The Doctrines of Grace

[ElectedbyHim]

The limited atonement peoples reject 2 Peter 3:9 because in the passage the Lord is saying thru Peter that He is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The limited atonement peoples MUST reject 2 Peter 3:9 because it does not fit in with their preconceived ideas (eisegesis) where they have been indoctrinated by false teachers to read in to scripture things the Lord does not teach in His Word.

If they accept and believe 2 Peter 3:9 then they have to acknowledge that limited atonement is false doctrine... and just like the pharisees and sadducees they cannot do that because it would cause them to fall out of favor with their false doctrine community where they value approval of false teachers / false brethren more than the approval of the Lord which is idolatry





Since it's God's will that He is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance and He tells us in 2 Peter 3:9.... then He is not the One choosing who will get born again and who is not

The limited atonement peoples just went off the rails and rejected what the Lord tells us in 2 Peter 3:9 View attachment 56182







Not according to other scripture that the limited atonement peoples have been indoctrinated to reject as they consider some verses to be lies or they otherwise twist to try and make their false doctrine seem true. Sadly, the devil has deceived the limited atonement peoples and they are blinded due to rejecting the clear teaching found in God's Word.





Duh! That does not mean the Lord is not telling every man every where to repent... which He is because He has provided salvation for all men... 2 Corinthians 4:4 tells us that the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Here again, the limited atonement peoples are rejecting what God says in His Word. Sad, very sad for the limited atonement peoples who are in darkness and don't even know it.

This is why the limited atonement peoples don't obey the great commission... why would they reach out to anybody since they wrongly believe that God will bring in the few that were created to be "elect" on His own.

No need to continue seeing how the limited atonement peoples reject the clear teaching of scripture as they follow and idolize their favorite false teachers who have indoctrinated them with doctrines of demons causing them to be blinded from what God's Word actually teaches.

Thank you for your opinion.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was raised Roman Catholic, the Lord took me out of that mess.

You will believe the Pope and all their traditions.

I’ve found that almost every person who leaves the Catholic Church leaves because of an abject ignorance of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Too many people believe in a lot pf erroneous, pre-conceived ideas about the Church that are based in falsehoods and fairy tales.

All Christians are favored and full of Grace.

Because you still sin - you are not perfected in grace.
This is whay the Bible talles us that we are BEING sanctified throughout our life (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).

G5487

χαριτόω
charitóō; contracted charitṓ, fut. charitṓsō, from cháris (G5485), grace. To grace, highly honor or greatly favor. In the NT spoken only of the divine favor, as to the virgin Mary in Luk_1:28, kecharitōménē, the perf. pass. part. sing. fem. The verb charitóō declares the virgin Mary to be highly favored, approved of God to conceive the Son of God through the Holy Spirit. The only other use of charitóō is in Eph_1:6 where believers are said to be "accepted in the beloved," i.e., objects of grace. (See huiothesía [G5206], adoption, occurring in Eph_1:5) In charitóō there is not only the impartation of God's grace, but also the adoption into God's family in imparting special favor in distinction to charízomai (G5483), to give grace, to remit, forgive.

Luk 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Highly favoured.—The verb is the same as that which is translated, “hath made us accepted “in Eph_1:6; and, on the whole, this, which is expressed in one of the marginal readings, seems the truest. The plena gratiâ of the Vulgate has no warrant in the meaning of the word.

Entering, he said to her, Greetings, you highly favored one, the Lord is with you. As appears from the expression entering (i.e., as a friend, relative, or neighbor would enter by the door) and the familiar word of salutation, namely, Greetings, from the very start the angel is trying to create an atmosphere of tranquility.

Gabriel continues, “you highly favored one.” Here Jerome’s Latin version (the Vulgate) reads gratiae plena, full of grace, not a bad rendering unless it is wrongly interpreted as if it meant, “Mary, you are filled with grace which is at your disposal to bestow on others.” The true sense is, “You are full of grace which you have received … you are in a unique sense a divinely favored person.” The immediately following context proves that this interpretation is correct, for the angel adds, “The Lord is with you.”

