The Doctrines of Grace

[PinSeeker]

From above...

1. Paul exhorts us to walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 5. Yes. Absolutely.

This is a command denoting free will and HOW one will be saved.

Not a command, an exhortation. Again, no need to argue (although you will, of course), but it's because of, GodsGrace ~ as a result of ~ not "how." The only way it can be construed as a "how" is if we state that in the same sense as what he says elsewhere: "How then shall we live?"

2. Paul states that IN THIS WAY one will not carry out the desires of the flesh.

Sure. Walking in the Spirit is exclusionary of walking in the flesh. But because we are still sinners, we are still prone to sin and thus walking in the flesh, even though we don't want to do that and try not to do that. Thus the exhortation. I mean, this is the Christian walk. The struggle is real. Sure. But one great day we will have true rest. So, even now, we can live in light that certainty.

It DOES NOT state that God predestinated every action of man from the beginning as calvinism wrongly teaches.

You're right; no, it does not teach that, nor does Calvinism. It does not, GodsGrace. No matter how many times you say that... and no matter how many times you quote John Calvin and wrongly attribute it to him... it does ~ he did ~ we do ~ not. This stubborn assertion of yours is absolutely false.

3. It is THE FLESH that is in opposition to the Spirit. Again...this denotes free will.

Okay, sure, yes. But because the flesh is in opposition to the Spirit, if a person is still in the flesh ~ at enmity with God and thus living in sin; dead to God, actually, and not born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ ~ he or she will remain in the flesh and in opposition to the Spirit, which also denotes free will.

No scripture states that God predestinated the actions of man,,,

Absolutely true. Yet still, God "(made) out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use" (Romans 9:21), and did so, "desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (Romans 9:22-24).

as calvinism wrongly teaches.

Neither Calvin nor Calvinists taught or teach that "God predestinated the actions of man."

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

I post scripture Pin.

As do I.

You post your opinions.

As do you.

Please post my entire posts to you.

Hmmm... well in this very post of yours, you cut out comments of mine from my previous post. You said (and I quote ~ although you left it within my quote) "edited: unnecessary comments from you, as usual and to save space." I wouldn't call your comments "unnecessary," but maybe not necessary beyond what you have said, usually in the context of repitition, but is it not okay with you if I do the same? I mean, number one, that's very hypocritical, and two, I don't really care. <smile>

I DO NOT make conflicting statements...

You don't mean to, no. But you do, really; the implications of what you say conflict with what you have said previously quite a bit.

Continued below...

 

[GodsGrace]

In Fullerism, it's both. It may not appeal to you, but it will Appeal to some...

It's necessary to Preach the Gospel, because we're Justified through Faith Alone; we're not Justified by Unconditional Election...

This is the biggest problem when it comes to Calvinists and Non Calvinists; People Conflate Election with Justification, or Justification with Election. We Commit the Logical Fallacy of Making Category Mistakes. For many, they Categorize Justification with Election; making them the same Category. They are not; they are Spelled differently and have different meanings. I would say that if God Elected someone, but the Person was never Justified through Faith; the Election was Moot...

Wouldn't you say that if someone got Saved, then God Elected him, but the Person Lost his Salvation; God's Election was Moot?

The NT does speak of the elect....
the Elect in the OT are the Jewish people whom God elected to be revealed through them.
In the NT the elect are those, and certainly also those that are saved...they are God's elect.

The dividing point comes about in HOW they became elect.
Calvinism teaches that God chose specific, individual persons to be saved from before the beginning of time.
The NT simply does not teach this....

This, if true, would make God to be an unjust God.
The reason that God is just is because He gives to each person what that person deserves....
Did they believe in God?
Did they accept His Son, our Savior as their redeemer?
Did they obey God to the best of their ability?

For God to randomly choose who will be saved and predestinate all the rest of humanity to hell through no fault of their own...
makes for an unjust God.

Since man seeks justice....this is an attribute that we've received from a Just God.

 

[PinSeeker]

From above...

...however I will repeat:ONE IS BORN AGAIN BECAUSE HE HAS CHOSEN SALVATION.

And I will repeat: One freely chooses the Lord's salvation in the Person of Christ ~ which is of the Lord, not of man ~ because He has been born again of the Spirit, and that is not because of ~ does not depend on, in Paul's words in Romans 9:16 ~ the will or running of man, but because of ~ depends on, in Paul's words in that same verse, Romans 9:16 ~ the will of God in giving His mercy and compassion ~ which is grace... unmerited favor.

And this is also what John says, that we Christians are "children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13)

And Peter says regarding "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," that "(a)ccording to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5). And, lest you say that Peter is somehow saying this is because he or she has chosen salvation, the only thing Peter says of us is ~ in the very next verse, verse 6, "in this (we) rejoice."

