sin (Acts 2:38-39) - and to enter the New Covenant (Mark 16:16). This is done on the faith of the parents.

In the OT, infants had to be circumcised to enter the Covenant (Gen. 17:10-11). This was done on the faith of the parents.

I posted a lot of writings back when this first came up.
I'm just not doing this again.
Just tell me what sin a child is born with.
Thanks.

Every person is born with Original Sin. We ALL have the proclivity toward sin that the Church calls, “Concupiscence”.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes – I am aware of the difference.
However – YOU stated:
“The church is ALSO brick and mortar.”

There is only ONE entity known as THE Church.
There are many buildings called A church.

wow. OK.

I provided much Scripture to the contrary.
Instead of living in simple denial – how about a refutation?

Difficult to refute something that is not there.

Then he doesn’t know his Bible. I provided about a half-dozen Scriptural examples.

That's pretty funny Bread.
That's all I'll say.

I’ve known many “Theologians” who are wrong. Every Protestant Theologian is wrong about several things.
Again – denial isn’t a valid argument . . .

This is true.

God communicates with us through others – through His Church (Matt. 28:19-20).

He doesn’t come down to speak to us and verbally teach us.
You’re not going to be able to tell Him: “I wouldn’t to believe some of your teachings – and I refused to be taught about them.”

I have to agree that this is right.

You “just can’t get into this” because you don’t have an argument.
Just more denial . . .

Right.

If this isn’t about Final Purification (Purgatory) - then, explain why “The Day” is being talked about.
This term is always associated with the Day of Judgement in Scripture (Matt. 12:36, Matt. 24:36, Acts 17:31, Rom. 2:5, Rom. 2:16, 2 Pet. 3:10-13, Jude 1:6).

THE DAY.
THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.
JUDGMENT.
HEAVEN OR HELL.

Explain why this passages speaks explicitly about salvation – but only as through fire and suffering. Again – denial is NOT a valid argument . . .

Bread....I just won't do it. Because you just like to argue.
Read it for yourself a few times and figure out what it's talking about.
It mentions Paul and Apollo.
It mentions about building the house of God.
It mentions the FOUNDATION that others will be building upon
WITH HAY , WOOD or GOLD , SILVER.

Wrong.

There are 1.39 Billion Catholics worldwide. That is an increase of 14 million from the previous year. However – we doo have a priest shortage.

Yeah. I was discussing this just tonight at bible study.
We can't figure out how to get these atheist kids to be A LITTLE interested in their faith.
A solution might be to just ALLOW those that are TRULY desirous of making their confirmation the PRIVILEDGE of attending
catechism class.

Wrong again.

First of all - the claim to reject Sola Scriptura.
However, you debate like one . ..

I'm a rather complicated person.
How do you think I'm SOLA SCRIPTURE when I mention the ECFs in every few posts of mine?

Scripture is AN Authority – not THE Authority. Jesus gave supreme earthly Authority to His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
Paul summarizes this in 2 Thessalonians:

2 Thess. 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

yadda yadda Bread.
I know all this stuff.

Here, he puts ORAL teaching from the Church to be on par with Scripture.

Like the rest of us – an infant needs Baptism to remove sin (Acts 2:38-39) - and to enter the New Covenant (Mark 16:16). This is done on the faith of the parents.

I asked you.
And you did not reply.
WHAT SIN DID AN INFANT COMMIT?

Do I need to post all those verses that state that we are each responsible for our own sins?

In the OT, infants had to be circumcised to enter the Covenant (Gen. 17:10-11). This was done on the faith of the parents.

Every person is born with Original Sin. We ALL have the proclivity toward sin that the Church calls, “Concupiscence”.

I know.
And babies were first baptized in the early church ON THE FAITH OF THE PARENTS.
Not like today that the parents aren't even believers.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants.

OOps... No personal fault.
Exactly what I've been saying.

It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice,

Agreed......

but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it,

Agreed.....

subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin -

Agreed.....

an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Thanks Bread.
You did my work for me.
The CCC agrees with what I've been saying about OS.
Gee. I didn't teach from the CCC for nothing!
(but I did dislike using it for teaching).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Difficult to refute something that is not there.

The it should be very easy to refute.
The fact is that ALL of the verses I presented point to a final purification (purgatory).

That's pretty funny Bread.
That's all I'll say.

That’s all you’ll say because you can’t refute my claim.
It’s easy to deny something. But, providing evidence to the contrary is a whole different ballgame.

