The Doctrine of Purgatory in Catholic Biblical Perspective

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Marymog

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I'm sorry, what theory?
Hi David,

Your theory that Scripture interprets Scripture and is plainly understood and all you have to do is read Scripture to ascertain the Truth.....that is until you get corrected later on. ;)

If Scritpure is soooooo plainly understood then why have men been arguing about this "plainly understood" book for 2,000 years?

Hint: 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Timothy 4:3-4
 
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BreadOfLife

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LOL and men who assume Gods nature and Likeness Will be God...right? LOL
Perhaps you think that is so, since you have a human Holy Father, and human Holy Mother.

NOT Scriptural! Oh, but NOT to forget...you are against the Limits of Scripture. You can add in whatever. :eek:
aww i see your still posting your Child like remarks ---- HE took on human form but see if he was to fully become a human being as you suggest . then is his remains would have still remained in the tomb
Psalm 16:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Hebrews 4:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
1 Corinthians 15:49-51 King James Version (KJV)
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, see scriptures disagree with your catholic teaching ..why is you never post any thing but what the catholic teach. you never back anything up with scripture .. the old saying if you cant run with the big DOGS ..stay ON THE FRONT PORCH...Go eat your puppy chow with Milk ,, strong meat belongs to men.. milk belongs to newborn babes
Funny how ignorant minds think alike . . .

You both keep foolishly referring to this as a “Catholic” belief or MY flawed interpretation.

This has been the constant teaching of Christ’s Church for 2000 years and was a point of faith that was NOT contested by the Protestant Fathers. This is just ONE of MANY heresies surrounding the nature of God and the Deity and Humanity of Christ.

I’ve even produced several Protestant scholars on the matter – and they ALL agree: Jesus is Fully Human and Fully God. He is in Heaven BODILY in His glorified Body.

Virtually EVERY heresy begins with a perversion of the nature of God – and yours is no different . . .
 

reformed1689

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So you are fallible.....Which means I should not trust anything you say about Scripture.
No, it means you should test what I say against Scripture. Just like testing what the church is saying against Scripture.

If your "corrected thinking" is different than what has been taught for 2,000 years....whom should I believe? You, the admitted fallible man?
You should believe Scripture. The church is also led by fallible men.
 

Marymog

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No, it means you should test what I say against Scripture. Just like testing what the church is saying against Scripture.


You should believe Scripture. The church is also led by fallible men.
Hi David,

Other Christian men and I have tested against Scripture what you have said. According to us you have failed that test. So who is right? You or those other men. After all, you have already admitted you are fallible.

Since the Church is led by fallible men that means we will never know the Truth of Scripture since it takes man to interpret Scripture. Why is God not allowing man to know the Truth of Scripture?
 

reformed1689

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Other Christian men and I have tested against Scripture what you have said. According to us you have failed that test. So who is right? You or those other men. After all, you have already admitted you are fallible.
No, you tested it against the ECF, not Scripture. You regularly take Scripture out of context, or add things to Scripture with Catholic teaching that is not actually in Scripture. How Should We Read the Early Church Fathers?
 

Marymog

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No, you tested it against the ECF, not Scripture. You regularly take Scripture out of context, or add things to Scripture with Catholic teaching that is not actually in Scripture. How Should We Read the Early Church Fathers?
And you test it against YOUR previous belief which leads you to be corrected at times. Which means your correction could be corrected again in the future. But since you are admittedly fallible you will never know if the correction of your correction is right. ;)

Do you EVER take Scripture out of context or add things to it? Or is it just the other fallible men of Christianity that do that?

Curious Mary
 

Taken

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Funny how ignorant minds think alike . . .

Funny how you didn't have to think, but simply were told by Gentile men what to believe.

You both keep foolishly referring to this as a “Catholic” belief or MY flawed interpretation.

You are the one that claims the Catholic church was the first Christian church, so why complain when they get the credit?

This has been the constant teaching of Christ’s Church for 2000 years

Actually IF that was what Jesus taught His Jewish disciples, and They Taught Jesus IS a Human, why is it, they never mentioned it?

I’ve even produced several Protestant scholars on the matter – and they ALL agree: Jesus IS Fully Human and Fully God. He is in Heaven BODILY in His glorified Body.

And why do you think what some Gentile men I do not know, would be a greater influence in my thinking, than my own teacher, whom I DO KNOW?

That ^^ Applies to YOU...not me.

Virtually EVERY heresy begins with a perversion ....

And it didn't take long FOR Gentile men, to take over the man-made Church Jewish men established according to Gods Word....and pervert what Jesus' chosen disciples taught.