Again, none of this is contrary to the fact that ~ and Calvin does not dispute, nor does any historical Calvinist ~ that man makes a free will choice for salvation. But the simple Scriptural fact is, it does not depend on man's choice, but on God's, and His choosing from all eternity, which is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 1, that "He..." (God, of course) "...chose us in Him..." (Christ) "...before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him..." (the Father). "In love He..." (the Father, of course) "...predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.".

Yes. Man is ABLE to choose to be saved because God would want that all men be saved...

Almost!!! <smile> Man is, yes, able to choose to be saved ~ and certain ones, His elect, will ~ because God, in His mercy and compassion and grace ~ which again is unmerited favor ~ has, "before the foundation of the world ...predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will"... and then in our own time, "according to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

...and so God has given us the conditions by which we can be saved.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


To be saved we must:
1. Believe in the Son.
2. Obey Him.

Agreed, but this is not the primary cause of salvation... and this is regarding our ultimate salvation, what we are being saved to now, because of our having been saved/born again of the Spirit. If we believe in the Son, it is because God has revealed this to us, just like Peter (as Jesus says to him in Matthew 16). And because we have the Holy Spirit at work in us, we can "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2).

No talk AT ALL of being predestined by God for either Salvation or damnation...

Right.

, which is what calvinism wrongly teaches.

Calvinism does not teach that. At all.

Pin...I post scripture.

LOL!!! And opinions regarding such. Well, me, too. LOL!

All Christians EXCEPT THE REFORMED understand scripture exactly as I do.

Many ~ and not just "except the reformed" ~ do, yes.

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

From above...

Paul said FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
This is a doctrine made up by Calvinists.

Here is what PAUL stated:

Galatians 2:16
16Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ

Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works,

Romans 3:28
28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


As you can clearly see...we are saved by faith.

Ah, well, through faith, but it is the work of God, by His Spirit, in us; "this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works," Paul says and you yourself quoted and emphasized. You're exactly right in saying faith is not a work, but you ~ and all Arminians ~ how ever inadvertently... plainly make it out to be such. None of that Pul says in Ephesians 2:8 is of man, but of God. And this is in direct correlation to what Jesus says even to Peter in Matthew 16, when Peter confesses Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God: "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:15-17).

And if it is by faith...it cannot be by works, as plainly stated by Paul.

Exactly. Now, if you only would really fully embrace that... <smile> Note that I didn't say you don't believe Paul, or don't have every intention to do so, but... <smile>

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Ah the end... LOL! From above...

Thank you for confirming what Calvinism teaches. That God CHOOSES who will be saved and who will be damned.

And, "thank you" ~ in quotes ~ for falsely putting words in my mouth (and Calvin's, and all historical Calvinists). You shouldn't do so, but, like I said, you're certainly your own person.

If you want to show that God calls only the elect... I'm afraid you'll have to use scripture just like I do.

Oh, so none of the Gospels, or Romans 9, or Ephesians 1 or 2, or 1 Peter 1, or 1 John 1 or 4, are Scripture. Hmmmmm.... Well I would certainly disagree with that. And I think you would, too, but yet...

Your incorrect opinions...

...are not incorrect, at least regarding what we're discussing. And my opinions regarding your opinions are not incorrect, either. You on the other hand... <smile> This disagreement has been going on since the first century... probably before that... and will continue until Jesus returns. And, like I said, that's okay. At least we're all striving for the same thing, right?

do not interest anyone on this thread...

No, just you, and other Arminians like you. But then again, if you are not interested ~ which can be either in a positive or negative way ~ then why are you... still... here...? LOL!

Use scripture please.

Again...

I'm here to discuss theology.

Yeah, that's why we're all here. But some... well, I'll just... leave that there. <smile>

And, I would like to repeat, that calvinists are really bad at supporting their point of view.

Fair enough. I would say the same of Arminians. <smile>

And it IS a point of view...

Yes... both are.

because calvinism is heretical.

Nope, and neither is Arminianism. But one is surely wrong, and... <smile>

Heretical means that it teaches unorthodox christianity...

Agreed. But anything orthodox~ what is commonly understood about a certain thing ~ can be wrong...

IOW...they believe a type of Christianity THAT NO OTHER DENOMINATION BELIEVES.

Calvinism is not a denomination. <smile> There are several different Christian denominations that are Calvinistic.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

To avoid the Conflict in Theology, we're to use the Hermeneutic, "All Scripture is Good for Doctrine". The Bible supports your side and it supports Calvin's side, so I believe both sides because of who is speaking to us through the Bible. I'm a true Sola Scrpturist...

The thing about you choosing your side, is that it's a Case of Special Pleading; making a Plea for only one side of the Story. Doing this authenticates the Hyper Calvinist's position; because they also make a Plea only for their side. When both sides are Guilty of Committing the Logical Fallacy of Special Pleading, the Debate lasts forever; because both sides have Biblical Truths on their side...