Secondly, if your priest friend rejects the idea of Purgatory – then he is in heresy.
Final Purification of the Elect is a dogmatic position of the Catholic Church.

I have to agree that this is right.

Yet, you persist in you denials in the fact of Scriptural evidence.

THE DAY.
THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.
JUDGMENT.
HEAVEN OR HELL.

And Final Purification, as I have amply shown.

Bread....I just won't do it. Because you just like to argue.
Read it for yourself a few times and figure out what it's talking about.
It mentions Paul and Apollo.
It mentions about building the house of God.
It mentions the FOUNDATION that others will be building upon
WITH HAY , WOOD or GOLD , SILVER.

First of all – you won’t do it because you don’t have a valid argument.
Secondly - I don’t “like” to argue – I just don’t like to ignore the truth.

As for what these verses mean – it’s NOT about a brick and mortar structure.
Verses 1-4 are about Paul warning against factions - aka, “denominations”. He waens the people not to fall into the trap of following the leader - instead of following the Church.

Verses 5-9 are about the fact that Paul, Apollos and the rest are building ONE Church and working toward the SAME goal..

Verses 10-15 are about that goal and what the consequences are for our life in the way we choose to serve – or NOT to serve the Lord.

This correlates perfectly with the Old Testament. In the OT - God is often represented as the Great Refiner. A refiner uses fire, taking raw materials and burns away the impurities to bring out the gold and silver and other precious metals
(Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27-30, Ezek. 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10)

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.

yadda yadda Bread.
I know all this stuff.

Yes – but knowing and believing are two different things . . .

I asked you.
And you did not reply.
WHAT SIN DID AN INFANT COMMIT?

Do I need to post all those verses that state that we are each responsible for our own sins?

And I will repeat my answer:
Every person is born with Original Sin. We ALL have the proclivity toward sin that the Church calls, “Concupiscence”.

I know.
And babies were first baptized in the early church ON THE FAITH OF THE PARENTS.
Not like today that the parents aren't even believers.

And those parents will have to answer to God.
The Baptism is still efficacious.

Do you think that every Jew in the OT was faithful? Were their circumcised children NOT part of the Covenant?
If that’s what you think– then you have to read the OT . . .

Thanks Bread.
You did my work for me.
The CCC agrees with what I've been saying about OS.
Gee. I didn't teach from the CCC for nothing!
(but I did dislike using it for teaching).

I know you’re get mad at me for saying this - but . . .
Please don’t tell me that you’re teaching Catholic children.

It’s not only disingenuous of you to be teaching students about religious views that you disagree with – it’s dangerous for them. If you actually teach them to deny the things that you deny – that is leading them astray.

 

[Behold]

The it should be very easy to refute.
The fact is that ALL of the verses I presented point to a final purification (purgatory).

The cult of mary has authored or accepted many false ideas, concepts and teachings, and then claim them as their own.

one of them is this "purgatory" nonsense.

 

[GodsGrace]

The it should be very easy to refute.
The fact is that ALL of the verses I presented point to a final purification (purgatory).

That’s all you’ll say because you can’t refute my claim.
It’s easy to deny something. But, providing evidence to the contrary is a whole different ballgame.

Secondly, if your priest friend rejects the idea of Purgatory – then he is in heresy.
Final Purification of the Elect is a dogmatic position of the Catholic Church.

Yet, you persist in you denials in the fact of Scriptural evidence.

And Final Purification, as I have amply shown.

First of all – you won’t do it because you don’t have a valid argument.
Secondly - I don’t “like” to argue – I just don’t like to ignore the truth.

As for what these verses mean – it’s NOT about a brick and mortar structure.
Verses 1-4 are about Paul warning against factions - aka, “denominations”. He waens the people not to fall into the trap of following the leader - instead of following the Church.

Verses 5-9 are about the fact that Paul, Apollos and the rest are building ONE Church and working toward the SAME goal..

Verses 10-15 are about that goal and what the consequences are for our life in the way we choose to serve – or NOT to serve the Lord.

This correlates perfectly with the Old Testament. In the OT - God is often represented as the Great Refiner. A refiner uses fire, taking raw materials and burns away the impurities to bring out the gold and silver and other precious metals
(Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27-30, Ezek. 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10)

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven.

Yes – but knowing and believing are two different things . . .

