The Coming Rapture
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The Light
Well-Known Member
The dead in Christ rise first. This is the barley harvest. 24 elders in heaven. The alive remain on the earth.
The Lord returns for the alive that remained. This is the wheat harvest. He brings the dead in Christ with Him.
The Light
Well-Known Member
My error. I did not realize that you understood that the great tribulation is not the wrath of God.
So my comments were based on me thinking that you believed the great tribulation and the wrath of God were the same thing. So what I said needs to be tossed in the trash.
Here's the problem for me. I know the day of vengeance is one-year long. And I know the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night and brings sudden destruction. And I know the sun is darkened and the moon turns to blood before the Day of the Lord which occurs at the 6th seal. And I know the Lord comes as a thief at the end of the 7th seal.
I would think that the Day of the Lord, the day of vengeance, and the day of wrath are all the same thing. And yet the time period for vengeance and wrath is one year and the day of the Lord comes as a thief at the end of that year. Soooooooooooooooooo.....I'm kind of stuck in limbo.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's not what it says. You are horribly butchering the text. In no way, shape or form does Paul talk about Jesus descending from heaven twice in that passage (1 Thess 4:14-17). Instead, he says that before anyone is caught up, the dead in Christ are resurrected first. After they are resurrected they are then caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.
There is only one mention of Jesus descending from heaven in that passage, not two. The ones who will be with Jesus when He comes at that time are the souls of the dead in Christ. They will unite with their changed bodies, but their bodies have to be resurrected and changed first. That's why it says the dead in Christ rise first because that has to happen first before they can be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air. You seem to completely ignore that the dead in Christ are caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive and remain at the same time.
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When you have an interpretation of passage all to yourself like this, it should raise a red flag and make you wonder why no one agrees with you. Does God reveal the truth of this only to you? Why would He do that?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Disagree.
1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be Caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I'm also probably one of the few that believes in two raptures.
The reason I believe the alive remain until the Lord returns for them is that's what it says. Which lines up with the barley and wheat harvests.
The Light
Well-Known Member
It's right there for you to read. Nothing I have said disagrees with what is written. You just don't agree because it's been interpreted the same way since whenever.
Most think that 1Thes 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15:51-52 are talking about the same thing. And that is what is taught. They are not the same.
One says the Lord Himself comes at the trump of God or voice of God. And one is talking about the Lord sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the last trump. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets the fall harvest feast.
The Light
Well-Known Member
They are caught up together...........with them in the clouds.
1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Not the tribulation that occurs before Jesus comes. Of course, I believe there was great tribulation in Jerusalem in 70 AD as well, but that was God's wrath. So, maybe you've seen me talk about that before and you got confused. Anyway, now you know.
Yes, it does, but thanks for acknowledging your mistake. Many here would be too proud to do that and just continue trying to tell me what I believe instead of letting me explain what I believe.
How do you know that?
Is that "sudden destruction" not the vengeance you're talking about? How can it not be? See what you're doing to yourself by insisting that the day of vengeance is one year long despite scripture saying that it will be sudden?
How do you conclude that the day of the Lord occurs at the 6th seal rather than it being the case that it indicates the day of the Lord is at hand and soon to come and then it comes with the 7th seal? Why do you think there is silence in heaven for a half hour at the seventh seal? I believe it's because heaven is empty at that point because Jesus descends from heaven with the souls of the dead in Christ and His angels at that point.
They are, man! Please try to drop all of your doctrinal biases and look at these things objectively and see what you discover.
It's not one year. You can see the scriptures which do not support that idea. Which scripture do you think supports that? Just this one which you have mentioned before....
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
If this is all you have to support that belief, while you know darn well there are other scriptures which do not support it, maybe you need to take a closer look at this verse and see if it really means what you think it means. It means both a day and a year there, but you decide that it's referring to a duration of time that lasts a year instead of a day. Why?
Think about it like this. Let's say I'm a fan of a certain baseball team and let's say I claim that this is the year that they will finally win the World Series. Am I saying that the World Series, and particularly the game where my team clinches the World Series championship, lasts for the whole year by saying this is the year they will win the World Series? No, right? So, try to look similarly at Isaiah 34:8.
We know that Jesus will one day take vengeance on all His enemies, right? Paul talks about that in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. If Is say I think this will be the year that He does that, am I saying that He takes vengeance the entire year? No, right? Instead, I'm saying I believe the day He will come will be some time this year.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Oh. I forgot. For some the wrath of God is 30 minutes of silence....................in heaven.
The seals happen in order. Only the 7th seal has anything to do with the trumpets and vials....................Just like the Word of God says.
The seventh seal is opened......................and 7 trumpets happen.
I don't think all the trumpets happen followed by the vials. The 1st trumpet and 1st vial happen before the second trumpet and second vial. Etc. Etc.
The seals happen in order. Only the 7th seal has anything to do with the trumpets and vials....................Just like the Word of God says.
The seventh seal is opened......................and 7 trumpets happen.
I don't think all the trumpets happen followed by the vials. The 1st trumpet and 1st vial happen before the second trumpet and second vial. Etc. Etc.
Yeah, nowhere. Unless you read Revelation 8
Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Etc...........Etc......................
How can you possibly say," Nowhere does it say they occur in the 7th seal."
It seems you just decide where things go. God says those 7 trumpets happen after the 7th seal is opened. You say nope. I'll go with God as usual.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and you alone are the first one to ever interpret it correctly? Do you know how arrogant you sound by basically saying only you interpret the passage correctly and no one else in the world has the past almost 2,000 years?
