If Christian Universalism is true, what's the point in evangelism?

[amigo de christo]

The confusion is "what is predestined"...

So, the confused Calvinist says "being born again is predestined".. yet the NT does not say you are predestined to be born again.

It says you are born again "in CHRIST" to then be "conformed" and "Adopted".

Calvinists can't see this... because they are trained by a false doctrine, to not see it.
They can only see "predestined" instead of "Fore-Knowledge"..so, that is their disconnect that Calvin causes in their mind.

Paul says of these.... "WHO...has bewitched you, that you no longer obey the truth"..

A.) John Calvinism is the "WHO".

now lets do that version through the lens of calvin shall we .
JESUS wept , OH HOW YE WERE PREDESTINED TO WRATH . Before you were born it was determined you would REJECT ME .
I DONT SEEM to see JESUS SAYING THAT .
DO YOU .
what i see HIM saying was , HOW OFTEN I would have GATHERED YOU only YE WOULD NOT . sounds a lot different dont it .

 

[amigo de christo]

The confusion is "what is predestined"...

So, the confused Calvinist says "being born again is predestined".. yet the NT does not say you are predestined to be born again.

It says you are born again "in CHRIST" to then be "conformed" and "Adopted".

Calvinists can't see this... because they are trained by a false doctrine, to not see it.
They can only see "predestined" instead of "Fore-Knowledge"..so, that is their disconnect that Calvin causes in their mind.

Paul says of these.... "WHO...has bewitched you, that you no longer obey the truth"..

A.) John Calvinism is the "WHO".

Follow calvin to perditoin
or FOLLOW CHRIST .
follow the RCC to perditon
or FOLLOW CHRIST
follow the jw , mormon and etc to perditon
or FOLLOW CHRIST
FOLLOW ANTI CHRISTS INTEFAITH which will merge all the decieved as one TO PERDITION
or FOLLOW CHRIST .

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

worry not my friend . We cannot produce a conversion . yes you heard me correct .
What we must do is speak the truth . whether warning or etc .
The problem with man is HE keeps thinking what must i do , how can i win
Maybe i should say this , maybe i should not say that .
SPEAK TRUTH . ONLY GOD can give the increase .
The sooner folks learn that the better off they would have been . TOO MANY MEN say this or that
runs off people and we need to preach it like this and omit that .
TO be honest i would not heed a word outta they mouth . Seeker friendly came of satan
and it was meant for one reason . GET THE CHURCH NUMBERS UP , GROW THE CHURCH
and it was all modeled after What pleased man to get man into the church .
YOU BET folks who are in sin DO NOT want to hear one reminder about a GOD who will hold them accountable to their sin .
THEY RATHER HEED A god that overlooks their sin and just says all is well .
I dont heed a word uttered from their lips . But if we want to seem some examples of evanglising
I suggest we all look at HOW JESUS did things and later teh apostels did things .
Believe you me they did warn and they ALSO gave the people the SOLUTOIN , the ANSWER .
ANYTIME one says OH I LEFT GOD ,and then makes any excuse for why they did
ALWAYS REMEMBER , Folks leave GOD or wont come to GOD for one reason . YOU CAN BET ITS RELATED TO THEIR SIN
and what they desired . AND IF MEN spoke against it , WELL they didnt want to hear that kind of speech .

Amigo, if you don't want to be pastoral with unbelievers and want to preach the whole truth to them, go ahead. We will all be called to account by God someday for our approaches to people. I prefer to teach people with the parts of the truth that they can handle at the stage of spiritual development where they are. I guess that's the teacher in me.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

now lets do that version through the lens of calvin shall we .
JESUS wept , OH HOW YE WERE PREDESTINED TO WRATH . Before you were born it was determined you would REJECT ME .
I DONT SEEM to see JESUS SAYING THAT .
DO YOU .
what i see HIM saying was , HOW OFTEN I would have GATHERED YOU only YE WOULD NOT . sounds a lot different dont it .

What??

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Follow calvin to perditoin
or FOLLOW CHRIST .
follow the RCC to perditon
or FOLLOW CHRIST
follow the jw , mormon and etc to perditon
or FOLLOW CHRIST
FOLLOW ANTI CHRISTS INTEFAITH which will merge all the decieved as one TO PERDITION
or FOLLOW CHRIST .

