The Doctrines of Grace

[Ezra]

so curious how does a calvinist get saved ? what for God to make a appointment. Calvinism has some good points and has bad ones

 

[Lambano]

He has no favourites...I can assure you at times ,especially what I am going through at the moment, I don’t feel blessed, I know he is in control, but it doesn’t stop me hurting, especially as I live alone and hardly ever see my family just lately,..I feel very physically alone to be honest, I know I’m not alone in spirit,..but I am physically...I can’t get another dog as my AF has come back....I would appreciate your prayers as quite honestly I’m struggling at the moment, ..family problems and a situation that I have been in for the past 33 yrs...still I wait for God to bring it to fruition...

I’m struggling but it doesn’t stop me praising Gods Name....”.now, “.........all I’ve been doing latey ,past time, is moaning to him..lol...I’ve starting praising him again, even though I’m struggling....when I think of what Jesus must have gone through, ..it helps me with my struggles..ive been crying a lot to God lately, asking him to remove this burden I’ve been carrying for the past 33 yrs, I ask him to take it from me, he does, then I keep taking it back on board, even though it’s not my burden to carry, it involves me......my faith in God is very much up and down at the moment, especially in this 33 yr situation that I’ve never been able to share with anyone....only God...we all have our cross to carry , Brother, we well know, it ain’t no easy road that we walk...I know what you have faced just lately, the heartbreak you both must feel, I pray that God helps to heal that pain of losing a beloved Son....my thoughts and prayers are often with you both..

I don't know what to say.

So maybe I won't say anything, and just honor your request for prayer.

 

[PinSeeker]

…Kecharitomene means far more than that . . .

"It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.

Yes, and that applies to every one of us who have been born again and are thus regenerate by and of the Holy Spirit. Paul uses the same transliterated Greek word in Ephesians 1:6. It is God’s grace, of course, and He has blessed us all with it in the Beloved.

The Immaculate Conception posits, however, that Mary was saved at conception – that grace being applied to her prior to her birth.

There is no Biblical evidence at all for this. But, I will say it is possible for God to convert anyone to Christ even while he or she is in his or her mother’s womb; John (Elizabeth’s son) is proof of that.

Nowhere does the Magnificat ever imply that Mary‘s salvation was a future condition.

No idea what spurred this comment. I certainly didn’t say or suggest such.

The difference is that saving grace was applied to her before she was born.

Again, no biblical evidence of this whatsoever. But certainly, she was chosen by God to be the recipient of God’s saving grace before she was born, as all Christians are… even before the foundation of the world.

“Completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result.”

This is the state of all born-again Christians… which, if one is born again of the Spirit, of course he or she is a Christian… <smile>

I also have questions about whether human depravity really implies the inability to trust in anything or believe in anything (such as the Gospel)…

The inability is in the sense not that he/she woodenly cannot, but that he/she will not, because he or she is fully and totally inclined not to believe God and the Gospel… and this is because he/she is not of God… even because he/she is of the devil. Remember what Jesus says to two different groups of Jews in John 8 — “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires… Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God” — and John 10 — “…you do not believe because you are not among my sheep…”

, or whether believers are guaranteed to persevere….

We do not persevere in and of ourselves but because we have the Spirit, in whose power we are kept:

“…neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).

“In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14).

“…He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ” (Philippians 1:6)

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Peter 1:3-5).

If Limited Atonement is true, Paul CANNOT honestly preach his Gospel indiscriminately to the whole world because Christ did not die for those not elected before the foundation of the world. THE GOSPEL IS A LIE, and those elected for damnation SHOULD NOT BELIEVE IT.

There is a sense in which Christ died for the world — His sacrifice was sufficient for all — but also a sense in which Christ only died for God’s elect — His sacrifice was only made effectual for those God chose before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion, as God Himself, through Moses and quoted by Paul, so, obviously, Paul understood well both senses of Christ’s perfect atonement. This is not directed at you or anyone else here, Lambano, but as Paul says, “Who are you, O man, to answer back to God, ‘Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory — even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Romans 9)

The Gospel, of course, is not a lie. The Gospel — Good News — is that salvation through Christ is available to and sufficient for all.