And I will repeat my answer:
Every person is born with Original Sin. We ALL have the proclivity toward sin that the Church calls, “Concupiscence”.

And those parents will have to answer to God.
The Baptism is still efficacious.

Do you think that every Jew in the OT was faithful? Were their circumcised children NOT part of the Covenant?
If that’s what you think– then you have to read the OT . . .

I know you’re get mad at me for saying this - but . . .
Please don’t tell me that you’re teaching Catholic children.

It’s not only disingenuous of you to be teaching students about religious views that you disagree with – it’s dangerous for them. If you actually teach them to deny the things that you deny – that is leading them astray.

I'll only answer to the last comment.
Go figure....I taught catechism now for about 7 years off and on due to personal reasons.
Go figure....they get taught what the CC teaches. I even spend 2 minutes on purgatory.
Guess what...they fear purgatory more than hell. I won't bother to explain why...maybe you know, maybe not.
We got a new priest this year. He doesn't know me very well...but the other ones know my position, and guess what...
it didn't matter!
Because....
You don't want to hear the because.
These children need to be taught to love and follow Jesus
NOT to pray to saints or to worry about going to purgatory.
They need to know that their behavior should reflect their love for God.
I taught one boy what repents means after the other kids had left class because he was
so worried about his sin and being lost.
Guess what...he said he finally understood.
I think we got ourselves a little convert there.

But you're too busy protecting your brick and mortar church instead
of preaching the gospel or posting about salvation and the grace of God and the love
He has for us.

Too busy trying to show off how much you know about the Catholic Doctrine/Dogma.
Guess what Bread...the churches are emptying. The church is at a loss as to know what to do.
YOU are not helping any.
Change your ways and become useful to your church....

Then again, I shudder to think how you'd be at teaching kids...
and I truly doubt any of the priests I know well would want YOU teaching children their faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

The cult of mary has authored or accepted many false ideas, concepts and teachings, and then claim them as their own.

one of them is this "purgatory" nonsense.

Most priests believe in purgatory.
Some do not.
There is more schism in the CC than @BreadOfLife realizes.

And I refuse to post any support for my position because he's obstinate in his beliefs.
The CC, just like Calvinists, killed those they believed to be heretical.
Most were burned alive or killed in other horrible ways.
All churches have gone astray...but at least we should acknowledge this
and preach JESUS and not some denomination or other.

Bread would be horrified to know what's going on in his church....small c.
This new Deacon here (one year less of theology than a priest) told one of the ladies at bible study
that she should stop reading about saints and start reading the bible.
The CC made many mistakes and it's probably too late to do anything about it.

I'm ranting....

 

[Behold]

Most priests believe in purgatory.
Some do not.
There is more schism in the CC than @BreadOfLife realizes.

And I refuse to post any support for my position because he's obstinate in his beliefs.
The CC, just like Calvinists, killed those they believed to be heretical.
Most were burned alive or killed in other horrible ways.
All churches have gone astray...but at least we should acknowledge this
and preach JESUS and not some denomination or other.

Bread would be horrified to know what's going on in his church....small c.
This new Deacon here (one year less of theology than a priest) told one of the ladies at bible study
that she should stop reading about saints and start reading the bible.
The CC made many mistakes and it's probably too late to do anything about it.

I'm ranting....

I can't really relate to a denomination, as im not one.

My Church is Messianic, and its neither denominational or non-denom.

Paul never created a denomination....>>He only created "local assemblies" where believers could meet, and love each other and celebrate the Lord of Glory in praise and worship.

Later, in came the "no im the authority"....>>"no, im the authority".... "no, im the authority and i'll burn you at the stake unless you agree"...and so, you have the CC and the Dark ages, and now you have 40,000 denominations in the world, as well.

Answer?

A.) There are no denominations in Heaven........

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't really relate to a denomination, as im not one.

My Church is Messianic, and its neither denominational or non-denom.

Paul never created a denomination....>>He only created "local assemblies" where believers could meet, and love each other and celebrate the Lord of Glory in praise and worship.

Later, in came the "no im the authority"....>>"no, im the authority".... "no, im the authority and i'll burn you at the stake unless you agree"...and so, you have the CC and the Dark ages, and now you have 40,000 denominations in the world, as well.

Answer?

A.) There are no denominations in Heaven........

Ditto for me.
Except I'm not Messianice...
I'm a Gentile and am non-denominational.

 

[Behold]

There is only ONE entity known as THE Church.