Calvinists do not follow Calvin, but we have discovered that his writings are very biblical. Therefore, we are Calvinists. We don't idolize him; we criticize his actions when he was wrong, for example, when he agreed with the death of Servetus.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Man cannot produce a conversion . so man needs to hush his carnal wisdom
and simply speak the truth .
Bruce , do NOT see this as an attack . But for decades now
leaders have taught us HOW to evanglize and yet its all been based carnal intellect .
OH if we say this , if we dont say that ,
SPEAK THE TRUTH baby . Who so ever hears amen .
I invite us to look at HOW peter preached
or paul , or others , OR JESUS HIMSELF .
THEY SURE DIDNT seem so darn worried about what MIGHT OFFEND man .
IN fact allow me to bring you a reminder
about what JESUS told his own desciples WHEN THEY SEEM A BIT TOO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT OFFENDED MAN .
BUT LORD dont you know this SAYING OFFENDED THEM .
What did JESUs say next .
OH DEAR , i better tone it down . MAYBE i should say more encouraging things
MAYBE i should try and make them feel more comfortable .
NOPE .
HE said leave them be they the blind leading the blind and every plant that my FATHER has not planted
will be rooted up .
NOT YOU , NOT ME , NO MAN can make A conversion . BUT WE SURE CAN SPEAK TRUTH
and who so ever hears , WELL THANK GOD THEY DID . who so ever rejects , THE TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM .

No offense taken, amigo! I was just objecting to the thought that we should tell unbelieving seekers about God's election of people to be saved before God's creation of anyone, which is a biblical truth that is best reserved for the maturing Christian. That's all. Share the rest of the gospel (sin, salvation, and service or guilt, grace, and gratitude).

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

worry not my friend . We cannot produce a conversion . yes you heard me correct .
What we must do is speak the truth . whether warning or etc .
The problem with man is HE keeps thinking what must i do , how can i win
Maybe i should say this , maybe i should not say that .
SPEAK TRUTH . ONLY GOD can give the increase .
The sooner folks learn that the better off they would have been . TOO MANY MEN say this or that
runs off people and we need to preach it like this and omit that .
TO be honest i would not heed a word outta they mouth . Seeker friendly came of satan
and it was meant for one reason . GET THE CHURCH NUMBERS UP , GROW THE CHURCH
and it was all modeled after What pleased man to get man into the church .
YOU BET folks who are in sin DO NOT want to hear one reminder about a GOD who will hold them accountable to their sin .
THEY RATHER HEED A god that overlooks their sin and just says all is well .
I dont heed a word uttered from their lips . But if we want to seem some examples of evanglising
I suggest we all look at HOW JESUS did things and later teh apostels did things .
Believe you me they did warn and they ALSO gave the people the SOLUTOIN , the ANSWER .
ANYTIME one says OH I LEFT GOD ,and then makes any excuse for why they did
ALWAYS REMEMBER , Folks leave GOD or wont come to GOD for one reason . YOU CAN BET ITS RELATED TO THEIR SIN
and what they desired . AND IF MEN spoke against it , WELL they didnt want to hear that kind of speech .

It depends on how the gospel is presented. If we use Christian cliches like sin, Lord, salvation, etc., the modern, post-modern person will not relate to them. On the other hand, if we use words like "imperfections" instead of "transgressions" or "iniquities" (they know that they're not perfect); describe Jesus as the Rescuer and Ruler instead of Savior and Lord; and say that our Father is all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere, and eternal instead of the Latin-derived words: sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent King. It's just a matter of effective communication, because they mean the same.

Also, post-modern people relate more to stories than to concepts. Therefore, we need to witness to them with the times during which God worked in our lives and also what we believe with words to which they will relate. I guess we could describe Jesus as Lord in Canada or England, since they have ruling lords and a king there. Of course, their king isn't very powerful at all.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

--- PARODY ---

Christian: God is love!
Prospect: What about the "hell" thing?
Christian: Oh, that's God's justice.
Prospect: How is that justice?
Christian: God has two sides.
Prospect: You mean he is two-faced, as in untrustworthy.
Christian: No, he is totally trustworthy.
Prospect: But aren't I currently in danger of hell?
Christian: Yes, but we can fix that?
Prospect: Fix it? Why is it even there if God is trustworthy?
Christian: Put your trust in Jesus and God will protect you.
Prospect: So, Jesus died to save me from God?
Christian: Well... I suppose he did...
Prospect: Are you nuts?