The best Hermeneutic is Sola Scriptura; the Bible is the Highest Spiritual Authority which we use to settle Spiritual Disputes. There is no one who does good, no not One; and Believing the Gospel is something Good we do. 'Classical' Arminians exist because they believe Grace has come to All people; but they still believe in Total Depravity. They believe that before Grace appears, no one does Good, but after Grace appears, we can do Good and believe the Gospel. I dare say that all Evangelicals believe Grace precedes Faith. If Grace precedes Faith, no on can Faith without Grace; right?

This is excellent, Hey You. Yes, this is what I've been saying, that both are man's free will and God's sovereignty are absolutely true, and they have to be held together but at a tension, so to speak... and there has to be a resolution of the two to each other.

Now, I would disagree with your statement that Arminians (of any ilk) "believe in Total Depravity." Although maybe what you're saying is that they do, but they don't realize it, and that I would agree with. But they reject it ~ kind of in the same manner as Psalm 10, where the unbeliever says there is no God, but then acknowledges Him... Is that what you mean? But, yeah, if understood properly, the concept of total depravity is repulsive to them, really in the same manner as what Paul rhetorically asks the Romans, who is anyone to answer back to God? We cannot ask, why has he made us like this? And then, as he finally says ~ quoting from the Old Testament, of course:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ​

'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?' ​

'Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid?'​

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever." (Romans 11:33-36)​

But really it's because they don't understand it... or just don't want to, because they see it as repulsive... they see it as robbing them of themselves, which is ridiculous, but yeah, I get it. But really, it should be seen as just how amazing God's grace really is... just how great His love is, in a real sense.

Grace and peace to you, Hey You!

NOTE: It's a little awkward, calling you by your moniker... <smile> Like, "Hey, Hey You, um..." or "Grace and peace to you, Hey You!..." <smile>

 

[GodsGrace]

From above...


Galatians 5. Yes. Absolutely.


Not a command, an exhortation. Again, no need to argue (although you will, of course), but it's because of, GodsGrace ~ as a result of ~ not "how." The only way it can be construed as a "how" is if we state that in the same sense as what he says elsewhere: "How then shall we live?"


Sure. Walking in the Spirit is exclusionary of walking in the flesh. But because we are still sinners, we are still prone to sin and thus walking in the flesh, even though we don't want to do that and try not to do that. Thus the exhortation. I mean, this is the Christian walk. The struggle is real. Sure. But one great day we will have true rest. So, even now, we can live in light that certainty.


You're right; no, it does not teach that, nor does Calvinism. It does not, GodsGrace. No matter how many times you say that... and no matter how many times you quote John Calvin and wrongly attribute it to him... it does ~ he did ~ we do ~ not. This stubborn assertion of yours is absolutely false.

No matter how many times I quote John Calvin it is wrongly attributing this teaching to him???

So, IOW, John Calvin wrote beliefs he did not believe in?

John Calvin wrote the following....you could look it up for yourself:
THIS is the teaching of Calvinism...


Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3


I concede more--that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5


By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Book 3
Chapter 21
Paragraph 5

Okay, sure, yes. But because the flesh is in opposition to the Spirit, if a person is still in the flesh ~ at enmity with God and thus living in sin; dead to God, actually, and not born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ ~ he or she will remain in the flesh and in opposition to the Spirit, which also denotes free will.

No free will in Calvinism Pin.
Start being honest.
If God elected you for salvation...
WHERE is your free will?

Absolutely true. Yet still, God "(made) out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use" (Romans 9:21), and did so, "desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, enduring with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (Romans 9:22-24).

That's all you've got and it's nothing.
Even Romans 9 is interpreted differently by the Reformed.

Neither Calvin nor Calvinists taught or teach that "God predestinated the actions of man."

Really?
See above.

Not only do you misrepresent God but you are not honest about it either.
You'll answer to God one day.
James 3:1
1Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Again, if you can't stomach Calvinism...
Don't be a Calvinist.

Romans 9 for every other denomination: For those that are interested in learning about Romans 9:

 

[GodsGrace]

As do I.


As do you.


Hmmm... well in this very post of yours, you cut out comments of mine from my previous post. You said (and I quote ~ although you left it within my quote) "edited: unnecessary comments from you, as usual and to save space." I wouldn't call your comments "unnecessary," but maybe not necessary beyond what you have said, usually in the context of repitition, but is it not okay with you if I do the same? I mean, number one, that's very hypocritical, and two, I don't really care. <smile>


You don't mean to, no. But you do, really; the implications of what you say conflict with what you have said previously quite a bit.

Continued below...

No further comment.

