The Doctrines of Grace

[PinSeeker]

Andrew Fuller used to be a Hyper Calvinist, who began to believe Christ Atoned for All.

Became a universalist...?

He is the Father of Sunday School, and a father of Missions.

Interesting. Why?

Some look at him as a 4.5 or 4.75 Point Calvinist. The Reformed Baptist Tom Ascol considers Fuller to be a 5-Point Calvinist.

Well not if he was a universalist... But yeah... interesting.

Fuller's most noteworthy Work is, "A Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation"...

Calvinism Lite

Synopsis?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You gotta love it when folk don't like what you say but respond with "Right" and "Okay"...

All I'm saying is ~ and I think this is pretty clear ~ I don't completely understand what you're trying to say. And I think it's a pretty good thing... graceful, really... that I'm not putting words into your mouth... which... happens a lot around here... <smile>

I will have to say more later...

Yes. Sure.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Andrew Fuller used to be a Hyper Calvinist, who began to believe Christ Atoned for All. He is the Father of Sunday School, and a father of Missions. Some look at him as a 4.5 or 4.75 Point Calvinist. The Reformed Baptist Tom Ascol considers Fuller to be a 5-Point Calvinist. Fuller's most noteworthy Work is, "A Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation"...

Calvinism Lite

Good morning HY
I don't believer there's such a belief as soft calvinism.
It's still calvinism.

Every single belief of reformed/calvinist theology is in direct opposition to mainline Christianiy
and what the New Testament teaches.

If a calvinist tell me that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek God....
and I post at least 10 verses or more that either asks us to seek God or demands that we seek God...
then we have a severe conflict in the bible and, as we both know, if the bible has conflict we'll have to agree that
it is not to be trusted.

Since the bible is the World of God and we CAN TRUST it...
then we have to believe that the theology that is causing the conflict is incorrect.

In this case, it would be calvinism.

This is true for each and every one of the 5 points of TULIP...
which I debunked in my posts no. 844 and 845 with many verses showing that we
are to trust scripture and not a man called Calvin.

 

[Ritajanice]

Proverbs 3:5: Trust in the Lord​

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Psalm 37:4-6: Commit Your Way to the Lord​

Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act. He will bring forth your righteousness as the light, and your justice as the noonday.

Romans 8:28: All Things Work Together For Good​

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Psalm 9:10: You Have Not Forsaken​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 28:7: The Lord is My Strength​

The Lord is my strength and my shield; in him my heart trusts, and I am helped; my heart exults, and with my song I give thanks to him.

Proverbs 3:6: Acknowledge Him​

In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

Joshua 1:9: Be Strong and Courageous​

Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be frightened, and do not be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.

Romans 15:13: Joy and Peace in Believing​

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.

Jeremiah 29:11: I Know The Plans For You​

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

Psalm 46:10: Be Still and Know​

“Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!”

 

[GodsGrace]

As I have explained ad nauseam – you don’t have to be omnipresent to hear the prayers of a finite number of people.

Bread,,,ONLY GOD is the 3 omni's.
So now we're going to say that saints....persons that have passed on to a different realm...
can also hear the prayers of many?

What is a finite number of people to you?
Here, the old timers pray to St. Anthony, St. Rita, St. Francis, St. Padre Pio, etc.

Whatever a person does in Heaven – even though it may seem impossible to YOU – is made possible by the power of GOD. For example, take Rev. 5:13, where John seems to be omniscient and omnipresent:
Rev. 5:13
Then I heard EVERY creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”

Did John hear them by his OWN power?

1. Revelation is not literal and we don't know if John actually HEARD or if he's using poetic language.
2. It's possible that he actually HEARD (audible)...that doesn't mean that anyone else will be able to. He was writing scripture that God wanted him to write.

As I'm sure you know, some doctrine taught by the CC developed with time. Purgatory would be one. Confession, as it is practiced today, would be another. Saints being prayed to would be another. These ideas were not present in the early church.

The Deuterocanonical Books were part of the open Jewish Canon until they were officially removed in the 2md century. This is AFER Jesus ascended to the Father and AFTER the destruction of the Temple.

This rabbinical gathering was led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137). He was a FALSE prophet who proclaimed a man named Simon Bar Kokhba as the “real” Messiah.

Before He was crucified - Jesus passed the mantle of Authority to His Church complete Authority to represent Him on earth and to speak on His behalf (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:16-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Agreed.

As for NOT using the Deuterocanonicals for doctrine - -this is false.

True. Macabees is used for praying to the dead.
But it's nowhere else and, as I've said, a doctrine should not be made from just one source.