And that "church" is every "Temple of the Holy Spirit", and that means that the Church is the "body of Christ" and that is simply each and every born again believer.

 

[Behold]

The it should be very easy to refute.

 

[GodsGrace]

This Pope is a disgrace and many many Catholics know this and are waiting for him to pass on.
However, he has ordained so many Cardinals and Bishops that the fear is that another Francis will be coming along
after him. He's in the hospital right now with severe bronchitis - it might be pneumonia for all we know.

There is a wall around Vatican City in case some reader doesn't know this.
In December of 2024 STRICTER laws were passed for those who try to climb over the wall.
STRICTER....not abolished.

Guess what's good for the goose is not good for the gander...or however that saying goes.

This Pope is a communist through and through.
His concern is always for the wrong population.
Those poor criminals that are being deported have DIGNITY that we're supposed to respect.

I suppose those that they killed, and some in horrible ways, had no dignity so we should not consider them...
but instead those that killed them.

This goes against everything the CC teaches:
GOD
FAMILY
OTHERS

A man is required to care for his FAMILY FIRST.
He does NOT owe to every other human what he owes to his family...
that would be impossible to even attempt to do.

This Pope has allowed the blessing of homosexual couples.
Yes...Bread might strongly disagree...but the bull says COUPLES.

About 10 years ago he allowed remarried couples to receive communion.
This was not allowed in the CC until HE changed the teaching...and yet Bread will say that
a Catholic teaching cannot be changed.

He had the horrendous Pacha Mama worship INSIDE the Vatican walls back about 6 years ago.
One Italian was so outraged that he took the statue of the Pacha Mama from St. Peter's Basilica and threw it into
the Tiber River about 3 blocks away.

It's a disgrace.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And I agree with him.
The Pope is out of lie, here.

The cult of mary has authored or accepted many false ideas, concepts and teachings, and then claim them as their own.

one of them is this "purgatory" nonsense.

And yet, NONE of you has been able to provide a refutation for the Biblical I provided evidence FOR it.

As I always say – denial is NOT a valid argument . . .

And that "church" is every "Temple of the Holy Spirit", and that means that the Church is the "body of Christ" and that is simply each and every born again believer.

I agree.

ALL Christians are incorporated into the Body at Baptism (Mark 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21).
Unfortunately, MANY of you have separated yourselves from the Body . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I'll only answer to the last comment.
Go figure....I taught catechism now for about 7 years off and on due to personal reasons.
Go figure....they get taught what the CC teaches. I even spend 2 minutes on purgatory.
Guess what...they fear purgatory more than hell. I won't bother to explain why...maybe you know, maybe not.
We got a new priest this year. He doesn't know me very well...but the other ones know my position, and guess what...
it didn't matter!
Because....
You don't want to hear the because.
These children need to be taught to love and follow Jesus
NOT to pray to saints or to worry about going to purgatory.
They need to know that their behavior should reflect their love for God.
I taught one boy what repents means after the other kids had left class because he was
so worried about his sin and being lost.
Guess what...he said he finally understood.
I think we got ourselves a little convert there.

WOW - where to begin??

First of all – you only respond to things that are about you and NOT about Scripture and doctrine. Maybe it’s because you can’t offer Biblically-sound rebuttals . . .

Secondly – if your students fear Purgatory more than Hell – it sounds like they’re getting some pretty BAD catechesis. And for a priest who doesn’t care about who is teaching the children in his parish- it speaks VOLUMES about his theological laziness and apathy.

But you're too busy protecting your brick and mortar church instead
of preaching the gospel or posting about salvation and the grace of God and the love
He has for us.

Too busy trying to show off how much you know about the Catholic Doctrine/Dogma.
Guess what Bread...the churches are emptying. The church is at a loss as to know what to do.
YOU are not helping any.
Change your ways and become useful to your church....

Then again, I shudder to think how you'd be at teaching kids...
and I truly doubt any of the priests I know well would want YOU teaching children their faith.

And there you go again with your “brick-and-mortar” lies. Not ONCE have I said anything that even remotely resembles that abomination.
Do you feel nothing when you violated God’s Commandment against bearing FALSE witness (Exod. 20:16)??

And, even though I give you statistical evidence that the Catholic Churh isn’t “dwindling” – you persist in your lie that is IS. Is there ever a situation where you actually tell the truth?:

A Biblical warning for people who love lies and dishonesty:
Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters AND ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.