 

[GodsGrace]

From above...


And I will repeat: One freely chooses the Lord's salvation in the Person of Christ ~ which is of the Lord, not of man ~ because He has been born again of the Spirit, and that is not because of ~ does not depend on, in Paul's words in Romans 9:16 ~ the will or running of man, but because of ~ depends on, in Paul's words in that same verse, Romans 9:16 ~ the will of God in giving His mercy and compassion ~ which is grace... unmerited favor.

And this is also what John says, that we Christians are "children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13)

And Peter says regarding "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," that "(a)ccording to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5). And, lest you say that Peter is somehow saying this is because he or she has chosen salvation, the only thing Peter says of us is ~ in the very next verse, verse 6, "in this (we) rejoice."

Again, none of this is contrary to the fact that ~ and Calvin does not dispute, nor does any historical Calvinist ~ that man makes a free will choice for salvation. But the simple Scriptural fact is, it does not depend on man's choice, but on God's, and His choosing from all eternity, which is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 1, that "He..." (God, of course) "...chose us in Him..." (Christ) "...before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him..." (the Father). "In love He..." (the Father, of course) "...predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.".


Almost!!! <smile> Man is, yes, able to choose to be saved ~ and certain ones, His elect, will ~ because God, in His mercy and compassion and grace ~ which again is unmerited favor ~ has, "before the foundation of the world ...predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will"... and then in our own time, "according to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."


Agreed, but this is not the primary cause of salvation... and this is regarding our ultimate salvation, what we are being saved to now, because of our having been saved/born again of the Spirit. If we believe in the Son, it is because God has revealed this to us, just like Peter (as Jesus says to him in Matthew 16). And because we have the Holy Spirit at work in us, we can "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2).


Right.


Calvinism does not teach that. At all.


LOL!!! And opinions regarding such. Well, me, too. LOL!


Many ~ and not just "except the reformed" ~ do, yes.

Continued below...

Pin...
If you want to be a Calvinist...
You're going to have to study Calvinism.

Or
As I've said..come on over to our side...there's plenty of room.
Seems like you'd like this side better than the side you're currently on.

 

[GodsGrace]

From above...


Ah, well, through faith, but it is the work of God, by His Spirit, in us; "this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works," Paul says and you yourself quoted and emphasized. You're exactly right in saying faith is not a work, but you ~ and all Arminians ~ how ever inadvertently... plainly make it out to be such. None of that Pul says in Ephesians 2:8 is of man, but of God. And this is in direct correlation to what Jesus says even to Peter in Matthew 16, when Peter confesses Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God: "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:15-17).


Exactly. Now, if you only would really fully embrace that... <smile> Note that I didn't say you don't believe Paul, or don't have every intention to do so, but... <smile>

Continued below...

You are one mixed up fella....
And very good at putting words into my mouth.

I say what I mean Pin...
I don't need YOU to explain what I state.

Which is all biblical BTW,,,and accepted by all Christians
EXCEPT THE REFORMED...who even make up their own definitions for words..

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah the end... LOL! From above...


And, "thank you" ~ in quotes ~ for falsely putting words in my mouth (and Calvin's, and all historical Calvinists). You shouldn't do so, but, like I said, you're certainly your own person.


Oh, so none of the Gospels, or Romans 9, or Ephesians 1 or 2, or 1 Peter 1, or 1 John 1 or 4, are Scripture. Hmmmmm.... Well I would certainly disagree with that. And I think you would, too, but yet...


...are not incorrect, at least regarding what we're discussing. And my opinions regarding your opinions are not incorrect, either. You on the other hand... <smile> This disagreement has been going on since the first century... probably before that... and will continue until Jesus returns. And, like I said, that's okay. At least we're all striving for the same thing, right?


No, just you, and other Arminians like you. But then again, if you are not interested ~ which can be either in a positive or negative way ~ then why are you... still... here...? LOL!


Again...


Yeah, that's why we're all here. But some... well, I'll just... leave that there. <smile>


Fair enough. I would say the same of Arminians. <smile>


Yes... both are.


Nope, and neither is Arminianism. But one is surely wrong, and... <smile>


Agreed. But anything orthodox~ what is commonly understood about a certain thing ~ can be wrong...


Calvinism is not a denomination. <smile> There are several different Christian denominations that are Calvinistic.

Grace and peace to you.

I've posted Calvin's teachings many times.
Because YOU don't trust what's in black and white does not mean it's not so.
Your dishonesty is horrendous.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's one of the things we've been discussing, yes, but I think we all agree that it is by the Holy Spirit. If you disagree, then that puts you far outside... mainstream Christianity, at least on that one thing.


No, just on its face, this statement is not correct.


