Love of Christ is what makes a person a Christian.
Not their ability to pass a theology test.
Not their ability to live a perfect life.
again: focus on helping people grow in faith & knowledge, not flaming.
The Deity of Jesus under attack on this forum.
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Not their ability to pass a theology test.
Not their ability to live a perfect life.
again: focus on helping people grow in faith & knowledge, not flaming.
The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit in a personal way, and therefore this is how we should allow our minds to be formed by Him, and His Word.
I'm suggesting to you that while you consider the Holy Spirit as lacking His Own Personhood, that the Bible speaks of Him as having Personhood. So for instance, from Romans 8, the Spirit intercedes on our behalf. We don't always know what to pray, and He makes intercession for us according to the will of God. Who is it Who is making intercession?
If we simply allow the Bible to form our understanding, then this is the Holy Spirit Who understands my need, and knows the will of the Father, and intercedes for me.
Many idioms are used in the Bible. "And his hand is stretched forth still", to describe His ongoing judgment, for another example.
However how does that relate to the Holy Spirit Who Himself makes intercession for us? This seems to me to be a different sort of passage.
Much love!
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved Eph2:4&5
I have had personal experience with cultic sects and if that is "flaming" to you it is not my problem.
The gospel of Christ Jesus has been watered down to suit and 'tie' the culture.
maybe you should really listen to the video clips again.
J.
Yes, this is common in paganism, however, I'm discussing specific passages in the Bible, and what they themselves say. Did you have a comment on any of that? Or are you thinking that disparaging comments about paganism would substitute for something pertinent?
Episkopos . . . Let's not go the way it has in the past, OK? If we stay on the topic, maybe something better can result?
Much love!
Act_13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
The Holy Spirit is not an 'it' or a extension nor an emanation, the Spirit is a Person.
J.
There is one common link that runs through all of the following, bringing the whole passage together:
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them(believers) may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS(AS) we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.
How can believers be in Father and Son? Only through the Holy Spirit, there is no other way. And Jesus prayed that believers would be in Father and Son, just as they are in each other.
How can believers be as one? Only through the Holy Spirit, there is no other way:
then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind Phil2:2
And Jesus prayed: That they may be one AS we are one.
Christians can only come to unity through the Holy Spirit.
The common link in the passage that brings it all together is the Holy Spirit
Yes, I've read some of your posts talking about this, but I've never really understood what you mean in saying and "inner man" and "outer man" as relates to the new creation.
And I've never been able to figure out what Scriptures you are seeing this from.
The inner man is the new man, the outer man is the man from Adam. Is how I understand things.Maybe I'm on the verge of hijacking this thread, and shouldn't.
Much love!
The issue here is with WHAT PART of us God is making intercession for. The coming of God's Spirit is only something new when you consider what has been taken out of the way. it is drawing the wrong conclusion to personalize a function of God's Spirit...unless you see this as the Father doing His work. Jesus said My Father and I will come and abide in (the one who loves God)...
How does the Father and the Son abide in a person? Through the shared Holy Spirit.
You are confusing spiritual function of God's Spirit acting in the inner man with a human understanding that you believe covers your entire person...which it does not.
God's Spirit contends with the outer man and brings comfort and peace to the inner man...always has and always will. There is no need to make a new separate person apart from God's own Holy Spirit. There is only ONE Spirit. The difference in the NT is that there is more access to God through the inner man because of the cross and its power of death over what brings us into bondage.
Intercession is a FUNCTION of the Spirit. If I pray for you my prayers do not become separate persons from me.
Sharing my experience: I firmly believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He’s always been God and will always be. He created the world. He + the Father + the Spirt are 3 persons in 1 God. But I do not ratify the Creeds, nor consider myself a Trinitarian because I cannot accept the Athanasain Creed’s statements of them being one through a shared substance, I just don’t find support for that. However, I love Christ, my Savior, wit every fiber of my being.
But because I do not ratify the Creeds, I am frequently branded a “cultist” by so many people whom just want to label others. They don’t want to talk with me about my love of Christ, they just want to tell me I’m dammed for a bunch of false accusations. It doesn’t matter what I say.
I don’t see Christ treating anyone that way, so neither do I. I welcome all, tell me of your love of Christ, let’s celebrate that, and see if we can learn / grow more.
That's another good example.
"The Holy Spirit said . . ." I suppose that one would have to read that as, "Through the Holy Spirit, the Father said . . ." If we stay with the simplicity of the saying of the passage itself, we will find harmony with those others that make similar statements, treating the Holy Spirit as a Person, Who knows things, and speaks things, and intercedes on our behalf, Who gives us comfort, Who can be saddened by us.