]

A Christian can have much better answers than those ones.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Christ preached on both , as did paul and others .
Very good and very wise is it to always behold BOTH the Goodness and the Severity of GOD .
Knowing the Terror of GOD we persaude men .
Show both . show how wonderful it will be for the beleiver and how deadly for all who denied Him .
Focus on the Coming of the LORD , focus on the preaching of the gospel .

I think the best approach to unbelievers is to listen to their experiences with Christians and churches and to taylor our approach to meet their spiritual needs. After a long friendship with them during which I build their trust along with my witnessing, I would present the gospel to the modern person who does not have a church background with the fact that we're all imperfect and that since God is perfect and expects us to be perfect, we are guilty before our just Judge, who created us. We have followed Adam and Eve's lead in their rebellion against God, our Judge.

However, our perfect Father-God himself loved us so much that he sent the willing second Person of God to become Jesus, who was the God-man in order for him to suffer, die a horrible death to become our Substitute, and to give true believers his Father's "not-guilty" verdict and to take our "guilty" verdict.

But the truth doesn't end there. Parts of three days after Jesus died, he came back to permanent life and was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. His return to life means that new believers receive new life that enables them to make progress in becoming more like God, a lifelong process.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

What's the point of evangelism if everyone will automatically be saved?

These two questions show a common misunderstanding about Christian Universalism.
(Universal Reconciliation, Universal Restoration, Ultimate Redemption, UR)

These quotes are from the website Universalist Musings.

"When this question is raised, in most cases it’s almost as though the objector is assuming that without the threat of eternal damnation there would be no point in following Jesus or living in obedience to his calling for us. This brings to light the problematic fact that many infernalists seem to view Jesus merely (or at least chiefly) as a ‘get out of hell free’ card, so to speak—remove the real possibility of everlasting hell, and these individuals would apparently say ‘forget Jesus.’ This, of course, is not a proper understanding of gospel motivation."

The reason we ought to follow Jesus and proclaim the gospel without delay, is not primarily for fear of damnation as a consequence if we don’t, but rather because Jesus is inherently worthy of our devotion and obedience, and the gospel is inherently good news worth proclaiming!"

"... have you ever considered why it is that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment has, as a matter of practical fact, failed to motivate most people to turn to Christ, and has likewise failed to motivate most Christians to consistently evangelize? Could this be because most of us, at least deep-down, recognize that it is an inherently absurd and incoherent concept, and thus, is a threat that we recognize does not deserve to be taken seriously?" Source (question 12 pp 3, 4, 7)

Discussion questions:
- Is there any reason to follow Jesus if the threat of hell in the afterlife is removed?
- Is there any value in following Jesus in the here and now?
- What effect might the removal of the threat of hell from the gospel message have?
- Would anyone choose to follow Jesus without the threat of hell?

[

That's all rubbish !

The Universality of the Church.
The word Catholic means universal and is one of the for marks of the Church.
This mark ot note of the Church springs from the very essence of the Church itself, for the Church is a society which Christ organised to apply fruits of his death on Calvary to all mankind.

It is not set aside on it's own say ? as a side dish. It is set for the whole world to come to Christ Jesus in fact, for their is no other door to come to Christ Jesus in fact.

 

[David in NJ]

If you threaten unbelievers with hell and they come into the church as members, you get people who have a human terror of God, not ones who have a godly respect, reverence, and awe of him. The latter people are true believers, not the former ones. So, you have false conversions.

Why did JESUS threaten people with Hell???

 

[St. SteVen]

Why did JESUS threaten people with Hell???

Right. Good question.
The free gift of salvation as spiritual extortion. Believe or burn. An offer you can't refuse.
God, our loving heavenly Father, presented as a gangster godfather.
The Good News, or the BAD news?

[

 

[Marvelloustime]

Brother @amigo de christo is spotted!

 

[amigo de christo]

Amigo, if you don't want to be pastoral with unbelievers and want to preach the whole truth to them, go ahead. We will all be called to account by God someday for our approaches to people. I prefer to teach people with the parts of the truth that they can handle at the stage of spiritual development where they are. I guess that's the teacher in me.