And yet, as Jesus said to Nicodemus (and I pointed out), "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." No one denies that our belief is very, very important, but irrefutably, we Christians believe in the Lord Jesus and are saved because we have been born again of the Spirit.


It's an exhortation. No need to argue about that... although you will, I'm sure... but it's not a command, and not even remotely in the sense of God's/Jesus's commandments.


As am I.


I don't care; it matters not. I think you do, but still it matters not. We all have many, many influences in our life, past and present, that we are not even aware of.


I believe what he taught was correct, yes? Follow him, no.


Absolutely.


Absolutely not. If you want to say that, then, in the same sense, Arminians ~ whether they realize it or not or even know who he was ~ follow Arminius. But that's just as silly a statement as "Calvinists follow Calvin."


Well, you could... but refuse to, I guess... listen to what Jesus says in John 6, 8, and 10 (respectively):
I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me... No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
If God were your Father, you would love Me... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.
I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish... My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Our belief, GodsGrace, is obviously not causative of our being born again of God by the Holy Spirit, but the result of it.


Right, and why, in light of what this same John who related to us Jesus's words there in John 3:18 says, "to all who did receive Him, Who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13) and "We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Continued...

According to Calvinism:

I don't believe because God has not predestinated me to believe.

NOT what the NT teaches.

And you say we're saved by the Holy Spirit?
NO.
We're saved by faith.

FAITH IS THE INSTRUMENT by which we're saved.

NOT God predestinating us for salvation from the beginning of time.

This is my last post to you.

Maybe one day, a calvinist will come along that could actually defend his position.
Till now....no such person is around.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t understand this lack of faith on your part.

You can believe that –
- God simply SPOKE - and the entire universe leapt into existence . . .
- God created a man - with biological complexities that are impossible foe man to produce . . .
- God gave Moses the power to part the sea . . .

Sure. God set up a system Bread.
And the system did not include speaking to dead persons...
I just don't find this in the bible.
OR
In the ECFs...there seems to be agreement only in the beginning and then it changes...so no go.

HOWEVER – God allowing those in Heaven to hear the petitions if those on earth is mpossible for Hom? REALLY?

“Finite” means that it has a limit or an end.

Thanks. I so need definitions of words.

So if those in heaven could see us and hear us...
you think they're having much joy up there?

And if GOD wants to grant those in Heaven the ability to hear ALL prayers at the ` time – that’s up to HIM – not YOU . . .

This is all a cop-out for a real believer . . .

The idea that you guys don’t believe that God has the power to give the saints in Heab the ability to hear earthly petitions for prayer just blows me away. You can believe He did it for John – but He’s NOT able to do it for others??

He also gave John the ability to forgive sins.
I can't do that.

The doctrine of the Trinity developed, as it is only implicitly taught in Scripture.
The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is another.
And guess what?? The Canon of Scripture developed over time as well.

The trinity is in the NT and the OT.
The hypostatic union is Jesus...it only had to be explained.
The canon was developed over time....
All good.

ALL of these things were declared by God’s only earthly Authority – His Church.

I agree. The CC is the original church.
I just so wish it had remained as in the 1st and 2nd century.

Here are some Protestant doctrines that developed “over time” – several of which aren’t even implicitly taught in Scripture:
- Sola Scriptura
- Sola Fide
- A Pre-Trib “Rapture”
- Limited Atonement
- Imputed righteousness
- Eternal Security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”)
- Accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior

Agreed on all except maybe the last one.
I don't know what you mean by it...
Jesus is a personal Lord and Savior because we know Him personally.
At least, I feel like I do.
Maybe you understand this in a different way.

Let me reiterate:
SOLA SCRIPTURA DOES NOT WORK.
SOLA FIDE IS NOT SCRIPTURAL
NO SUCH THING AS A RAPTURE
ATONEMENT WAS MADE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD
RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT IMPUTED - BUT THIS COULD BE DEBATED A LITTLE - DEPENDS WHAT A PERSON MEANS.
NO SUCH THING AS ETERNAL SECURITY --- WE'RE SECURE FOR AS LONG AS WE REMAIN IN CHIRST AND OBEY HIM.

NOT true. It perfectly correlates with Rev. 8:5.

I just don't see this in Rev 8:5
Here's what Dr. Scott Hahn comments in the Ignatius Study bible:
Rev. 8:5 THREW IT ON THE EARTH: AN ACT OF DIVINE JUDGMENT ON THE EARTH. THE GESTURE RECALLS EZEKIEL 10:2 WHERE A HEAVENLY MESSENGER SCATTERS BURNING COALS OVER JERUSALEM.
It does mention the prayers of the saints but he makes no comment regarding this.
Who ARE the HOLY PEOPLE OF GOD?

Every quote I listed was from and Early Church Father.
You can’t just cherry-pick which ones YOU want to read.

Like I said,,,if I don't find agreement, I look elsewhere.