As far back as St. Jerome, we see his use of these Books in debates about doctrine.
- (Ibid., Volume VI, Jerome, Prefaces to Jerome's Works, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs; Daniel, pp. 492-493).
- (Jerome, to Salvina, Letter 79:10, 400 AD, NPNF2, VI:168)

Origen
But not the high priest alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius
Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition... (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Liturgy of St. Basil
By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Gregory Nazianzen
Yes, I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]).

Gregory of Nyssa
Do you, [Ephraem] that art standing at the divine altar . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom (Sermon on Ephraem the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

Ambrose of Milan
May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance (Hexameron 5:25:90 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom
He that wears the purple . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Jerome
You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Thanks Bread.
By ECFs, I mean the early church fathers...like Clement of Rome or Igantius or Polycarp.

I'd like to make 2 statements:

1. As I said the doctrine did develop over time and the Fathers you quoted are into the 3rd and 4th century already.
2. When I consult the ECFs,,,I only will use their belief system IF they agree with each other. There were disagreements between them.

Here is what I know of them for this matter:

For to invoke angels without having obtained a knowledge of their nature greater than is possessed by men, would be contrary to reason. But, conformably to our hypothesis, let this knowledge of them, which is something wonderful and mysterious, be obtained. Then this knowledge, making known to us their nature, and the offices to which they are severally appointed, will not permit us to pray with confidence to any other than to the Supreme God, who is sufficient for all things,
Origen Contra Celsum Book V New Advent Ency


“We judge it improper to pray to those beings who themselves offer up prayers. For even they themselves would prefer that we should send up our requests to God to whom they pray, rather than to send them downwards to themselves, or to apportion our power of prayer between God and them.”
Origen Contra Celsum Book II New Advent Ency

In the next place, Celsus forgets that he is addressing Christians, who pray to God alone through Jesus; and mixing up other notions with theirs, he absurdly attributes them all to Christians.
Origen Against Celsus
source: Origen of Alexandria, Against Celsus

There's more but I don't have the time.
Since there doesn't seem to be agreement between what you posted and the above, I'd say that we have to go with scripture.
Scripture says to pray to God Father, as Jesus instructed in Matthew 6.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Look at that, I'm tagging you. I hope that makes you happy... LOL! Even if I hadn't, none of this can be classified as "gossip"... <smile>

"No "sense"

Just not the sense that you like... <smile> But yet it is what it is.​

"I posted many verses commanding man to SEEK GOD."

You did. Sure.​

"Reformed theology teaches that man is UNABLE to seek God."

Not in the sense you mean that, no.​

"And above you're doing what the reformed teach..."

Well yes, and in the sense that they teach it, which is contrary to the sense in which you mean it or want it to be.​

"One must be born again before he could be born again by seeking God."

Well now that is nonsense... but not what I said. If you cut out the nonsensical "before he could be born again" part, then you'd be on to something. One must be born again before he will earnestly seek the Lord. Otherwise, he will remain dead in his sin... at enmity with God, which means, GodsGrace, the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to God.​

"No logic. No sense."

The way you state it, yes.​

"Believe the bible instead of John Calvin."

Just a very strange statement. John Calvin stated it because the Bible ~ Jesus actually, to Nicodemus in John 3 ~ did:​

​

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:5-6).​

​

And what a man cannot see ~ in the sense that before being born again by the Spirit, he is blind ~ he cannot enter the kingdom of God... he will not choose the kingdom of God.​

Unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
Question is: HOW does a man become born again?

You state above that he will not choose the Kingdom.
I posted many verses that command us to seek God and He will be found.

THIS is how a man become born again:
Acts 16:31
31 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

Note that BELIEVE is a direction to follow/a command.

​

I say to you, believe the Bible instead of Jacobus Arminius. <smile>​

I'm an orthodox, mainline Christian.
I don't know who Arminius is.

But YOU do know who Calvin is because you follow his teachings....

Christians follow Christ.
Calvinists follow Calvin.

edited: unnecessary comments from you, as usual and to save space.

​

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because He has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the Light and does not come to the Light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the Light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”​

And WHY would some not believe in God?
John 3:18 states that they have not believed...
no mention there of God not having chosen them to believe, which is what calvinism teaches.

It even states why:
those that love the dark rather than the light.

As Paul stated:
Galatians 5:16
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another,


1. Paul exhorts us to walk by the Spirit.
This is a command denoting free will and HOW one will be saved.

2. Paul states that IN THIS WAY one will not carry out the desires of the flesh.
It DOES NOT state that God predestinated every action of man from the beginning as calvinism wrongly teaches.

3. It is THE FLESH that is in opposition to the Spirit.
Again...this denotes free will.
No scripture states that God predestinated the actions of man,,,as calvinism wrongly teaches.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

From above...

"I supplied a few verses."

You did, yes. <smile>​

"You've supplied none."