No one is “elected to damnation.” But some — and Paul could not have known exactly who, nor can we — are not among God’s elect and thus are not predestined to eternal life.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Lambano]

There is a sense in which Christ died for the world — His sacrifice was sufficient for all — but also a sense in which Christ only died for God’s elect — His sacrifice was only made effectual for those God chose before the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I'm glad to see you acknowledge the sense that Christ died for the world. Your understanding is analogous to the Arminian understanding that Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), but His death is effectual only for those who trust Him. (As it should be, because the Reformed understanding is that those who trust Christ and those whom God chose before the foundation of the world are coterminous.) In both cases, this is a work-around to avoid the charges of "universalism" (sorry, brother St.SteVen, brother NotTheRock). However, in these discussions, those defending a Limited Atonement typically deny that sense that Christ died for the sins of each and every person - and perform unnatural acts on the text of 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Corinthians 15:3, Hebrews 2:9, et. al. in order to do so.

No one is “elected to damnation.” But some — and Paul could not have known exactly who, nor can we — are not among God’s elect and thus are not predestined to eternal life.

Think about the logical contradiction there. If one is not predestined to eternal life, what IS that person's destiny? God either chooses to save, or God chooses not to save. There is a reason this is called the "horrible decree". (If you were to argue that the rules of logic do not apply here, we have no tools with which to argue, so why bother?)

The Gospel, of course, is not a lie. The Gospel — Good News — is that salvation through Christ is available to and sufficient for all.

Is it? Is salvation REALLY available to all? How does one change their destiny?

 

[MatthewG]

The first time I had issue with it was shortly after becoming saved. It was several years before PC's. I was at the library all the time to get my hands on as many "Christian" books as I could. Many were great but this one, cannot remember who wrote it or it's title but, it was all about Calvinism. Well, of course it shook me up pretty good and I lost the joy of my salvation not to mention the little hope I already had had been stomped on. After speaking with my Pastor and good friend and sister in Christ, they calmed me yet, 30 some years later I remain with times of doubt.

Funny thing is that, 13 years ago I decided to walk into a reformed-Baptist church. The new pastor and his wife, not to mention pretty much the whole congregation were unapproachable, the wife literally and blatantly shunned me. I did not know they were Calvinist until I made an appointment with the young new pastor, I outright said something to the effect of "I am NOT a Calvinist, he said "I am a staunch 5 pointer; I think from there on in he could care less. He also said something un-becoming a man of God; "I would say more than half of this congregation was not saved"!
Was a very dry church and most there, had no idea what their pastor believed.
I foolishly stayed on for a couple of years will near zero fellowship. It became unbearable to even drive by that place, I left hurt and yet again questioning my salvation.

I know that Pink, Piper, MacArthur...have some good teachings outside of T.U.L.I.P.

Thank you for sharing, Nancy.

 

[JLB]

The Doctrines of Grace only Glorify God and not man, that is why many hate them.

Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 9


Receiving and following the wrong doctrine can lead us away from Christ.

 

[JLB]

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there any unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the one who wills or the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND IN ORDER THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory—

Romans 9 contextually involves election for purpose NOT election for salvation.


…for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
Romans 9:11


The purpose God elected the Jews was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

That is the context.


who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:4-5

 

[JLB]

so curious how does a calvinist get saved ?

God “sovereignly” saves them without them ever hearing or believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


It’s a Christ-less salvation.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

God “sovereignly” saves them without them ever hearing or believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


It’s a Christ-less salvation.

Thats just not true.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My friend, you did not "allow" God to do anything.

God does whatever He pleases.

your right

And he pleases and soverignly choses that he will not force his gift on you. He wants a relationship. So he will offer it to you, If you want it great, if you do not want it, he will move to the next person.

Believe as you will, your childish comments mean nothing.

Sorry if the truth sounds like hate. are you a liberal?

Yes I do, the teachings (doctrine) of the Bible.


Romans 9 is also about salvation.

Do you understand Soteriology?


Again, if that were true, there would be no one in hell because all sins would be paid for, even the sin of unbelief.

Lets get this straight

You said he offered the whole world salvation.

But then you claim he only died for the elect.

And now your saying no one would be in hell. Ignoring that fact. that all unbelievers will be in hell because they do not believe.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You should study Theology Proper to have a better understanding of who God is and His attributes.

I been studying for 40 years now

I have found the truth.