Besides – NOT every single doctrine was written about by the 3 Fathers you mentioned.

They're my favorite,,,,and those to about 200 and even a bit beyond.
I say the pre-nicene Fathers.

Funny that you should say that you will ONLY use their belief system IF they agree with each other. And I’m NOT surprised that you would only use the words of Origen and not the others I listed.

No time Bread...this has to be looked up online...it's not all in my head.
But Origen did seem to disasgree with himself by what we found.

Origen was an adherent of "apokatastasis: - the belief that ALL sols – even the damned – will eventually be reconciled to God. Although many of his writings are useful – he is not officially recognized as an ECF because of his heretical views.

Actually, I don't like him much.
Tertullian is another one.
But my most un-favorate of all is Augustine.
Thanks to him we have Calvinists these days.
Plus, as I've said, he changed the meaning of Original Sin, but I don't care to get into that again.

As for the other ECF’s – they AGREE that asking those in Heaven to pray for us us a good thing . . .

I wish I could be Catholic Bread.
Some priests tell me it's OK if I don't believe in every dogma...
but I just don't think it's fair.
And I'm waiting for Francis to disappear...
He's a disaster and HE is schismatic...not Traditionals.

 

[Hey You!]

This is excellent, Hey You. Yes, this is what I've been saying, that both are man's free will and God's sovereignty are absolutely true, and they have to be held together but at a tension, so to speak... and there has to be a resolution of the two to each other.

Now, I would disagree with your statement that Arminians (of any ilk) "believe in Total Depravity." Although maybe what you're saying is that they do, but they don't realize it, and that I would agree with. But they reject it ~ kind of in the same manner as Psalm 10, where the unbeliever says there is no God, but then acknowledges Him... Is that what you mean? But, yeah, if understood properly, the concept of total depravity is repulsive to them, really in the same manner as what Paul rhetorically asks the Romans, who is anyone to answer back to God? We cannot ask, why has he made us like this? And then, as he finally says ~ quoting from the Old Testament, of course:

"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ​

'For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?' ​

'Or who has given a gift to Him that He might be repaid?'​

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever." (Romans 11:33-36)​

But really it's because they don't understand it... or just don't want to, because they see it as repulsive... they see it as robbing them of themselves, which is ridiculous, but yeah, I get it. But really, it should be seen as just how amazing God's grace really is... just how great His love is, in a real sense.

Grace and peace to you, Hey You!

NOTE: It's a little awkward, calling you by your moniker... <smile> Like, "Hey, Hey You, um..." or "Grace and peace to you, Hey You!..." <smile>

When I say Arminians believe in Total Depravity, I mean 'Classical Arminians' believe in Total Depravity; IE Arminus Arminians. Arminius believed in Total Depravity. Many people who think the are Arminians, are Probably Provisionists...

Arminius said Calvin is the best Theologian, after the Apostles...

 

[GodsGrace]

When I say Arminians believe in Total Depravity, I mean 'Classical Arminians' believe in Total Depravity; IE Arminus Arminians. Arm8nius believed in Total Depravity. Many people who think the are Arminians, are Probably Provisionists...

Arminius said Calvin is the best Theologian, after the Apostles...

Hey...the only title I need is CHRISTIAN.
It should mean something,,,right?

 

[PinSeeker]

No matter how many times I quote John Calvin it is wrongly attributing this teaching to him???

It's not the quoting him that's the problem, GodsGrace, it's your wrongheaded "gleanings" ~ understandings ~ of what he said. So, yes.

So, IOW, John Calvin wrote beliefs he did not believe in?

Your understandings of what he wrote are the problem. No matter how many times you directly quote him, you continue missing the point(s) entirely, making them into something other than they are. That's the problem.

No free will in Calvinism Pin.

Wrong, Gosh. Wrong.

If God elected you for salvation... WHERE is your free will?

Ah, properly asked, if your election by God did not depend on your free will ~ as Paul in fact says ~ then where is not your free will? In fact, it is acknowledged, albeit implicitly.

That's all you've got and it's nothing.

Now, where is that in the Bible? Is that in like in the Pentateuch somewhere? <smile>

Even Romans 9 is interpreted differently by the Reformed.

It's interpreted as it is.

Really?

Yes. All you assertions here about what Calvin and Calvinists believe are wrong.

Not only do you misrepresent God but you are not honest about it either.

Pish.

You'll answer to God one day.

We all will. Some of us will have an Advocate, though... <smile>

James 3:1
1Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Absolutely.

Again, if you can't stomach Calvinism...

LOL! Arminianism, actually. Well, actually, I can "stomach it," because I'm very patient... and empathetic.. and even sympathetic. But-tuhhhh... yeah. <smile>

Don't be a Calvinist.