Ohhhhh, yes I have. Over and over and over again. And here, too...​

"Salvation is not accepted because one is born again of the spirit."

It is. No man will accept something he does not see... thinks foolishness.​

"One is born again of the spirit BECAUSE he has chosen salvation."
Nope. The other way around. These last two statements "Salvation is not accepted because one is born again of the spirit" and "One is born again of the spirit BECAUSE he has chosen salvation"... It's hard to believe that someone of your intelligence could say these two sentences in the same breath. Just breath-taking, actually. Will one who is dead choose anything? No... Will one who is at enmity with God choose God? No...

I post scripture Pin.
You post your opinions.
Please post my entire posts to you.
I DO NOT make conflicting statements and since my post is not above
I will not be responding to the above...however I will repeat:

ONE IS BORN AGAIN
BECAUSE
HE HAS CHOSEN SALVATION.

Yes. Man is ABLE to choose to be saved because God would want that all men be saved,
and so God has given us the conditions by which we can be saved.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


To be saved we must:
1. Believe in the Son.
2. Obey Him.

No talk AT ALL of being predestined by God for either Salvation or damnation, which is what calvinism wrongly teaches.

"We are saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH"

Absolutely, and... don't forget... "this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..." See, here again, you are ~ in effect ~ saying that we manufacture our own faith, and you therefore ~ again, in effect " are making faith out to be a work of man, a gift from man to God, and thereby making man out to be at least somewhat responsible for his own salvation. Surely, you don't mean to be, but that is the unavoidable implication of what you are saying.​

Pin...I post scripture.
All Christians EXCEPT THE REFORMED understand scripture exactly as I do.

Paul said FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
Calvinists claim that having faith is a work.
This is a doctrine made up by Calvinists.

Paul doez not agree with you:
Here is what PAUL stated:

Galatians 2:16
16Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ

Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works,

Romans 3:28
28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


As you can clearly see...we are saved by faith.
And if it is by faith...it cannot be by works, as plainly stated by Paul.

"We call on the name of the Lord and THEN we are saved."

That's exactly contrary to what Joel, Paul, Peter ~ and Jesus ~ say. But so be it. No, our calling on the name of the Lord is because He calls us, and in the sense of this call ~ which you will not bring yourself to accept ~ it is only issued to His elect.​

Thank you for confirming what Calvinism teaches.
That God CHOOSES who will be saved and who will be damned.
This is not the God of the NT whom JESUS represented.

If you want to show that God calls only the elect...
I'm afraid you'll have to use scripture just like I do.

Your incorrect opinions do not interest anyone on this thread...
even those that read along but do not post.

Use scripture please.

"Reformed theology teaches that we are saved first, and then we call on the name of the Lord."

Well, our hearts are changed from stone to flesh, and we are no longer at enmity with the Lord, and then... then... yes, we call on the name of the Lord.​

"If a person is already saved...why would they need to call on the name of the Lord?"

LOL! This does bring up a good point though; there is a sense in which we are already saved, and there is also a sense in which we are still being saved, which answers your question ...though you will probably reject this, too...​

"Thanks you for admitting that reformed theology teaches that man is totally depraved ... "

Well, I never denied such... but only denied your wrongheaded understanding of what total depravity is, what John Calvin meant by that term.​

"nowhere is this found in the NT."

Jesus says, "With man, this is impossible. But with God..." <smile>​

"Thanks for admitting that reformed theology teaches that man has no free will..."

​

"the NT teaches that man has free will."

Sure it does. And the Old Testament too... <smile> But there is a certain sense ~ again, both in the Old Testament and the New ~ in which the will is never free. In this sense, every person is always captive, really, to one thing or the other.​

"Free agency....cute wording."

Yeah I did that just for you. <smile> It is what it is. Only God is autonomous.​

"WE ARE AGENTS Pin."

Yes! We are! LOL! Hey, are you Shield? Or Hydra? LOL! I said... free... agents... <smile> ...and clarified that as being completely autonomous, accountable to no one, and of course we are... not that. Goodness gracious.​

Very intertaining I'm sure.
But I'm here to discuss theology.

And, I would like to repeat, that calvinists are really bad at supporting their point of view.
And it IS a point of view because calvinism is heretical.

Heretical means that it teaches unorthodox christianity...
IOW...they believe a type of Christianity THAT NO OTHER DENOMINATION BELIEVES.

 

[Hey You!]

Good morning HY
I don't believer there's such a belief as soft calvinism.
It's still calvinism.

Every single belief of reformed/calvinist theology is in direct opposition to mainline Christianiy
and what the New Testament teaches.

If a calvinist tell me that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek God....
and I post at least 10 verses or more that either asks us to seek God or demands that we seek God...
then we have a severe conflict in the bible and, as we both know, if the bible has conflict we'll have to agree that
it is not to be trusted.