28. highly favoured—a word only once used elsewhere (Eph 1:6, “made accepted”): compare Lu 1:30, “Thou hast found favour with God.” The mistake of the Vulgate’s rendering, “full of grace,” has been taken abundant advantage of by the Romish Church. As the mother of our Lord, she was the most “blessed among women” in external distinction; but let them listen to the Lord’s own words. “Nay, rather blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it.”

And now, you’re simply being dishonest, as I have already addressed Jerome’s use of “Gratia plena” as a means of encapsulating the definition of Kecharitomeene, which is defined as:
“Completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result.”

It’s NOT an exact translation – NOR is it intended to be.

 

[Nancy]

Many self-professed Christians say that the Reformed/Calvinist teachings are heretical.

I have come across and iteracted with many who claim to know these doctrines but are clueless as to what they teach.

When asked for proof that the teachings are heretical, all I get is opinions and and deflection.

I have yet to se a solid argument against any of the points of TULIP.

This thread has one purpose.

Those of you who claim that these 5 points are heretical, do you also believe that the people who believe in them are not truly regenerate Christians?

If you believe that we are unregenerate, what is your proof?

In no way will I argue with anyone, nevertheless, everyone likes a healthy debate.

If you want to spew insults and hatred, please do not participate, because all that shows is your ignorance and you really have nothing of value to ad to this topic.

So I ask again.

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

Grace and peace to you.

Hello Elected,
Is it so hard to even consider that foreknowledge did play a part in Gods plan? Perhaps God only draws to His Son those that He knew would come?

I do not think you are re-generate at all! I have a nephew in his mid twenties and is on fire. He is reformed yet we still have great fellowship together!

My only real issue with TULIP is Limited atonement and Unconditional Election...John 3:16 for instance. The simplicity of the gospel rules for myself but, you are still my brother!

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL! No, but hey, think what you want, certainly.


That it is... :) But that's not the Greek word used in Luke 1:28. Rather, it's:

κεχαριτωμένη (inflected)
χαριτόωcharitoō (root)
charitoō (transliteration)

Which denotes one being given or bestowed a lofty, even a soaring, magnificent degree of favor or grace. Most every translation has it as either 'favored' or 'highly favored.' It could also be translated 'graced' or 'highly graced.' It's certainly not a title.

No - Kecharitomene means far more than that . . .

"It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action." (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.)

No, as I said, the word there is חֵן (inflected) חֵן (root) ḥēn (transliteration) Not really a contrast, except that the degree of favor or grace Mary received in being chosen to give human birth to the Son of God was much greater. Which I said earlier, and with which you agreed. As for Noah, though, God did preserve the lives of Noah and his family, so that's surely no small degree of favor or grace.

But it’s not Kecharitomene . . .

<chuckles> No, see above. Yes, Ephesians 1:6 is 'charis,' but Luke 1:28 is 'charitoō,' which is 'charis' at its base but to a much higher degree, as I said. No offense to you or any Catholic person intended... or any disparagement of Catholism... but 'kecharitomene' is... well, Catholic revisionism.

Wrong.

Whereas the root of Kecharitomene is 'charitoō'- it is used in the perfect passive participle, which makes it unique.

It's not. I have said ~ and you have agreed ~ that Mary, in being chosen to be the human mother of the Son of God, received an unmatched grace in being given that privilege and responsibility. But that does not imply or say in any way that Mary, in the sense of summation and/or salvation, was given more grace than any other human being. Mary was saved the same way you and I and every other saved and thus in-Christ human being from Adam up to now and to the end of the age.

Correct.
We are ALL saved by God’s grace through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

The Immaculate Conception posits, however, that Mary was saved at conception – that grace being applied to her prior to her birth.

Not necessarily. It means greater in degree, which does not necessarily mean more than another or any other.

Semantics.

For example - a Purple Heart, although a great honor is NOT the sane as a Medal of Honor. The latter enjoys more adulation.

But is, like I said, Catholic revisionism... not the word used in the Greek New Testament in Luke 1:28.