Thanks for sharing that tid-bit, and how long that has been occuring. Not news to me, but reveals alot about you.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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Actually IF that was what Jesus taught His Jewish disciples, and They Taught Jesus IS a Human, why is it, they never mentioned it?
Sure they did – and I’ve already shown you this about a DOZEN times:

Heb. 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Not sure which part of that you can’t understand . . .
And why do you think what some Gentile men I do not know, would be a greater influence in my thinking, than my own teacher, whom I DO KNOW?

That ^^ Applies to YOU...not me.

And it didn't take long FOR Gentile men, to take over the man-made Church Jewish men established according to Gods Word....and pervert what Jesus' chosen disciples taught.

Thanks for sharing that tid-bit, and how long that has been occuring. Not news to me, but reveals alot about you.

Glory to God,
Taken
The man-made Church Jewish men established”??

The Church was established by Christ (Matt. 16:18), who is GOD.

Do your homework . .
 

Taken

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You are kidding right?

Obviously we are in disagreement...
So instead of calling me dishonest, giving me commentary links and wondering if I am kidding for you to identify your precise source...Why beat around the bush?
From the onset I asked you to qive your Scriptural verification that teaches JESUS IS a human man.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

shnarkle

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I did read the entire post. That is why I asked from whom did you receive this theory because it is a theory (Definition of THEORY)

Is it YOUR theory or are you repeating the teachings/theory of someone else?

I'm presenting some blatant straightforward facts. When Jesus says, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", do you interpret him to be referring to baking bread? His own disciples did, so perhaps you are in good company here. Regardless, to what do you owe your theory that Jesus has a problem with baking bread rather than using the figure Hypocastases?

I am basing my position on the fact that Christ's use of figurative language is not only pervasive throughout the gospel narratives, but that it is also a widely accepted fact by most, if not all Christians. Given this FACT, why do you have such a problem addressing the fact that this is the figure he is using in this case? If you believe he is using a different figure of speech, which one, and why? If you believe he is speaking literally, please refute why he can't be using the figure Hendiadys.

If your argument stands on their own merits then that means that you believe what you wrote is not a theory

Correct. Now that you're on the same page, please document why you think he can't be using this figure of speech.

and that it is an undeniable fact.

Correct. I'm not engaging in a debate to prove that my position is easily refuted.

Do you believe what you wrote is an undeniable fact?

Curious Mary

I'm not presenting beliefs. I'm presenting facts which you are continuing to ignore. If you believe in the golden rule, I can only assume this is how you prefer to be treated as well.

Once again, here are the facts for your edification. If you see any reason why this position can be refuted, please be so kind as to correct this position using scripture and the facts if at all possible.

Hendiadys; or, Two for One. Two words used, but only one thing meant.

Hen-di'-a-dys, from hen, "one", dia, "by", dis "two" (From duo, two) Literally, one by means of two. Two words employed, but only one thing, or idea, intended. One of the two words expresses the thing, and the other (of synonymous, or even different, signification, not a second thing or idea) intensifies it by being changed (if a noun) into an adjective of the superlative degree, which is, by this means, made especially emphatic.

The figure is truly oriental, and exceedingly picturesque. It is found in Latin as well as in Hebrew and Greek, and is very frequently used both in the Old and New Testaments.

The two words are of the same parts of speech: i.e., two nouns (or two verbs) always joined together by the conjunction "and". The two nouns are always in the same case.

Some examples:

"And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof" Gen.4:4: i.e. he brought the firstlings of this flock, yes--and the fattest ones too, or the fattest firstlings of his flock, with emphasis on "fattest".

"Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven"Gen.14:24: i.e. brimstone, yes- and burning brimstone too; or, simply "burning brimstone" with emphasis on "burning"

They "buried him in Ramah and his own city" 1 Sam.28:3: i.e., in Ramah, yes-even in his own city; or, in his own city, Ramah.

"Of fame and of glory" 1 Chron. 22:5; i.e., of glorious fame
"I love the Lord, because he hath heard my voice and my supplications" Ps. 66:1; i.e., my supplicating voice with emphasis on "supplicating".

"I am not able to endure your iniquity and assembly" Isa 1:13; i.e., your iniquity, yes-your iniquitous assemblies.

"Execute ye judgment and righteousness" Jer. 22:3; i.e., execute judgment, yes- and righteous judgment too.

"A day of trumpet and alarm" Zeph.1:16; i.e., an alarming trumpet.

"He shall baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire". First observe that there are no articles. e.g. "en pneumati hagio kai puri" with Holy Spirit and fire, i.e. "with burning purifying spirit" Not two things, but one: Judgment!

The contrast was with John's baptism which was with water which mingled the chaff with the wheat. The new baptism is not like that. It separates the chaff from the wheat by burning it up as the Baptist points out: "whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into his garner: but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

"Except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit."Jn.3:5; Again, there is no article to either of the two nouns.

That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear from verses 6 and 8, where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned.