Since the bible is the World of God and we CAN TRUST it...
then we have to believe that the theology that is causing the conflict is incorrect.

In this case, it would be calvinism.

This is true for each and every one of the 5 points of TULIP...
which I debunked in my posts no. 844 and 845 with many verses showing that we
are to trust scripture and not a man called Calvin.

To avoid the Conflict in Theology, we're to use the Hermeneutic, "All Scripture is Good for Doctrine". The Bible supports your side and it supports Calvin's side, so I believe both sides because of who is speaking to us through the Bible. I'm a true Sola Scrpturist...

The thing about you choosing your side, is that it's a Case of Special Pleading; making a Plea for only one side of the Story. Doing this authenticates the Hyper Calvinist's position; because they also make a Plea only for their side. When both sides are Guilty of Committing the Logical Fallacy of Special Pleading, the Debate lasts forever; because both sides have Biblical Truths on their side...

The best Hermeneutic is Sola Scriptura; the Bible is the Highest Spiritual Authority which we use to settle Spiritual Disputes. There is no one who does good, no not One; and Believing the Gospel is something Good we do. 'Classical' Arminians exist because they believe Grace has come to All people; but they still believe in Total Depravity. They believe that before Grace appears, no one does Good, but after Grace appears, we can do Good and believe the Gospel. I dare say that all Evangelicals believe Grace precedes Faith. If Grace precedes Faith, no on can Faith without Grace; right?

 

[GodsGrace]

To avoid the Conflict in Theology, we're to use the Hermeneutic, "All Scripture is Good for Doctrine". The Bible supports your side and it supports Calvin's side, so I believe both sides because of who is speaking to us through the Bible. I'm a true Sola Scrpturist...

I have some time so maybe we could discuss.
I have been using only scripture till now.
Although, I also use history or I never would have known who Augustine is.

The thing about you choosing your side, is that it's a Case of Special Pleading; making a Plea for only one side of the Story By doing this, you authenticate the Hyper Calvinist's position; because they also make a Plea only for their side. When both sides are Guilty of Committing the Logical Fallacy of Special Pleading, the Debate lasts forever; because both sides have Biblical Truths on their side...

I believe the debate will last forever because in the 1500's some theologians decided that man had no free will,,,according to the Augustine I mentioned above. John Calvin became enamored of a man from the 5th century, Augustine, who was a manachaen gnostic for 10 years of his life before joining the Christian faith.

He was good for a while,,,but then he fell back into his gnostic belief system.

Since Calvin believed that man is totally depraved he cannot possibly become saved on his own but God must do the choosing.

This is not taught anywhere in scripture.
In scripture man has free will and man is admonished to seek for God.

According to calvinism...man is not able to seek God.

So who would be right?
Calvin or scripture?

The best Hermeneutic is Sola Scriptura; the Bible is the Highest Spiritual Authority which we use to settle Spiritual Disputes.

Agreed. So if scripture can settle a dispute...
why is this one still going on?

Let me ask you this: Was ANY of calvinist theology taught before the reformation?
The answer is NO. The early church that was left by Jesus believed NONE of calvinist theology.

If it did...then it should be easy to prove it...
but no one on this thread is able to.

There is no one who does good,

Even atheists do good.
So surely this verse means something different.
It's referring to something David said in Psalm 14...
he's speaking about THOSE THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.
He calls them FOOLS.

There is no scripture in the NT that states that man is totally depraved...
what it states is that ALL MEN HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:22-25
22This righteousness is given through faith in h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.

It states:
1. Righteousness is given through faith in Christ.
2. To all who beleive, as is shown in John 3:16.
3. Both Jews and Gentiles have sinned and fallen short.
4. Both Jews and Gentiles are justified FREELY by God's grace through Jesus.
5. The shedding of Jesus' blood - salvation - is received by faith.

No talk of predestinating anyone for salvation or damnation.
It's pure and simple and easy to understand.
The gospel was written so that we may become saved.

no not One; and Believing the Gospel is something Good we do. 'Classical' Arminians exist because they believe Grace has come to All people; but they still believe in Total Depravity. They believe that before Grace appears, no one does Good, but after Grace appears, All can do the Good of believing the Gospel. I dare say that all Evangelicals believe Grace precedes Faith. If Grace precedes Fairh, no on can Faith without Grace; right?

I don't know what Arminians believe.
I believe in Christianity as it is defined in the NT.

There is no concept of TOTAL DEPRAVITY in the NT.
If you have some verses, I'd sure like to see them.

Grace precedes faith.
But being born again - regenerated - does NOT preceded faith.
FAITH precedes being born again.