Wrong again . . .

From the Greek text
Luke 1:28
κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitomene)

John 1:14. Eph, 1:6
χάριτος (charis)

And so was Mary. Which she knew well, and is very clear from her psalm, which we today fondly call the Magnifcat, found in Luke 1:46-55, where she either said or sang, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for He has looked on the humble estate of His servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for He who is mighty has done great things for me..." Certainly, Mary was blessed. But she knew she was a work in progress, too, acknowledging her humble estate and the great things God had done for her... and would do in the future... as we all should.

Nowhere does the Magnificat ever imply that Mary‘s salvation was a future condition.

Mary DID have a Savior – like the rest of us. The difference is that saving grace was applied to her before she was born.

Nope. See above. God, through Luke, did not say the same thing of Mary in Luke 1:20 as He, though John, said of Jesus in John 1:14. Jesus was and is full of grace... plērēs charis, which is very different from highly favored... charitoō. It is, in fact to say ~ as John does many times in His gospel in different ways ~ that Jesus was and is God.

You’re conflating Englich with Greek.

John 1:14 says: πλήρης χάριτος (plíris cháritos) – “full of grace”.
I’ve already conceded that Luke 1:28 does NOT translate as “full of grace”.

It is merely Jerone’s attempt to encapsulate “Kecharitomene”, which is defined as:
“Completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result.”

It's a very accurate translation from the Koine Greek to English of charitoō.

And, as I gave shown repeatedly – the Koiner Greek saus “Kecharitomene” . . .

Certainly. Everything about the coming of the Lord and His life on earth, from His emptying Himself by being born in a feed box in a stable of a woman all the way to His becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross ~ for us, on our behalf (Philippians 2) was great in humility. As Isaiah (53) says:

"He had no form or majesty that we should look at Him, and no beauty that we should desire Him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces He was despised, and we esteemed Him not. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed."​

I'm quite sure Mary knew that passage very well. What a Savior He is. And she knew this was the person she was going to give birth to, which is just amazing to even think about.

Grace and peace to you.

In the end – Mary’s Immaculate Conception is NOT about the adulation of Mary – so much as it is complete and total reverence and awe of the Son she carried and bore - who is God Himself.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I’ve found that almost every person who leaves the Catholic Church leaves because of an abject ignorance of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Too many people believe in a lot pf erroneous, pre-conceived ideas about the Church that are based in falsehoods and fairy tales.

Because you still sin - you are not perfected in grace.
This is whay the Bible talles us that we are BEING sanctified throughout our life (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).

And now, you’re simply being dishonest, as I have already addressed Jerome’s use of “Gratia plena” as a means of encapsulating the definition of Kecharitomeene, which is defined as:
“Completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace, which is a perfect passive participle, indicating a completed action with a permanent result.”

It’s NOT an exact translation – NOR is it intended to be.

I’ve found that almost every person who leaves the Catholic Church leaves because of an abject ignorance of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Too many people believe in a lot pf erroneous, pre-conceived ideas about the Church that are based in falsehoods and fairy tales.

Studying the Bible reveals the error of catholocism.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Hello Elected,
Is it so hard to even consider that foreknowledge did play a part in Gods plan? Perhaps God only draws to His Son those that He knew would come?

I do not think you are re-generate at all! I have a nephew in his mid twenties and is on fire. He is reformed yet we still have great fellowship together!

I have a nephew in his mid twenties and is on fire. He is reformed yet we still have great fellowship together!

Is it so hard to even consider that foreknowledge did play a part in Gods plan? Perhaps God only draws to His Son those that He knew would come?

The Bible does not teach that.

I do not think you are re-generate at all!

Ok

I have a nephew in his mid twenties and is on fire. He is reformed yet we still have great fellowship together!

Not sure what this has to do with anything.

I have a nephew in his mid twenties and is on fire. He is reformed yet we still have great fellowship together!

How can you call me your brother when you said yo do not think I am regenerate?

 

[Nancy]

The Bible does not teach that.