Ohhhh, way too late for that. Don't be an Arminian. <smile>

Romans 9 for every other denomination: For those that are interested in learning about Romans 9...

The great thing about the internet is that you can find anything on it... especially you-tube.

The terrible thing about the internet and you-tube, however, is that... you can find anything on it. <smile>

No further comment.

Ohhhhh, if only that were true...

You're going to have to study Calvinism.

LOL! Because you're a Christian, GodsGrace, whether you want to be a Calvinist or not, you should study Calvinism. At least then you'd know what you disagree so vehemently with. But, as I said, I guess ignorance is bliss... Kind of like unbelievers out there, to whom we all say, "Well, you may still remain not a Christian, but you owe it to yourself to look into it and learn about it and then make an informed decision."

As I've said..come on over to our side...there's plenty of room.

Nah, I was there once... <smile> I was...

You are one mixed up fella....

On some things, probably so, but not the things we're discussing. And I wouldn't call you "mixed up," either, but surely misinformed on these things... and maybe stubborn and intractible... which, we can all be from time to time.

And very good at putting words into my mouth.

I do no such thing; that's all you.

I say what I mean Pin...

You absolutely do, Gosh, but the implications of what you do in fact say are ~ in the cases we've been talking about ~ contrary to Scripture... and this is an acknowledgment of your exact words, and not putting words into your mouth in any way. Only you are the one that says "Calvin/Calvinists/"the reformed" teach this, and "Calvin/Calvinists/"the reformed" teach that" and are wrong in saying that. But concerning "Arminius/Arminians/"the not-reformed", I have not done that one single, solitary time.

I don't need YOU to explain what I state.

It's not about what you state, it's the implications of what you state. And we all need that from time to time.

Which is all biblical BTW,,,and accepted by all Christians

Nope. One day there will be no disagreement, but for now, it's okay. We all agree on the essentials; there is no disagreement on those.

I've posted Calvin's teachings many times.

Yes, and your implications from them are all wrong, because your understandings of them are wrong. Mostly anyway.

Your dishonesty is horrendous.

I'm a little tired of you calling me a liar, but so be it; I can't do anything about that, except to know that my identity is in Christ, and rest in that.

According to Calvinism:

Ah, here we go again...

I don't believe because God has not predestinated me to believe.

<eye roll> False demagoguery.

And you say we're saved by the Holy Spirit?

Well, if you include Him in the triune Godhead as I and all other Christians do, then yes. He certainly does His part, both initially and through the course of the rest of our lives. So, yes.

We're saved by faith.

Through faith, which is the gift of God, the Father's assurance and the Spirit's conviction (Hebrews 11:1) so that no one may boast.

FAITH IS THE INSTRUMENT by which we're saved.

Right, but we are not the giver of this faith. This assurance has to come from outside of us and be worked in us by the Spirit. If this assurance is in and of ourselves, it is an empty assurance... no real assurance at all.

NOT God predestinating us for salvation from the beginning of time.

Well, right, actually before, from all eternity... <smile> Who redeems our lives from the pit? GodsGrace? Do you do that for yourself?

This is my last post to you.

Fantastic.

Maybe one day, a calvinist will come along that could actually defend his position..

... and you will, unlike here, actually listen, and realize a few things... <smile>

Till now....no such person is around.

I mean... one can talk himself or herself into pretty much anything... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

When I say Arminians believe in Total Depravity, I mean 'Classical Arminians' believe in Total Depravity...

Fair enough. And GodsGrace probably does, too... if she'd only understand it for what it is, but she's been very strident in repudiating it.

Many people who think they are Arminians, are probably Provisionists....

That may be; the clearest differences between Provisionist doctrine and classical Reformed theology are seen in the concepts of total depravity and limited atonement, which is exactly what we've been talking about, really. But she has also been very clear in repudiating the concepts of unconditional election, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, too... but, yeah, perhaps that's just because, judging from her mischaracterizations of them, she's so misinformed about what those concepts really are. I mean...

<smile> Loved "Seinfeld"... LOL!

Not as much as "Cheers," though...

LOL!!!!

Arminius said Calvin is the best Theologian, after the Apostles...

Yes, it was just the five objections that he had. I mean, they were big objections, with far-reaching implications, but still only five...

Hey...the only title I need is CHRISTIAN.
It should mean something,,,right?

And it does, for us all. Yes, though our identification far above all else is with Christ, we all identify with all kinds of things that range widely in importance.

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not the quoting him that's the problem, GodsGrace, it's your wrongheaded "gleanings" ~ understandings ~ of what he said. So, yes.


Your understandings of what he wrote are the problem. No matter how many times you directly quote him, you continue missing the point(s) entirely, making them into something other than they are. That's the problem.


Wrong, Gosh. Wrong.