Ephesians 2:8 is incredibly easy...but calvinists twist everything to suit themselves.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith...

It is by God's GRACE that man is saved....
through the instrument of FAITH.

So first we have to have faith...
and THEN we are saved.

ALL are gifts from God:
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

Man cannot EARN his salvation...
he only has to accept God's conditions:

John 3:16 WHOSOEVER BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED.
John 3:36 BELIEF AND OBEDIENCE WILL SAVE.

 

[Hey You!]

Even atheists do good.

Since I'm a Lowest Common Denominator kind of guy, a Fundamentalist; this is what I want to talk about. This is an example of Special Pleading for your Pretexts, and not allowing the Reformed (even Classical Arminians) to Plead for their Pretexts. This means they are not being Unfair when they deny you a place in the Arena of Ideas too; because you are setting a Standard of limiting the Scripture. When the Bible says 'no one does Good', it has to be true in some sense. If you want them to stop Stonewalling, you will want to stop Stonewalling first...

 

[Hey You!]

Since I'm a Lowest Common Denominator kind of guy, a Fundamentalist; this is what I want to talk about. This is an example of Special Pleading for your Pretexts, and not allowing the Reformed (even Classical Arminians) to Plead for their Pretexts. This means they are not being Unfair when they deny you a place in the Arena of Ideas too. When the Bible says 'no one does Good', it has to be true in some sense. If you want them to stop Stonewalling, you will want to stop Stonewalling first...

The Arena of Ideas ~ by ReverendRV * October 17

Acts 17:20 NIV; You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean."

I was witnessing to someone who lost his Faith and moved on to become an Atheist because of Scientific Theories; this is what I said. ~ “I want to cut to the chase and discuss ‘The Arena of Ideas’. You’re Willing to consider there may be a God but want it to be evidence based; as I also want my Faith to be evidence based. Atheists don’t allow Theism even a corner in the Arena of Ideas. I usually do decent until they get to the point they stop allowing Theism a place in the Arena”. When an Idea is displaced from this Arena, basically the debate is over. I have to move on; until a new person does the same and gets to a point of saying 'It's impossible for God to exist'. ~ So the Moral to my story is that if you allow me a corner in the Arena of Ideas, you are more likely to be an Agnostic than you are an Atheist. Is it fair for you to stop the discussion by issuing a mandate that there is no God? If not, who is the one that's truly closed Minded?

Many Scientists are also Christians so you can be too; Science is not an excuse. ~ Are you a good person? An Atheist can be a good person, maybe better than the average Christian; but the average person is as bad as anyone else. Have you ever told a Lie? What do we call people who tell Lie after Lie? A Liar, right? How many Lies have you ever told? Let’s cut to the chase again; the Bible says that Lust is Adultery and Hatred is Murder committed in your Heart. “Thou shalt have no god before me”; this means that when you expel God from the Arena of Ideas, not only do you not have any gods ‘before’ him but you don’t even have God; which is part of the first Commandment. If God Judges you by his Righteous standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell? ‘IF’ God exists, you’re Condemned…

But God so Loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish and have everlasting Life! We cannot be in the presence of God because he is Holy Righteous; but God can be in our presence when he indwells a Holy Righteous person. Jesus Christ was born of the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary and didn’t inherit the Sin of Adam through a human father; he was born Sinless. Jesus remained Sinless his entire life and was Good enough to go to Heaven, but gave up his reward and took the place of Hell on the Cross, receiving the Wrath of God for the Sin of the world; the Just dying for the Unjust. His blood cries out to God like the blood of Abel cried out, and God hears our plea. Jesus arose from the dead and Forgives us of our Sin. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Savior Jesus Christ, apart from our ever trying to earn our Pardon. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to Church to study the Bible. ~ Will you allow me a corner in the Arena of Ideas, but later sweep out the dust from that corner? If you will never take away the corner from me, then aren't you really an Agnostic? There is proof of God, if you remain Open Minded…

Hebrews 11:1 KJV; Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Since I'm a Lowest Common Denominator kind of guy, a Fundamentalist; this is what I want to talk about. This is an example of Special Pleading for your Pretexts, and not allowing the Reformed (even Classical Arminians) to Plead for their Pretexts. This means they are not being Unfair when they deny you a place in the Arena of Ideas too; because you are setting abStandard of limiting the Scripture. When the Bible says 'no one does Good', it has to be true in some sense. If you want them to stop Stonewalling, you will want to stop Stonewalling first...

I don't mind anyone stonewalling me Hey.
But I'll tell you this:
Calvinism is not Christianity as it was taught by Jesus, Paul or anyone else in the NT.

I will NEVER stop debunking Calvinism because it's a scar on Christianity.