Yes, what you have said does disagree with what is written. You do not have the dead in Christ being caught up TOGETHER with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air, but that is specifically what Paul said will happen.
They absolutely are part of the same event. The resurrected dead referred to in 1 Cor 15:51-52 are the very same dead in Christ who are resurrected in 1 Thess 4:16-17. There is no basis whatsoever for thinking otherwise. Paul made it clear that all who belong to Christ will be resurrected at the same time in this passage...
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
See that? All of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at His second coming. Not some at His second coming and then more at His supposed third coming. Your view blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.
Goodness sakes, you can't expect two passages that refer to the same event to contain all the same details. Is that your standard for two passages being about the same event? That's ridiculous. Just because Paul doesn't mention specifically how we will be gathered to meet Christ in the air doesn't mean it can't happen by way of the angels gathering us. Also, as far as your comment about the trump of God in the one passage (1 Thess 4:14-17) that doesn't specifically mention angels, did you somehow miss this...
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why would it take any longer than that for Jesus to take out His wrath on His enemies?
Of course.
The Word of God does NOT say that the 7th seal is directly related to the trumpets and vials. You say that.
No. That is not what it says. That is your biased view. Do you understand that John saw a serious of visions? He was not seeing things happen chronologically from the beginning to the end of the book. Clearly not! Surely, you can acknowledge that, can't you? You know that at the very least what he saw in Revelation 11 does not follow what he saw in Revelation 12 chronologically or else Jesus's birth and ascension would come after the seventh trumpet. The book contains a series of parallels and is not just chronological from beginning to end.
John saw the vision regarding the seven seals then he saw a vision regarding the seven trumpets. That does NOT mean the seven trumpets have to follow the seventh seal chronologically.
Where is the consistency in your approach to interpreting the book?! How can you acknowledge that the trumpets and vials are parallel but not the seals as well? I don't get it! I'm sorry, but your lack of consistency in how you interpret the book strongly gives the impression that you just interpret it to make it say what you want it to say.
Read what I said above. Just because the seven trumpets are described right after the mention of the seventh seal does not mean they have to follow the seventh seal chronologically. How can you insist that when you acknowledge that the seven vials don't all follow the seventh trumpet chronologically?! I don't get it, man. Your approach to interpreiting the book is not consistent.
Where does it say that those 7 trumpets happen after the 7th seal is opened? How are you coming to that conclusion? Why do you not come to a similar conclusion that the 7 vials are all poured out after the 7th trumpet since they are not described until after the description of the 7th trumpet sounding?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's what I figured except I referenced Isaiah 34:8 instead of that verse. But, they say the same thing. I addressed this in post 329.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I think you're the only one. I've never seen anyone who claimed to believe that other than you. Why do you think that God reveal something like that only to you out of the multitude of Christians over the years who have studied these things?
No, that isn't what it says. It says the dead in Christ will be caught up TOGETHER at the same time with those who are alive and remain.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes, those who die believing in JESUS…GOD will bring with HIM.
John 10:
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand
That is the First Resurrection.
Those “IN” Christ, Are Raised up by The Lord. Rapture.
John 10:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Your doctrine determines what you think the Word says. I read the word and that is my doctrine.
The alive that remain are caught up together WITH THOSE IN THE CLOUDS. Why do you find it necessary to change what is written.
The Lord Himself comes for His bride in 1 Thes 4. He sends His angels in 1 Cor 15. 1 Thes 4 is at the trump of God. 1 Cor 15 is at the last trump. The dead rise first and the alive remain in 1 Thes 4. The dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye in 1 Cor 15. You just blow of off the details without thinking.
Exactly. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. There is a reason there are 144,000 first fruits. of the second harvest.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The difference is, I put away my sledgehammer and quit beating things into place. For instance, your claim that the seventh seal does not contain the trumpets are a perfect example of this. Even though it says that the 7th seal is opened, and the 7 angels are getting ready to sound the trumpets...............you blow it off and sledgehammer it over to the 1st six seals. God says it's the seventh seal, but you in your ignorance want to claim those trumpets happen in the 1st 6 seals. If those trumpets were in the 1st six seals, don't you think they would be listed there?
1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The alive are caught up together WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS.
The dead in Christ are already in the clouds...........as the Lord brought them with Him.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I guess you haven't figured out that I don't have doctrinal biases. The sledgehammer was put away a long time ago.
Isaiah 61
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
The day of vengeance is one year long. That is how long the wrath of God............those trumpets and vials will be on the earth.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is a lie. We've been having a pretty good, respectful discussion here. Don't ruin it with ridiculous comments like this.
You are the one changing what is written. How about you actually look at what is written?
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is saying that the dead in Christ are first resurrected. That's the first thing that happens after Jesus descends from heaven. Then what? Then those who are alive and remain are caught up at the same time together with the resurrected dead in Christ. Nowhere does it say the dead in Christ are already in the clouds before those who are alive and remain. No, they are caught up together as one group to meet Christ in the air. You are the one changing the text. You have the dead in Christ already having been caught up to meet Christ on a prior occasion and in no way, shape or form does Paul say that!
This is utter, total, 100% nonsense. You are the one not thinking. What you're saying is absolutely baseless. You have decided that if one passage has a detail that isn't contained in another passage, then the two passages can't be about the same event. That is insane! That is not how to interpret scripture. The fact of the matter is that the passages have similarities and neither contains anything that contradicts the other. If you were actually thinking, you would see that.
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