Ah, properly asked, if your election by God did not depend on your free will ~ as Paul in fact says ~ then where is not your free will? In fact, it is acknowledged, albeit implicitly.


Now, where is that in the Bible? Is that in like in the Pentateuch somewhere? <smile>


It's interpreted as it is.


Yes. All you assertions here about what Calvin and Calvinists believe are wrong.


Pish.


We all will. Some of us will have an Advocate, though... <smile>


Absolutely.


LOL! Arminianism, actually. Well, actually, I can "stomach it," because I'm very patient... and empathetic.. and even sympathetic. But-tuhhhh... yeah. <smile>


Ohhhh, way too late for that. Don't be an Arminian. <smile>


The great thing about the internet is that you can find anything on it... especially you-tube.

The terrible thing about the internet and you-tube, however, is that... you can find anything on it. <smile>


Ohhhhh, if only that were true...


LOL! Because you're a Christian, GodsGrace, whether you want to be a Calvinist or not, you should study Calvinism. At least then you'd know what you disagree so vehemently with. But, as I said, I guess ignorance is bliss... Kind of like unbelievers out there, to whom we all say, "Well, you may still remain not a Christian, but you owe it to yourself to look into it and learn about it and then make an informed decision."


Nah, I was there once... <smile> I was...


On some things, probably so, but not the things we're discussing. And I wouldn't call you "mixed up," either, but surely misinformed on these things... and maybe stubborn and intractible... which, we can all be from time to time.


I do no such thing; that's all you.


You absolutely do, Gosh, but the implications of what you do in fact say are ~ in the cases we've been talking about ~ contrary to Scripture... and this is an acknowledgment of your exact words, and not putting words into your mouth in any way. Only you are the one that says "Calvin/Calvinists/"the reformed" teach this, and "Calvin/Calvinists/"the reformed" teach that" and are wrong in saying that. But concerning "Arminius/Arminians/"the not-reformed", I have not done that one single, solitary time.


It's not about what you state, it's the implications of what you state. And we all need that from time to time.


Nope. One day there will be no disagreement, but for now, it's okay. We all agree on the essentials; there is no disagreement on those.


Yes, and your implications from them are all wrong, because your understandings of them are wrong. Mostly anyway.


I'm a little tired of you calling me a liar, but so be it; I can't do anything about that, except to know that my identity is in Christ, and rest in that.


Ah, here we go again...


<eye roll> False demagoguery.


Well, if you include Him in the triune Godhead as I and all other Christians do, then yes. He certainly does His part, both initially and through the course of the rest of our lives. So, yes.


Through faith, which is the gift of God, the Father's assurance and the Spirit's conviction (Hebrews 11:1) so that no one may boast.


Right, but we are not the giver of this faith. This assurance has to come from outside of us and be worked in us by the Spirit. If this assurance is in and of ourselves, it is an empty assurance... no real assurance at all.


Well, right, actually before, from all eternity... <smile> Who redeems our lives from the pit? GodsGrace? Do you do that for yourself?


Fantastic.


... and you will, unlike here, actually listen, and realize a few things... <smile>


I mean... one can talk himself or herself into pretty much anything... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

No further comments Pin.
Anyway, I basically post for those reading along.
I would have stopped posting to you PAGES ago.
Basically because you tell me what I believe....does not make for good conversation.

Also, you don't seem to understand English,,,
either the written word by John Calvin himself..
or the spoken word on YouTube.

So that's it for me.
I'm sure it has helped others to keep away from heretical reformed/calvinist theology.

 

[Hey You!]

That may be; the clearest differences between Provisionist doctrine and classical Reformed theology are seen in the concepts of total depravity and limited atonement, which is exactly what we've been talking about, really.

When I deal with Non Calvinists, I keep it Fundamental; do they believe Grace precedes Faith, or do they believe Faith Precedes Grace?

When you try to get them to say what they are really teaching, that Faith Precedes Grace; they will not say it because they know it sounds terrible. It's why I Coined the Term "Prevenient Faith" in opposition to Prevenient Grace. I challenged them to say it for years, and one day one Provisionist climbed out on a limb and said that Faith goes before Grace comes. An Arminian won't do that...

No, Grace goes before Faith comes. I liken it to Horse Racing. The Horses are in the Gates waiting for the Gates to open. The Horses are stomping and Snorting, ready to go; but they can't until the Gates open. The Gates are like that Grace which appears and opens before Faith; then the Horses run the race as to win the prize. Now I know you're a Calvinist and will say the Horses are dead; I'm not arguing against that. But when dealing with people who believe in Prevenient Grace, use it against them. If they believe that Grace appears before Faith appears, they MUST needs to believe they need God's Grace in order to Believe in God...

That's Total Inability due to Depravity, which is the Doctrine of Total Depravity...