It states that no man is able to become saved unless God wants him to.
And what does the bible state? That God would want that every man be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do you know how calvinists reply to the above? One of two ways:

1. God must be a weak God because He wants everyone to be saved and yet He cannot save everyone.
2. You must be a universalist.

What do YOU think it means?

So, you see, everywhere we turn,,,calvinism creates conflicts in NT teachings.
They change the meaning of words....
They don't use hermeneutics...
And they change the very character of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Arena of Ideas ~ by ReverendRV * October 17

Acts 17:20 NIV; You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean."

I was witnessing to someone who lost his Faith and moved on to become an Atheist because of Scientific Theories; this is what I said. ~ “I want to cut to the chase and discuss ‘The Arena of Ideas’. You’re Willing to consider there may be a God but want it to be evidence based; as I also want my Faith to be evidence based. Atheists don’t allow Theism even a corner in the Arena of Ideas. I usually do decent until they get to the point they stop allowing Theism a place in the Arena”. When an Idea is displaced from this Arena, basically the debate is over. I have to move on; until a new person does the same and gets to a point of saying 'It's impossible for God to exist'. ~ So the Moral to my story is that if you allow me a corner in the Arena of Ideas, you are more likely to be an Agnostic than you are an Atheist. Is it fair for you to stop the discussion by issuing a mandate that there is no God? If not, who is the one that's truly closed Minded?

Many Scientists are also Christians so you can be too; Science is not an excuse. ~ Are you a good person? An Atheist can be a good person, maybe better than the average Christian; but the average person is as bad as anyone else. Have you ever told a Lie? What do we call people who tell Lie after Lie? A Liar, right? How many Lies have you ever told? Let’s cut to the chase again; the Bible says that Lust is Adultery and Hatred is Murder committed in your Heart. “Thou shalt have no god before me”; this means that when you expel God from the Arena of Ideas, not only do you not have any gods ‘before’ him but you don’t even have God; which is part of the first Commandment. If God Judges you by his Righteous standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell? ‘IF’ God exists, you’re Condemned…

But God so Loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish and have everlasting Life! We cannot be in the presence of God because he is Holy Righteous; but God can be in our presence when he indwells a Holy Righteous person. Jesus Christ was born of the Holy Spirit in the Virgin Mary and didn’t inherit the Sin of Adam through a human father; he was born Sinless. Jesus remained Sinless his entire life and was Good enough to go to Heaven, but gave up his reward and took the place of Hell on the Cross, receiving the Wrath of God for the Sin of the world; the Just dying for the Unjust. His blood cries out to God like the blood of Abel cried out, and God hears our plea. Jesus arose from the dead and Forgives us of our Sin. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Savior Jesus Christ, apart from our ever trying to earn our Pardon. Repent of your Sin, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to Church to study the Bible. ~ Will you allow me a corner in the Arena of Ideas, but later sweep out the dust from that corner? If you will never take away the corner from me, then aren't you really an Agnostic? There is proof of God, if you remain Open Minded…

Hebrews 11:1 KJV; Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Who is RevRV?

 

[GodsGrace]

@Hey You!

This is the beginning of Fuller's book:

Go, preach the gospel to every creature: he that believes and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned! — Jesus Christ.

100% in line with New Testament teaching.

Then he goes on to state that God chose who will be saved from the beginning of time.

So which is it?

If God chose who will be saved from the beginning of time...
why would it be necessary to preach the gospel?

 

[Hey You!]

I don't mind anyone stonewalling me Hey.
But I'll tell you this:
Calvinism is not Christianity as it was taught by Jesus, Paul or anyone else in the NT.

I will NEVER stop debunking Calvinism because it's a scar on Christianity.

It states that no man is able to become saved unless God wants him to.
And what does the bible state? That God would want that every man be saved:
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do you know how calvinists reply to the above? One of two ways:

1. God must be a weak God because He wants everyone to be saved and yet He cannot save everyone.
2. You must be a universalist.

What do YOU think it means?

So, you see, everywhere we turn,,,calvinism creates conflicts in NT teachings.
They change the meaning of words....
They don't use hermeneutics...
And they change the very character of God.

Fair enough...

I'm not a Fighter. You will like some of my Stuff; but not all of it...

 

[Hey You!]

Who is RevRV?

Me...

That's my Pseudonym for my Gospel Tract book; a year long Daily Devotional of One Page Gospel Tracts. That's why they have Dates included at top. I haven't Published the Book yet. A Link is on my Profile...

 

[Hey You!]

@Hey You!

This is the beginning of Fuller's book:

Go, preach the gospel to every creature: he that believes and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that does not believe shall be damned! — Jesus Christ.

100% in line with New Testament teaching.

Then he goes on to state that God chose who will be saved from the beginning of time.