You should stop listening to men, they have led you astray

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm glad to see you acknowledge the sense that Christ died for the world.

Well of course. But it is also true ~ in a different sense, as I said above ~ that Christ's atonement was only for God's elect. Both statements are true; because they are in different senses, the two statements do not contradict each other. Many cannot accept this ~ and that doesn't make them "less Christian" or "dumb"... <smile>... but true it is.

Your understanding is analogous to the Arminian understanding that Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), but His death is effectual only for those who trust Him.

Well, right, but Arminians would say that one's trust in Jesus is solely the result of their decision to follow Christ, which isn't incorrect, but it is God, who changes hearts (by the work of His Holy Spirit), who initiates this "chain reaction," so to speak.

(As it should be, because the Reformed understanding is that those who trust Christ and those whom God chose before the foundation of the world are coterminous.)

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with what you say here, Lambano, but really, the "chain reaction" that I spoke of above is, yes, God chooses whom He chooses before the foundation of the world, and then ~ if one is chosen ~ at the appointed time in his or her life, the Holy Spirit comes to that person and "changes the heart of stone to a heart of flesh," as Ezekiel (11:19; 36:26) puts it, thereby giving him or her new birth in the Spirit ~ God, puts His Spirit into them, giving them a new spirit ~ and their decision to follow Christ inevitably follows, as nothing can thwart God's purposes. Again, I understand what you are saying here, and don't disagree, but it's just not quite accurate in reflecting who does what in conferring salvation upon a person. The core issue, really, is what and/or whom does it depend on? Paul is crystal clear in Romans 9 when he writes:

"...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls... it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills." ​

Salvation is of the Lord.

...in these discussions, those defending a Limited Atonement typically deny that sense that Christ died for the sins of each and every person - and perform unnatural acts on the text of 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Corinthians 15:3, Hebrews 2:9, et. al. in order to do so.

Some do, yes, but the other side of that is that others, in defending unlimited atonement, are really saying ~ maybe without meaning to, but it is what it is ~ that God's purposes can be thwarted (a contradiction of Job's statement in Job 42:2) and God, Who began a good work in a person, might not bring it to completion at the day of Christ (a contradiction of Paul's statement in Philippians 1:6), and at least inadvertently make a person's faith out to be a personal work rather than God's grace (a contradiction of Paul's statement in Romans 11:6), and even a contradiction of Jesus's statement that His sheep hear His voice, and He knows them, and they follow Him; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of His hand; His Father, Who has given them to Him, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:27-29).

Yet again, though, there is a certain sense in which Jesus's atonement is unlimited... and it is absolutely biblical... while at the same time a sense ~ a different sense, and this is the sense of John Calvin's 'L' ~ in which Jesus's atonement is limited, and it is also absolutely biblical.

Think about the logical contradiction there.

Ah. <smile>

If one is not predestined to eternal life, what IS that person's destiny? God either chooses to save, or God chooses not to save. There is a reason this is called the "horrible decree". (If you were to argue that the rules of logic do not apply here, we have no tools with which to argue, so why bother?)

If you want to argue predestination to judgment by elimination from predestination to being conformed to the image of His Son and thus eternal life, then I have no problem with that, really, but God does not actively predestine to judgment. Really, Adam, as federal head of the human race (Romans 5:12), and thus our representative in Eden, consigned himself and all that have come after him, his progeny, everyone, all to that... even that we, in Adam, naturally, consigned ourselves to that, even predestined ourselves to that. This is the initial, natural human condition. However... <smile> However...

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved..."​

Paul's statement here to the Ephesians (vv.4-5) is applicable to all God's elect, those whom He chose before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1), those who have received (or will receive) God's mercy, His compassion, and thus are (or will be) born again of the Spirit. So God ~ though He did not have to do so, and would have been perfectly just not to do so ~ chose to change that predestination... for some... chose to have mercy on some.

Is it? Is salvation REALLY available to all?

Of course it is; God's grace ~ unmerited favor ~ is limitless; He can give it to whomever He wants. And does. Salvation is of the Lord.

How does one change their destiny?

Hmmm, well, from whose ~ or Whose ~ perspective? <smile> And a question back to you, Lambano... Do we predestine ourselves? Well, humanly speaking, yes... in a certain sense... <smile> See above. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Romans 9 contextually involves election for purpose NOT election for salvation.

