The Doctrines of Grace

[Dan Clarkston]

I did the same for about 20 years. I tried to serve God through false doctrine, and God made it clear that I had to make a choice to either wake up or remain in deception.

Yeah,. I never believe in the OSAS fake gospel but once the Lord started teaching me about OSAS and how it is in fact another gospel... I had to quit going to the church I had been going to for years due to them teaching OSAS

They didn't always teach the OSAS heresy, but gradually started to do so and as they did more and more people in their church started engaging in sinful behavior such as getting divorced just because they were't happy and going out and getting remarried and the "pastors" were OK with this and officiated these adulterous "marriages"

This church started teaching that all future sin is already forgiven so they started engaging in sinful behavior as a result of false OSAS doctrine

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian, so how would I have a definition of total depravity when it doesn't exist, except in Satan and his demons. The Father has given all humans a measure of faith.

Here is a question for you.

Is man born basically good or in sin?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Here is a question for you.

Is man born basically good or in sin?

No one is born without sin except Jesus. Why? When we are born again of the Spirit are we still sinners or like Jesus?

 

[RedFan]

No one is born without sin except Jesus. Why? When we are born again of the Spirit are we still sinners or like Jesus?

When you were a minute old, and the umbilical cord was cut -- were you a sinner then?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

No one is born without sin except Jesus. Why? When we are born again of the Spirit are we still sinners or like Jesus?

All are born in sin.

This is partially what total depravity teaches.

Depravity is having a corrupt nature.

Sin has thoroughly corrupted every aspect of human nature. It does not imply that individuals are as sinful as they could possibly be, but rather that sin has tainted every facet of humanity, including:

Mind: Our thoughts, reasoning, and cognitive processes are all influenced by sin.
Emotions: Our feelings, desires, and affections are distorted by sin, leading to selfishness and rebellion against God.
Will: Our choices and decisions are motivated by sin, making us incapable of choosing spiritual good without divine intervention.
Heart: Our innermost being, including our affections, desires, and motivations, is corrupted by sin.
Body: Even our physical bodies, including our appetites and impulses, are affected by sin.

This pervasive corruption means that every aspect of human nature is inclined towards sin and rebellion against God.

As a result:
Humans are incapable of choosing spiritual good or responding to God’s revelation without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
All human endeavors, including moral and cultural achievements, are tainted by sin and ultimately futile in pleasing God.
The only hope for salvation lies in the sovereign grace of God, who must awaken and transform the human heart through regeneration.

Scriptural support for total depravity can be found in passages such as Genesis 6:5, Isaiah 59:3, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 53:1-3, and Romans 3:10-18, among others

 

[Dan Clarkston]

No one is born without sin except Jesus

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not be true.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this. Now note specifically:

Psalm 106:37,38; Jeremiah 19:4,5 - In sacrificing babies to idols, people shed the blood of innocent people. But if the babies inherited Adam's sin, they would be guilty and worthy of death. [cf. Jer. 32:35]

Romans 7:9 - Paul (representative of people in general) was alive before sin came, but then he died. How, if people are totally depraved since birth? (cf. v11)

Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Our fleshly nature comes from our earthly fathers (like Adam). But God is the Father of our spirits. God gives the spirit and forms it within man.

Total depravity says man is "wholly defiled in ... soul and body." Does the sinless Father in heaven give us wholly defiled, totally depraved spirits? If the spirit comes from God, not from earthly parents, how can we inherit sin from our parents?

Matthew 19:14; 18:3 - The kingdom of God belongs to those who are converted and become like little children. But if little children are totally depraved, why should we become like them? Does conversion make us totally depraved?

Jesus prayed for children and blessed them (Mark 10:14-16), but He did not baptize them. They did not need baptism, because they were acceptable just as they were. But how could this be if they were born total depraved?

The Bible teaches that sinners must be baptized to be saved (Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; 1 Pet. 3:21; Rom. 3:6,4; Gal. 3:26,27). The consequence of original sin is that babies who die without baptism are all lost eternally. But the Bible teaches that babies are innocent and need no baptism. So original sin is not be true.

Thats really bad theology.

I will not convince you with countering, so no use trying.

 

[FearTheLord]

Thats really bad theology.

I will not convince you with countering, so no use trying.

If you felt the need to call Dan's explanation "really bad theology", then it's on you to show him where you think he's in error.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When you were a minute old, and the umbilical cord was cut -- were you a sinner then?

I've heard what I would call heresy that even after we are born again of the Spirit we are still sinners. That false belief is from the "T" in TULIP. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

 

[RedFan]

I've heard what I would call heresy that even after we are born again of the Spirit we are still sinners. That false belief is from the "T" in TULIP. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

But my question was, when you were a minute old, and the umbilical cord was cut -- were you a sinner then?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If original sin is true, then babies are born guilty of sin, totally depraved, destined for eternal punishment. All passages already studied disprove this.

Some are. Why?

1 Corinthians 7
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Deuteronomy 3:6
And we utterly destroyed them, as we did to Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children of every city.

Judges 21:10
So the congregation sent out there twelve thousand of their most valiant men, and commanded them, saying, “Go and strike the inhabitants of Jabesh Gilead with the edge of the sword, including the women and children.

1 Samuel 22:19
Also Nob, the city of the priests, he struck with the edge of the sword, both men and women, children and nursing infants, oxen and donkeys and sheep—with the edge of the sword.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

But my question was, when you were a minute old, and the umbilical cord was cut -- were you a sinner then?

My parents were Christians, so no. But it wasn't that I was sinning sins unto death, but sins not unto death that my parents beliefs sanctified. Read my post above to Dan.

 

[RedFan]

1 Corinthians 7
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

Ah. So justification is genetically transmitted.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ah. So justification is genetically transmitted.

It only applies to children according to Paul. It has nothing to do with human genetics. Otherwise, all of the children of Israel would be saved.

 

[RedFan]

It only applies to children according to Paul. It has nothing to do with human genetics. Otherwise, all of the children of Israel would be saved.

So, why are the infant children of Christians spared the taint of original sin?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

So, why are the infant children of Christians spared the taint of original sin?

Because one of their parents are sanctified. But the Christian parent doesn't sanctify the unbelieving spouse.

 

[RedFan]

Because one of their parents are sanctified. But the Christian parent doesn't sanctify the unbelieving spouse.

I'm not getting it. One parent is Christian, therefore the child is born free of original sin. I'll have to ask Paul about that one when I see him beyond the Peary Gates some day!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not getting it. One parent is Christian, therefore the child is born free of original sin. I'll have to ask Paul about that one when I see him beyond the Peary Gates some day!

This is only until the child reaches an age where they can go against their conscience and commit a willful sin unto death.

 

[RedFan]

This is only until the child reaches an age where they can go against their conscience and commit a willful sin unto death.

No doubt, but that doesn't interest me at the moment. What interests me is the notion that mankind inherits Adam's sin simply by dint of being born, unless one parent was born again -- in which case Adam's inheritance is obviated for the baby. Fascinating.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No doubt, but that doesn't interest me at the moment. What interests me is the notion that mankind inherits Adam's sin simply by dint of being born, unless one parent was born again -- in which case Adam's inheritance is obviated for the baby. Fascinating.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.