Christ is speaking to Nicodemus of "earthly things" (vs. 12). And as "a master in Israel", he knew perfectly well the prophecy of Ezek. 36: 25-27 concerning the kingdom. Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, The Lord had declared: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean...And I will put my spirit within you, " etc.

The cleansing of that day is not to be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Hence, only one thing is meant: "Except a man be begotten of water, yes- and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". That spiritual water stands, by another figure (Metonymy), for the Holy Spirit Himself: as is clear from John 7:38,39: "water- (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...)".

Therefore, there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water- but to that baptism of the Spirit which is the one indispensable condition of entering into the kingdom of God; a moral sphere, which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.
 

Taken

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Sure they did – and I’ve already shown you this about a DOZEN times:

Heb. 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Not sure which part of that you can’t understand . . .

Already told you...I can understand your '70's Version ...I do not agree with the changing of the words and meaning...as Scripture reveals.

[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,

Your version declares He is A HUMAN. And your version declares He is LIKE ALL Humans.
He is neither.

The man-made Church Jewish men established”??


The Church was established by Christ (Matt. 16:18),...

Jesus' CHURCH is NOT man-made.
Jesus' CHURCH is WITHIN men.
Man-made churches are gathering places and buildings, MEN build, erect, establish...to teach about God and Praise and Worship the Lord God.

Jews began the first man-made church IN Antioch, and where Jewish followers of Jesus' teachings were first called Christians.

Gentiles joined in WITH THE JEWS in following Jesus' teachings, and began calling themselves catholics and AFTER Apostal Peter's Death, the Gentiles calling themselves catholics, GAVE Peter a TITLE (without his knowledge). And the Gentiles calling themselves have subsequently built man-made churches, and follow after the teachings of their Elected holy father.

... who is GOD.

Your Human Jesus.

Do your homework . .

Already have. You seem oblivious your own religious sect has erected buildings called man-made churches.

Get a dictionary.

:eek:
 

Marymog

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I'm presenting some blatant straightforward facts. When Jesus says, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", do you interpret him to be referring to baking bread? His own disciples did, so perhaps you are in good company here. Regardless, to what do you owe your theory that Jesus has a problem with baking bread rather than using the figure Hypocastases?

I am basing my position on the fact that Christ's use of figurative language is not only pervasive throughout the gospel narratives, but that it is also a widely accepted fact by most, if not all Christians. Given this FACT, why do you have such a problem addressing the fact that this is the figure he is using in this case? If you believe he is using a different figure of speech, which one, and why? If you believe he is speaking literally, please refute why he can't be using the figure Hendiadys.
You are basing your position on who's interpretation of Scripture? Yours or someone else's?
 

shnarkle

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You are basing your position on who's interpretation of Scripture? Yours or someone else's?
I am basing my position on the fact that this figure is being employed. Refute it or concede the fact. This isn't complicated.

"Water and Spirit" means spiritual water by the figure Hendiadys. The next few verses confirm this fact by pointing out that what is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit. He's referring exclusively to the spirit in vs. 8, yet by another figure, i.e. Epaniplosis or Encircling for emphasis.

"The Spirit breathes where he will, you hear his voice, but you know not where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit"

Again, it 7:38,39 John clearly says, "But this spake he of the SPIRIT". This is the interpretation of the author himself. What more do you need? What other interpretation could possibly supersede the person who actually wrote it? When he points out that water will gush forth from him, and the AUTHOR himself points out that he is referring to the Spirit, what other interpretation makes more sense???
 

Marymog

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I am basing my position on the fact that this figure is being employed. Refute it or concede the fact. This isn't complicated.

"Water and Spirit" means spiritual water by the figure Hendiadys. The next few verses confirm this fact by pointing out that what is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit. He's referring exclusively to the spirit in vs. 8, yet by another figure, i.e. Epaniplosis or Encircling for emphasis.

"The Spirit breathes where he will, you hear his voice, but you know not where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit"

Again, it 7:38,39 John clearly says, "But this spake he of the SPIRIT". This is the interpretation of the author himself. What more do you need? What other interpretation could possibly supersede the person who actually wrote it? When he points out that water will gush forth from him, and the AUTHOR himself points out that he is referring to the Spirit, what other interpretation makes more sense???
If it is a "fact" then how can I refute it ;)

Why is your "fact" that this figure is being employed at odds with other men who teach something different? Is your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

Isn't it a "fact" that the entire chapter speaks of water baptism BEFORE and AFTER His statement in John 3:5? Why would He all of a sudden speak out of context? Jesus was a very good teacher. Your theory, that he went out of context in the middle of his dialogue, suggest he wasn't.
 

shnarkle

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If it is a "fact" then how can I refute it ;)

You can't, and the proof is in that self evident fact. The fact that all of your posts are simply dancing around my posts rather than addressing my arguments is an additional testament to that fact.