<smile>

The purpose God elected the Jews was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

<smile>

...who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:4-5

This question comes up so, so often. Who is Israel, JLB? Who are the true Jews of God? You might remember what Paul has said in Romans 2:28-29, that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." So, then skipping to Romans 9:24 regarding God's elect, "even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."

So here again... this is a bit like the conversation between me and Lambano, here... even in talking about Jews, Paul is saying someone may be a Jew in one sense but at the same time not a Jew in a different sense. That's kind of a mouthful... <smile> Okay, to clarify, one can be a Jew ethnically, but at the same time not a Jew spiritually. And vice-versa, one can be a spiritual Jew and thus a Jew of God and part of God's Israel even while, ethnically speaking, he or she is ethnically not a Jew but a Gentile. Yes, there are and will be ethnic Jews who are also Jews of God... not only citizens of physical Israel but also made to be members of God's Israel.

So finally then in Romans 11:25-26, after speaking of being grafted in (Gentile believers) and re-grafted in (ethnic Jewish believers), Paul writes, "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... in this way all Israel will be saved."

Do you see?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

your right

And he pleases and soverignly choses that he will not force his gift on you. He wants a relationship/. So he will offer it to you. If you want it great, if you d not want it. he will move to the next person.

Sorry if the truth sounds like hate. are you a liberal?

Lets ger this straight

You said he offered the whole world salvation.

But then you claim he only died for the elect.

And now your saying no one would be in hell. Ignoring that fact. that all unbelievers will be in hell because they do not believe.

You did not read my reply carefully.

I do not believe in universalism, please re-read what I wrote.

The comment about childish is because of the you said I called God of hate. That is a false statement.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I been studying for 40 years now

I have found the truth.

You should stop listening to men, they have led you astray

Of course that is subjective on your end.

I have found the truth.

There are errors in your belief as there is in mine and every other fallible human.

Nobody has the truth perfectly.

My theology says, God gets all the glory in everything.

I am just a wretched sinner that God chose to save from hell and damnation, like every other Christian.

The real question is, why save any of us, we deserve hell and damnation.

One thing is for sure, when we get to heaven and in God's glory, none of this will even matter.

We will be too busy praising and glorifying the Lord.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Romans 9 contextually involves election for purpose NOT election for salvation.


…for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls.
Romans 9:11


The purpose God elected the Jews was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

That is the context.


who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. Romans 9:4-5

That is your opinion of course.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You did not read my reply carefully.

I do not believe in universalism, please re-read what I wrote.

Here I will post it for you

Salvation is offered to all humans, but not all humans are saved.

Again, Salvation can not be "offered to all humans" unless the penalty of sin is paid.

Unless you think they could pay for it themselves.

either way.. you just contradicted yourself

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course that is subjective on your end.


There are errors in your belief as there is in mine and every other fallible human.

Nobody has the truth perfectly.

My theology says, God gets all the glory in everything.

I am just a wretched sinner that God chose to save from hell and damnation, like every other Christian.

The real question is, why save any of us, we deserve hell and damnation.

One thing is for sure, when we get to heaven and in God's glory, none of this will even matter.

We will be too busy praising and glorifying the Lord.

Grace and peace to you.

we better hope we get to heaven.

My theology says God gets the glory in everything too

So much, that even the lost will have no excuse. because he died for them also. and offered them the same gift. But the rejected his gift.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Here I will post it for you


Again, Salvation can not be "offered to all humans" unless the penalty of sin is paid.

Unless you think they could pay for it themselves.

either way.. you just contradicted yourself

You do not understand what I am saying.

No disrespect to you, but you are quite confusing.

The gospel is preached every day, wherever it is preached sinners are hearing it, whether it be in a church or street corner, the "world" of humans are hearing it. Some will recieve Jesus Christ out of that "world" of humans when it is preached. The mant will not.

Again, Salvation can not be "offered to all humans" unless the penalty of sin is paid.

It has beem=n paid for those who believe, the elect.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

we better hope we get to heaven.

My theology says God gets the glory in everything too

So much, that even the lost will have no excuse. because he died for them also. and offered them the same gift. But the rejected his gift.

Why hope? The Lord says we can never be taken from Him.

He gave those people over to a depraved mind, thats what Romans1:18ff teaches.