With unbelievers indeed .
Be encouraged my friend . Anyone can feel free to examine what i say .
you will always have seen its often always focused on the simple truth . There really is nothing complex
at all about my message . The dire need TO BELEIVE , to ensure one follows THE JESUS and not another jesus
the reminder about always being in scripture . You wont find me teaching deep hard to be understood concepts .
Just follow me around a bit and you will soon see how simple i keep it .
Reminding all that satan himself can use words like love , but to beware his version .
You see many within christendom have long abandoned the biblical pattern .
They see it as being judgmental and non loving TO CORRECT brethren in error .
Rather than reminders that say LET not inquity once be named
they often use phrases like oh we sin thousands of times a day , we all sinners , stop judging .
That didnt bode well on christendom my friend . IT allowed leaven to remain and that there leaven
FILLED up the places till now we have the greatest lie of all being taught and even believed .
The lie that says the christain truth is no better than any other religoins
giving the idea that all religoins are headed to GOD if they just lovey dooed . BUT THAT IS A LIE .
For there is none that are good and ALL NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
But as i often do say we better make sure its JESUS the CHRIST and not another jesus invented by men .

 

[Marvelloustime]

With unbelievers indeed .
Be encouraged my friend . Anyone can feel free to examine what i say .
you will always have seen its often always focused on the simple truth . There really is nothing complex
at all about my message . The dire need TO BELEIVE , to ensure one follows THE JESUS and not another jesus
the reminder about always being in scripture . You wont find me teaching deep hard to be understood concepts .
Just follow me around a bit and you will soon see how simple i keep it .
Reminding all that satan himself can use words like love , but to beware his version .
You see many within christendom have long abandoned the biblical pattern .
They see it as being judgmental and non loving TO CORRECT brethren in error .
Rather than reminders that say LET not inquity once be named
they often use phrases like oh we sin thousands of times a day , we all sinners , stop judging .
That didnt bode well on christendom my friend . IT allowed leaven to remain and that there leaven
FILLED up the places till now we have the greatest lie of all being taught and even believed .
The lie that says the christain truth is no better than any other religoins
giving the idea that all religoins are headed to GOD if they just lovey dooed . BUT THAT IS A LIE .
For there is none that are good and ALL NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
But as i often do say we better make sure its JESUS the CHRIST and not another jesus invented by men .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

Why did JESUS threaten people with Hell???

Many would accuse JESUS of FORCING RELIGOIN down the throats of men .
He made sure to let the peoples know of the deadly dangers of rejecting HIM .
As EVEN HE reminded them
HE who is not WITH ME is AGAINST ME
and HE who is against me shall SCATTER .
YE shall DIE in your sins , for if you BELEIVE not that i am HE
you WILL DIE in your sins .
Today if one even dares to remind of the dire need to beleive JESUS is the CHRIST
its known as judge not , stop condemning , stop forcing religoin on others .
And that my friend COMETH FROM CHURCHES . something went dead wrong david .
Men DID this . MEN whose desire was for power and control and MO MONEY
decieved THIS people to get bigger numbers and thus changed and keep changing with the times
to adapt and keep the numbers . Mark my words well , THERE WILL BE A DEEP PRICE
to pay for these men on the DAY of the LORD . better they all repent NOW
than to continue on the path many are now on ..............

 

[Marvelloustime]

Many would accuse JESUS of FORCING RELIGOIN down the throats of men .
He made sure to let the peoples know of the deadly dangers of rejecting HIM .
As EVEN HE reminded them
HE who is not WITH ME is AGAINST ME
and HE who is against me shall SCATTER .
YE shall DIE in your sins , for if you BELEIVE not that i am HE
you WILL DIE in your sins .
Today if one even dares to remind of the dire need to beleive JESUS is the CHRIST
its known as judge not , stop condemning , stop forcing religoin on others .
And that my friend COMETH FROM CHURCHES . something went dead wrong david .
Men DID this . MEN whose desire was for power and control and MO MONEY
decieved THIS people to get bigger numbers and thus changed and keep changing with the times
to adapt and keep the numbers . Mark my words well , THERE WILL BE A DEEP PRICE
to pay for these men on the DAY of the LORD . better they all repent NOW
than to continue on the path many are now on ..............