Why is your "fact" that this figure is being employed at odds with other men who teach something different?

There are probably numerous reasons, but ignorance is probably at the forefront of them all.

Is your interpretation of Scripture infallible?

I just presented you with the AUTHOR'S interpretation. What more do you want? Of course it's infallible.

Isn't it a "fact" that the entire chapter speaks of water baptism BEFORE and AFTER His statement in John 3:5?

No. There's nothing about water baptism before. Afterwards, John distinguishes between himself and Christ. He does the same thing in Matthew's account as well:

" I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Mt. 3:11

Here again, the author is using the same figure. Christ baptizes with a burning (or purifying) Spirit. No water necessary or even mentioned in the first place.


Why would He all of a sudden speak out of context?

He's not.

Jesus was a very good teacher.

This is beside the point. if you're going to suggest that Israel repented, then you're deluded. His ability to teach isn't in question here, and it doesn't prove your point either.

Your theory, that he went out of context in the middle of his dialogue, suggest he wasn't.

Repeated Strawman argument. I never claimed he is leaving the context, nor have you proven this nonsense. Back it up with evidence. Better yet, address my argument.
 

BreadOfLife

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Already told you...I can understand your '70's Version ...I do not agree with the changing of the words and meaning...as Scripture reveals.

[17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,

Your version declares He is A HUMAN. And your version declares He is LIKE ALL Humans.
He is neither.

Jesus' CHURCH is NOT man-made.
Jesus' CHURCH is WITHIN men.
Man-made churches are gathering places and buildings, MEN build, erect, establish...to teach about God and Praise and Worship the Lord God.

Jews began the first man-made church IN Antioch, and where Jewish followers of Jesus' teachings were first called Christians.

Gentiles joined in WITH THE JEWS in following Jesus' teachings, and began calling themselves catholics and AFTER Apostal Peter's Death, the Gentiles calling themselves catholics, GAVE Peter a TITLE (without his knowledge). And the Gentiles calling themselves have subsequently built man-made churches, and follow after the teachings of their Elected holy father.

Your Human Jesus.

Already have. You seem oblivious your own religious sect has erected buildings called man-made churches.

Get a dictionary.
And there you go again thinking that the NT was written in King James English – it wasn’t.
It was written in Koine Greek.

Funny thing about Scripture – you must read it iin CONTEXT or it doesn’t make sense.
YOU have a bad habit of cherry-picking verses to formulate your perverted doctrines. Heb. 2:17 states plainly that Christ had to be made like us “IN EVERY WAY.” No “like unto” or any other Old English expression.

Now – when you take this verse and read it in CONTEXT with the other verses about His humanity – like 1 Tim. 2:5-6, your ENTIRE argument circles the drain.
1 Tim. 2:5-6
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the MAN Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.


The LITERAL translation of the verse goes like this:
1 Tim. 2:5-6
For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself HUMAN, who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.

Here is the original GREEK text:
1 Tim. 2:5 (Greek)
εἷς γὰρ θεός, εἷς καὶ μεσίτης θεοῦ καὶ ἀνθρώπων, ἄνθρωπος Χριστὸς Ἰησοῦς, ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων, τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις.

The bolded word above means: HUMAN.

There goes your FALSE teaching about Jesus NOT being a human because the inspired Word of God says that He IS.

Refute THAT . . .
 

reformed1689

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Obviously we are in disagreement...
So instead of calling me dishonest, giving me commentary links and wondering if I am kidding for you to identify your precise source...Why beat around the bush?
From the onset I asked you to qive your Scriptural verification that teaches JESUS IS a human man.

Glory to God,
Taken
THE WORD BECAME FLESH!!!! John 1:14 This is BASIC Christianity.
 

Marymog

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You can't, and the proof is in that self evident fact. The fact that all of your posts are simply dancing around my posts rather than addressing my arguments is an additional testament to that fact.

There are probably numerous reasons, but ignorance is probably at the forefront of them all.

I just presented you with the AUTHOR'S interpretation. What more do you want? Of course it's infallible.

No. There's nothing about water baptism before. Afterwards, John distinguishes between himself and Christ. He does the same thing in Matthew's account as well:

" I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Mt. 3:11

Here again, the author is using the same figure. Christ baptizes with a burning (or purifying) Spirit. No water necessary or even mentioned in the first place.

He's not.

This is beside the point. if you're going to suggest that Israel repented, then you're deluded. His ability to teach isn't in question here, and it doesn't prove your point either.


Repeated Strawman argument. I never claimed he is leaving the context, nor have you proven this nonsense. Back it up with evidence. Better yet, address my argument.
I see.....any one that disagrees with YOUR interpretation is ignorant o_O

AND you are infallible....o_O

Thank you for your time....