Ok


Not sure what this has to do with anything.


How can you call me your brother when you said yo do not think I am regenerate?

I did not say that, I said: "I do not think you are re-generate at all!"
I will leave you be.

 

[Lambano]

My only real issue with TULIP is Limited atonement and Unconditional Election...John 3:16 for instance. The simplicity of the gospel rules for myself but, you are still my brother!

I also have questions about whether human depravity really implies the inability to trust in anything or believe in anything (such as the Gospel), or whether believers are guaranteed to persevere.

However, regarding Limited Atonement and the gospel...

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, ... (1 Corinthians 15:1-3)

If Limited Atonement is true, Paul CANNOT honestly preach his Gospel indiscriminately to the whole world because Christ did not die for those not elected before the foundation of the world. THE GOSPEL IS A LIE, and those elected for damnation SHOULD NOT BELIEVE IT.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I did not say that, I said: "I do not think you are re-generate at all!"
I will leave you be.

Apologies for any confusion.

For some odd reason, your statement did not show in my reply.

My only real issue with TULIP is Limited atonement and Unconditional Election...John 3:16 for instance. The simplicity of the gospel rules for myself but, you are still my brother!

How can you call me your brother when you said yo do not think I am regenerate?

 

[JLB]

Am I a regenerated man in Christ because I believe in the 5 points of TULIP?

No. of course not. No one is regenerated by believing in the 5 points of TULIP.


A person is born again because they hear and believe in Jesus Christ; the Gospel message of salvation.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


God loves the world of unsaved people.

God desires all men to be saved.

God sent His Son into the world that the world through Him might be saved.

• For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The way we are saved is by believing.

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
  

The condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Believe in Jesus Christ, not TULIP.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9-10



TULIP is an acronym for the five points of Calvinism, which are a summary of Reformed Christianity's soteriology:

T: Total depravity
U: Unconditional election
L: Limited atonement
I: Irresistible grace
P: Perseverance of the saints


The term TULIP originated in the 17th century during a period of theological and political turmoil in the Netherlands. Calvin's followers coined the acronym to represent their beliefs, though Calvin himself did not create it or explicitly state that these were his beliefs.


Where is Jesus mentioned in TULIP.


TULIP is a Christ-less gospel of man.

 

[Nancy]

I also have questions about whether human depravity really implies the inability to trust in anything or believe in anything (such as the Gospel), or whether believers are guaranteed to persevere.

However, regarding Limited Atonement and the gospel...

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, ... (1 Corinthians 15:1-3)

If Limited Atonement is true, Paul CANNOT honestly preach his Gospel indiscriminately to the whole world because Christ did not die for those not elected before the foundation of the world. THE GOSPEL IS A LIE, and those elected for damnation SHOULD NOT BELIEVE IT.

Hey Lamb!
Yes, I believe same as you, just did not want to go through all of the acronym so, only gave the 2 most horrific ones (IMO).
I was trying to connect with him despite my hatred of Calvinism but, he blew me off and rudely at that.
Much love brother!

 

[Nancy]

Apologies for any confusion.

For some odd reason, your statement did not show in my reply.


How can you call me your brother when you said yo do not think I am regenerate?

Thank you.

 

[Lambano]

I did not say that, I said: "I do not think you are re-generate at all!"

How can you call me your brother when you said yo do not think I am regenerate?

Just to be clear: "Regenerate" is Reformed-speak for "Born Again".

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I also have questions about whether human depravity really implies the inability to trust in anything or believe in anything (such as the Gospel), or whether believers are guaranteed to persevere.

However, regarding Limited Atonement and the gospel...