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

I think the best approach to unbelievers is to listen to their experiences with Christians and churches and to taylor our approach to meet their spiritual needs. After a long friendship with them during which I build their trust along with my witnessing, I would present the gospel to the modern person who does not have a church background with the fact that we're all imperfect and that since God is perfect and expects us to be perfect, we are guilty before our just Judge, who created us. We have followed Adam and Eve's lead in their rebellion against God, our Judge.

However, our perfect Father-God himself loved us so much that he sent the willing second Person of God to become Jesus, who was the God-man in order for him to suffer, die a horrible death to become our Substitute, and to give true believers his Father's "not-guilty" verdict and to take our "guilty" verdict.

But the truth doesn't end there. Parts of three days after Jesus died, he came back to permanent life and was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. His return to life means that new believers receive new life that enables them to make progress in becoming more like God, a lifelong process.

Yea rather the best approach to unbelievers is to simply TRUST IN GOD for HE will give thee a mouth
concerning what they need to hear .
Let us rather TRUST IN GOD who KNOWS exactly what each one needed to hear .
Worry not about what to say , rather let us know that in every case GOD will give us what we need to say .
I dont trust in me to do or to say
I TRUST IN GOD to GIVE ME what to do and what to say . IT has never failed once to simply Wait upon
and TRUST in the LORD .
The only times i have failed is when I was thinking ON HOW TO DO , HOW to approach , what to say .
BUT every time i wait upon the LORD , ALWAYS has HE given me exactly what to do and what to say .
Better we just rest and TRUST IN GOD than on men . cause men have messed evanglising up BIG TIME .
lets not offend, we cant say this , we cant do that and all the while They trust in men made concepts
about evangelizing and them concepts HAVE ACTUALLY SILENCED THE TRUTH . Not looking too good
within the walls and chambers of many a church these days . TRUST IN GOD , HE shall give you a mouth
and what to say and what to do in every case .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Yea rather the best approach to unbelievers is to simply TRUST IN GOD for HE will give thee a mouth
concerning what they need to hear .
Let us rather TRUST IN GOD who KNOWS exactly what each one needed to hear .
Worry not about what to say , rather let us know that in every case GOD will give us what we need to say .
I dont trust in me to do or to say
I TRUST IN GOD to GIVE ME what to do and what to say . IT has never failed once to simply Wait upon
and TRUST in the LORD .
The only times i have failed is when I was thinking ON HOW TO DO , HOW to approach , what to say .
BUT every time i wait upon the LORD , ALWAYS has HE given me exactly what to do and what to say .
Better we just rest and TRUST IN GOD than on men . cause men have messed evanglising up BIG TIME .
lets not offend, we cant say this , we cant do that and all the while They trust in men made concepts
about evangelizing and them concepts HAVE ACTUALLY SILENCED THE TRUTH . Not looking too good
within the walls and chambers of many a church these days . TRUST IN GOD , HE shall give you a mouth
and what to say and what to do in every case .

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

It depends on how the gospel is presented. If we use Christian cliches like sin, Lord, salvation, etc., the modern, post-modern person will not relate to them. On the other hand, if we use words like "imperfections" instead of "transgressions" or "iniquities" (they know that they're not perfect); describe Jesus as the Rescuer and Ruler instead of Savior and Lord; and say that our Father is all-powerful, all-knowing, present everywhere, and eternal instead of the Latin-derived words: sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent King. It's just a matter of effective communication, because they mean the same.

Also, post-modern people relate more to stories than to concepts. Therefore, we need to witness to them with the times during which God worked in our lives and also what we believe with words to which they will relate. I guess we could describe Jesus as Lord in Canada or England, since they have ruling lords and a king there. Of course, their king isn't very powerful at all.

yea rather let us know and understand the tatics of men do not work .
And know and understand the sheep will hear while others simply reject .
We cannot give the increase . man is always trying to figure out HOW to DO
and the HOW to do often contradicts the HOW THEY DID IT in the BIBLE .
Peter didnt sit around and try and figure out what the people needed to hear ,
nor did he and others worry about To warn or not to warn . THEY SPOKE TRUTH by the SPIRIT
and who so ever heard , HEARD and who so ever rejected they shook the dust off as a warning against them .
I suggest we really do return again to the bible and learn that pattern very very well for our own selves .
You are loved my friend but i can see you are struggling so hard on HOW TO WIN and what to DO , what to say
WHEN YA OUGHT be TRUSTING IN GOD who will give you what to do and what to say .