So which is it?

If God chose who will be saved from the beginning of time...
why would it be necessary to preach the gospel?

In Fullerism, it's both. It may not appeal to you, but it will Appeal to some...

It's necessary to Preach the Gospel, because we're Justified through Faith Alone; we're not Justified by Unconditional Election...

This is the biggest problem when it comes to Calvinists and Non Calvinists; People Conflate Election with Justification, or Justification with Election. We Commit the Logical Fallacy of Making Category Mistakes. For many, they Categorize Justification with Election; making them the same Category. They are not; they are Spelled differently and have different meanings. I would say that if God Elected someone, but the Person was never Justified through Faith; the Election was Moot...

Wouldn't you say that if someone got Saved, then God Elected him, but the Person Lost his Salvation; God's Election was Moot?

 

[Hey You!]

Who is RevRV?

Questions about the Bible ~ by ReverendRV * Leap Year Februrary 29

Acts 26:28 ESV; And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”

How much time would it take before someone could convince you to become a Christian? Just how many Questions about the Bible do you have? None?? Well, it shouldn’t take long to convince you then. Oh now you’re story changes; you have more in common with King Agrippa than you first thought. I have a saying, “Some people need a little bit of evidence to have great Faith, but some need great evidence to have a little bit of Faith”. For some, I may be able to say enough in a one page Gospel Tract to convince them to become a Christian; but for people like you and Agrippa, it may take more. How many questions about the Bible do you think it would take for me to answer, before you’d become a Christian? Maybe 5? Maybe 20 or 50? If you need 365 answers, one each day of the year; I may be exposing your bias, right?

Are you a good person? There’s a questionnaire you can take to show how good you are; do you want to take it? ~ Have you ever told a Lie? If you’re hesitant to give an answer to the one who has asked you, I can answer for you; just like you can answer for me. What do we call people that tell Lies? A Liar; right? If one Lie makes you second best, how far back in the line do all your Lies put you?? Have you Stolen ‘anything’? What do you call someone who Steals? If Stealing sets you back in that line, how far would you be? Wait a minute; how can one person be at the head of two different lines? There’s only one line, so how far back in line are you now?? These are just two of God’s Ten Commandments, if God judged you by his standard, would you be innocent or guilty? Will you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you? ~ The other Commandments can’t help but can only send you further and further back in the line…

Your next question about the Bible should now be how to be Forgiven. The Bible tells us how to escape God’s judgment! For God so Loved the world he gave his only unique Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal Life! The Son of God condescended to become a Man, and live a Holy life so that the Righteous requirements of the Ten Commandments would be fulfilled. This allowed Jesus to become the King of Israel in waiting, the Monarch of all who believe. As your Federal Head, he will Pardon all your Sin and give you his good standing in Life. To satisfy the Justice of God his Father, he took the punishment for our Sins by bleeding to death on a Cross. The Bible says that if he stayed in the grave, our Faith is futile. Jesus Christ arose from the dead and was seen by 500 witnesses! We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, apart from Meritorious Deeds we could do. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God; and join a Bible believing Church. ~ If you still need more persuasion than I can give in this short time, I have hundreds of Gospel Tracts already. If I write one for every day of the year and answered hard questions, do you think that would be enough?

1st Peter 3:15 KJV; But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[BreadOfLife]

Bread,,,ONLY GOD is the 3 omni's.
So now we're going to say that saints....persons that have passed on to a different realm...
can also hear the prayers of many?

I don’t understand this lack of faith on your part.

You can believe that –
- God simply SPOKE - and the entire universe leapt into existence . . .
- God created a man - with biological complexities that are impossible foe man to produce . . .
- God gave Moses the power to part the sea . . .

HOWEVER – God allowing those in Heaven to hear the petitions if those on earth is mpossible for Hom? REALLY?

What is a finite number of people to you?
Here, the old timers pray to St. Anthony, St. Rita, St. Francis, St. Padre Pio, etc.

“Finite” means that it has a limit or an end.

And if GOD wants to grant those in Heaven the ability to hear ALL prayers at the ` time – that’s up to HIM – not YOU . . .

1. Revelation is not literal and we don't know if John actually HEARD or if he's using poetic language.
2. It's possible that he actually HEARD (audible)...that doesn't mean that anyone else will be able to. He was writing scripture that God wanted him to write.

This is all a cop-out for a real believer . . .

The idea that you guys don’t believe that God has the power to give the saints in Heab the ability to hear earthly petitions for prayer just blows me away. You can believe He did it for John – but He’s NOT able to do it for others??

As I'm sure you know, some doctrine taught by the CC developed with time. Purgatory would be one. Confession, as it is practiced today, would be another. Saints being prayed to would be another. These ideas were not present in the early church.