15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, ... (1 Corinthians 15:1-3)

If Limited Atonement is true, Paul CANNOT honestly preach his Gospel indiscriminately to the whole world because Christ did not die for those not elected before the foundation of the world. THE GOSPEL IS A LIE, and those elected for damnation SHOULD NOT BELIEVE IT.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed as good news to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
1 Corinthians 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I proclaimed to you as good news, unless you believed for nothing.

unless you believed in vain. By this qualifying statement, Paul recognized and called to their attention that some may have had a shallow, non-saving faith (see Mat_7:13-14, Mat_7:22-27; Mat_13:24-30, Mat_13:34-43, Mat_13:47-50; Mat_25:1-30). Some believed only as the demons believed (Jas_2:19), i.e., they were convinced the gospel was true, but had no love for God, Christ, and righteousness. True believers "hold fast" to the gospel (cf. Joh_8:31; 2Co_13:5; 1Jn_2:24; 2Jn_1:9).

 

[ElectedbyHim]

No. of course not. No one is regenerated by believing in the 5 points of TULIP.


A person is born again because they hear and believe in Jesus Christ; the Gospel message of salvation.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


God loves the world of unsaved people.

God desires all men to be saved.

God sent His Son into the world that the world through Him might be saved.

• For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The way we are saved is by believing.

• that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Believe in Jesus Christ, not TULIP.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9-10



TULIP is an acronym for the five points of Calvinism, which are a summary of Reformed Christianity's soteriology:

T: Total depravity
U: Unconditional election
L: Limited atonement
I: Irresistible grace
P: Perseverance of the saints


The term TULIP originated in the 17th century during a period of theological and political turmoil in the Netherlands. Calvin's followers coined the acronym to represent their beliefs, though Calvin himself did not create it or explicitly state that these were his beliefs.


Where is Jesus mentioned in TULIP.


TULIP is a Christ-less gospel of man.

The Doctrines of Grace only Glorify God and not man, that is why many hate them.

These five doctrines together form the doctrines of grace, so called because they summarize the salvation experience as the result of the grace of God, who acts independently of man’s will. No effort or act of man can add to the grace of God to bring about the redemption of the soul. For truly it is “by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9).

 

[Lambano]

Hey Lamb!
Yes, I believe same as you, just did not want to go through all of the acronym so, only gave the 2 most horrific ones (IMO).
I was trying to connect with him despite my hatred of Calvinism but, he blew me off and rudely at that.
Much love brother!

Hey, sis!

Don't mind me; I'm just purging some 20-year-old dross related to Calvinism. And the hermeneutic it rode in on.

 

[Ritajanice]

How can you call me your brother when you said yo do not think I am regenerate?

Regenerated means to be Born Again, we become Born Of The Spirit, it affects everyone differently, no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

The only way I knew I was God’s Child, was by Gods Living testimony his Living Holy Spirit, The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, sorry, I can’t explain how that happens, for me it was by Living divine heart revelation..which I can’t explain.

Your posts are very spiritual imo..I can understand a lot of what you say in the Spirit, if that makes sense...

 

[Lambano]

unless you believed in vain. By this qualifying statement, Paul recognized and called to their attention that some may have had a shallow, non-saving faith (see Mat_7:13-14, Mat_7:22-27; Mat_13:24-30, Mat_13:34-43, Mat_13:47-50; Mat_25:1-30). Some believed only as the demons believed (Jas_2:19), i.e., they were convinced the gospel was true, but had no love for God, Christ, and righteousness. True believers "hold fast" to the gospel (cf. Joh_8:31; 2Co_13:5; 1Jn_2:24; 2Jn_1:9).

That does not mitigate the fact that Paul lied to them when he preached the gospel, and they should not have believed him. They "believed in vain".

 

[Ritajanice]

The Doctrines of Grace only Glorify God and not man, that is why many hate them.

Amen!!

A Born Again will always Glorify the power of God, via His Living Holy Spirit...we have Gods Living testimony indwelling our heart/ spirit...without God’s Living witness, I wouldn’t know God, thats why we must be Born Again, = by supernatural divine heart revelation.

Only the Living Spirit can testify of the Living God to our heart/ spirit...that’s where we know God..in our heart/ spirit..God is Alive and Active in Spirit.

 

[Lambano]

The Doctrines of Grace only Glorify God and not man, that is why many hate them.

I've heard Reformed people use that trope quite a bit, which tells me they don't really understand why the predestination-to-damnation doctrine is such a problem for most believers.