He is a Person, showing intent, and action, and emotion, and care. He called Barnabas and Saul. Would we reword that in our minds also?
No. We let our minds be formed the way God speaks.
Much love!
The inner man is not the New Man. We have both an inner man AND an outer man AFTER conversion....and always. The New Man is Christ whom we put on to be perfect as He is perfect. That is a covering and NEVER us. No longer I....
1. We are a new creation in Christ....check
2. We are called to put on the New Man as a subsequent step in the salvation process (through baptism in the Spirit and abiding in Christ to walk in resurrection power)...check
3. HOWEVER, we are still a duality of inner man (the inner heart that contains our spirits and what is able to connect to God)...and the outer man (our personality and protective covering that has beliefs, preferences, and the desire for MORE, always MORE) which contains our sin nature.
The inner man is created in God's image. Like a new born baby...weak and vulnerable.
The outer man is from this world and for this world...a protective covering that is imbued with the character of the devil. it is survival first for him. He justifies himself by protecting the vulnerable inner man.
Just look at these threads and see how many use their outer man (now become religious) against me. You have done this many times too.
i speak the truth in love from the inner man...appealing to the inner man in others...whose carnal reactions reveal the outer religious nature in some here...and elsewhere ;)
Unless you understand the inner man and outer man in yourself...you will never know yourself. You will be caught defending yourself and your ego...in the guise of self-protection for the inner man. So people who don't know themselves and the evil they are capable of...will attack another...even the inner man in the other...with the premise of protecting something PURE in themselves. But these are shedders of blood. They only love themselves.
Once you see this...you will have a VERY different outlook on Body life...discerning the Body.
I want to answer everything, but this first. You pray, and no, your prayers do not become a separate person. The Holy Spirit prays, and His prayers are not a separate person.
Romans 8:26-27 KJV
26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The Spirit makes intercession. His intercessions are not a separate person. Just as with you.
In that He intercedes, there must be two parties between whom He is intercessor, and He intercedes in His prayers for you to the Father. And while we know God is One, we see here that the Holy Spirit of God is His Own Person, praying to the Father on my behalf.
And no, His prayers on not separate people.
I realize you are asserting that the Holy Spirit is compared to your prayers, that neither become separate people, hopefully this will show how I see that an "apples and oranges" argument, and I encourage you to stay with the way it reads.
Much love!
By "protective covering", do you mean in the sense of, this is how we survive in a material creation?
Much love!
The Spirit itself does many things. One of those things is to intercede with our inner man to edify it to move into the character of the stature of Christ. Nothing strange here.
What is lacking is understanding of how God's Spirit functions...how God creates with His Spirit...how gentle He is through His Spirit.
God is love.
yes, our defense mechanism...our preferences...our tastes and bents. Anything outside the knowledge of God...that is meant FOR this temporal world. The outer man cannot live on into eternity. We are only our inner man at the point of death...basically the soul.
Did we trust in God or did we rely on ourselves? Did we trust in the Spirit or did we carnally defend ourselves? etc...
Don't defend. I'm only stating what is true. Taking things personally is from the outer man...defending the "purity" of your intentions from the inner man.
It's far better to learn a deep lesson than to defend yourself and stay the way you are..no? What is the way to growth in the truth if not to lay down your protective filters? I mean you no harm. :)
growing in Christ is VERY hard...as long as you are unwilling to suffer and be exposed in your outer man. If you defend yourself with your outer man...that just makes you carnal. A spiritual man takes attacks with gentleness and grace...since they might have a point! :) If nothing sticks then the other is at fault. But it is worth hearing what offends us...since the inner man CANNOT be offended...only grieved.
Amen brother, a real gift you have with words and a real encourager..I have learned a lot following your posts my brother in Christ.
I let the lion loose and step back (for a while)
J.
The thing is, excepting the personal comments, you may be surprised to know that I agree nearly everything you say here. And emphatically so.
I think there is more to be said than that putting on Christ is putting on a covering, in that we are transformed ourselves to His image.
And concerning "with the premise of protecting something pure in themselves", perhaps, but I generally think that what happens is there is a knee-jerk flesh reaction, and we simply fail to stop it. This baby "new man" isn't too good at that yet. When he is more mature, he is better at stopping fleshy behaviors.
As I understand things, all that is not of faith is sin, and there is no faith in the outer man, only sin. Failing to impose the new man, our inner man, over the outer man, our body of flesh with it's mind descendant from Adam, results in sin, and all the difficulties we see on these threads.
Much love!
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