The doctrine of the Trinity developed, as it is only implicitly taught in Scripture.
The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is another.
And guess what?? The Canon of Scripture developed over time as well.

ALL of these things were declared by God’s only earthly Authority – His Church.

Here are some Protestant doctrines that developed “over time” – several of which aren’t even implicitly taught in Scripture:
- Sola Scriptura
- Sola Fide
- A Pre-Trib “Rapture”
- Limited Atonement
- Imputed righteousness
- Eternal Security (“Once Saved, Always Saved”)
- Accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior

True. Macabees is used for praying to the dead.
But it's nowhere else and, as I've said, a doctrine should not be made from just one source.

NOT true. It perfectly correlates with Rev. 8:5.

Thanks Bread.
By ECFs, I mean the early church fathers...like Clement of Rome or Igantius or Polycarp.

Every quote I listed was from and Early Church Father.
You can’t just cherry-pick which ones YOU want to read.

Besides – NOT every single doctrine was written about by the 3 Fathers you mentioned.

I'd like to make 2 statements:

1. As I said the doctrine did develop over time and the Fathers you quoted are into the 3rd and 4th century already.
2. When I consult the ECFs,,,I only will use their belief system IF they agree with each other. There were disagreements between them.

Here is what I know of them for this matter:

For to invoke angels without having obtained a knowledge of their nature greater than is possessed by men, would be contrary to reason. But, conformably to our hypothesis, let this knowledge of them, which is something wonderful and mysterious, be obtained. Then this knowledge, making known to us their nature, and the offices to which they are severally appointed, will not permit us to pray with confidence to any other than to the Supreme God, who is sufficient for all things,
Origen Contra Celsum Book V New Advent Ency

“We judge it improper to pray to those beings who themselves offer up prayers. For even they themselves would prefer that we should send up our requests to God to whom they pray, rather than to send them downwards to themselves, or to apportion our power of prayer between God and them.”
Origen Contra Celsum Book II New Advent Ency

In the next place, Celsus forgets that he is addressing Christians, who pray to God alone through Jesus; and mixing up other notions with theirs, he absurdly attributes them all to Christians.
Origen Against Celsus
source: Origen of Alexandria, Against Celsus

There's more but I don't have the time.
Since there doesn't seem to be agreement between what you posted and the above, I'd say that we have to go with scripture.
Scripture says to pray to God Father, as Jesus instructed in Matthew 6.

Funny that you should say that you will ONLY use their belief system IF they agree with each other. And I’m NOT surprised that you would only use the words of Origen and not the others I listed.

Origen was an adherent of "apokatastasis: - the belief that ALL sols – even the damned – will eventually be reconciled to God. Although many of his writings are useful – he is not officially recognized as an ECF because of his heretical views.

As for the other ECF’s – they AGREE that asking those in Heaven to pray for us us a good thing . . .

 

[PinSeeker]

Question is: HOW does a man become born again?

That's one of the things we've been discussing, yes, but I think we all agree that it is by the Holy Spirit. If you disagree, then that puts you far outside... mainstream Christianity, at least on that one thing.

You state above that he will not choose the Kingdom.

No, just on its face, this statement is not correct.

THIS is how a man become born again:
Acts 16:31
31 Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.

And yet, as Jesus said to Nicodemus (and I pointed out), "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." No one denies that our belief is very, very important, but irrefutably, we Christians believe in the Lord Jesus and are saved because we have been born again of the Spirit.

Note that BELIEVE is a direction to follow/a command.

It's an exhortation. No need to argue about that... although you will, I'm sure... but it's not a command, and not even remotely in the sense of God's/Jesus's commandments.

I'm an orthodox, mainline Christian.

As am I.

I don't know who Arminius is.

I don't care; it matters not. I think you do, but still it matters not. We all have many, many influences in our life, past and present, that we are not even aware of.

But YOU do know who Calvin is because you follow his teachings....

I believe what he taught was correct, yes? Follow him, no.

Christians follow Christ.

Absolutely.

Calvinists follow Calvin.

Absolutely not. If you want to say that, then, in the same sense, Arminians ~ whether they realize it or not or even know who he was ~ follow Arminius. But that's just as silly a statement as "Calvinists follow Calvin."

And WHY would some not believe in God?

Well, you could... but refuse to, I guess... listen to what Jesus says in John 6, 8, and 10 (respectively):
I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me... No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
If God were your Father, you would love Me... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.
I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish... My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Our belief, GodsGrace, is obviously not causative of our being born again of God by the Holy Spirit, but the result of it.

...those that love the dark rather than the light.

Right, and why, in light of what this same John who related to us Jesus's words there in John 3:18 says, "to all who did receive Him, Who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13) and "We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Continued...