The battle of Gog and Magog does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ

[IndianaRob]

When saints are resurrected from the graves their glorified body will be immortal & incorruptible. If they arose bodily when Christ rose from the dead, that would cause contradiction, because Paul tells us saints will be bodily resurrected immortal when the last trumpet sounds. And Christ says we shall be resurrected on the last day.

I assume you believe the last day is the last of earth, if so that goes against Ecclesiastes 1:4 where it says “the earth abideth forever”.

I used to believe that way too until I finally figured out “the last” was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth, in other words resurrection day.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree it looks like those are physical resurrections but I think those in verse 4 are the Old Testament saints that rose with Christ and the ones in verse 5 are the Old Testament saints that didn’t rise with him.

The timeframe of Rev 20 and the resurrection is after the second coming. The beheaded saints died in the GT for refusing worship and the mark of the beast so no OT saints or any previous resurrection is in view there.

 

[IndianaRob]

How could the last trumpet be Jesus during His ministry since John writes that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound time shall be no longer? (Rev 10:5-7)

Isn’t the context of “time no longer” meaning the time of waiting for the mystery of God to be revealed is over?

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[IndianaRob]

What are you saying exactly? You are saying you believe the dead in Christ were bodily raised with Christ at His resurrection or spiritually raised with Christ as passages like this talk about:

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

I’m saying that the only group in history that could have possibly been considered the dead in Christ was the Old Testament saints because they were still dead in their sins when they left this world.

Believers in Christ don’t die, we have eternal life and will never SEE death of any kind. We are just like Enoch. God took the spirit out of Enoch and placed it in Abraham’s bosom and Enoch’s body fell to the ground.

The only difference between us and all of the other Old Testament saints was that they went to Abraham’s bosom awaiting the coming of Christ. We on the other hand are changed in the twinkling of an eye and are taken straight to heaven in our glorified bodies.

That’s why Paul included himself when he said “WE which are alive and remain til the coming of the Lord..”

 

[rwb]

I assume you believe the last day is the last of earth, if so that goes against Ecclesiastes 1:4 where it says “the earth abideth forever”.

I used to believe that way too until I finally figured out “the last” was the last day Jesus was in the heart of the earth, in other words resurrection day.

Prove what you allege! I don't deny Ecc 1:4 because I know how it can be reconciled with this passage: 2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Are you able to give understanding of these two verses so there is not contradiction in the Word of God? Perhaps it isn't important to you to force contradiction into the Word of God, but if the Word of God contains contradiction as you are pushing what good it is?

There is also this passage of Scripture that must be reconciled with what is written in Ecc 1:4. If this earth abides forever, why is there a need for a new earth?

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Since the day of the Lord began with the first advent of Christ, it stands to reason that His day will have a last day when time given this earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God "shall be time no longer."

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[rwb]

Isn’t the context of “time no longer” meaning the time of waiting for the mystery of God to be revealed is over?

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Do you know what the mystery of God is finished refers to when there should be time no longer?

 

[rwb]

I’m saying that the only group in history that could have possibly been considered the dead in Christ was the Old Testament saints because they were still dead in their sins when they left this world.

You don't believe Old Covenant saints were saved by grace through faith when they believed the prophets who foretell of a Messiah/Savior that would come?

 

[rwb]

Believers in Christ don’t die, we have eternal life and will never SEE death of any kind. We are just like Enoch. God took the spirit out of Enoch and placed it in Abraham’s bosom and Enoch’s body fell to the ground.

Then why are the physically dead buried in graves in the earth?

 

[rwb]

The only difference between us and all of the other Old Testament saints was that they went to Abraham’s bosom awaiting the coming of Christ.

You just said they didn't "see death of any kind"? Abraham's bosom is where the beggar, Lazarus went when he physically died because Abraham's bosom was the grave that held all those of Old who died in faith, believing in the Messiah/Savior to come.

 

[IndianaRob]

Prove what you allege! I don't deny Ecc 1:4 because I know how it can be reconciled with this passage: 2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Are you able to give understanding of these two verses so there is not contradiction in the Word of God? Perhaps it isn't important to you to force contradiction into the Word of God, but if the Word of God contains contradiction as you are pushing what good it is?

There is also this passage of Scripture that must be reconciled with what is written in Ecc 1:4. If this earth abides forever, why is there a need for a new earth?

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Since the day of the Lord began with the first advent of Christ, it stands to reason that His day will have a last day when time given this earth for building the spiritual Kingdom of God "shall be time no longer."

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Doesn't this verse along with the verses following it prove it? Jesus is very clear that he's talking about going to minister to the spirits in prison.

John 5:25 (KJV):
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

 

[IndianaRob]

Do you know what the mystery of God is finished refers to when there should be time no longer?

Yes. The mystery was finished when everything written in the Old Testament was fulfilled.

 

[IndianaRob]

Then why are the physically dead buried in graves in the earth?

Bodies die when the soul leaves. We are not the body, we are a living soul experiencing this life in an earthly body. When it's time to go home to be with the Lord, God takes us and the body falls to the ground. This is exactly what happened to Enoch.

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV):
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Enoch did not SEE death. Either one of two things happened. Either Enoch and his earthly body were taken to heaven or Enoch was taken and his body died. The answer to which one happened is in verse 13.

Hebrews 11:13 (KJV):
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

 

[IndianaRob]

You just said they didn't "see death of any kind"? Abraham's bosom is where the beggar, Lazarus went when he physically died because Abraham's bosom was the grave that held all those of Old who died in faith, believing in the Messiah/Savior to come.

Correct, God is the God of the living not the God of the dead. All believers leave this world the same way, God takes the soul to heaven, whether it was the OLD heaven (Abraham's Bosom) or the NEW heaven (the place Jesus prepared for us).

This should be understood and accepted because of this verse.

John 11:26 (KJV):
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

The problem is most people don't believeth that.

 

[IndianaRob]

@rwb
The best example of a Christian leaving this world is Stephen. Before anybody laid a hand on Stephen, Stephen being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God

 

[marks]

@rwb
The best example of a Christian leaving this world is Stephen. Before anybody laid a hand on Stephen, Stephen being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God

And as Jesus said, he who lives and believes in Me shall never die, Stephen moved to his next home is all.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Correct, God is the God of the living not the God of the dead. All believers leave this world the same way, God takes the soul to heaven, whether it was the OLD heaven (Abraham's Bosom) or the NEW heaven (the place Jesus prepared for us).

This should be understood and accepted because of this verse.

John 11:26 (KJV):
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

The problem is most people don't believeth that.

OK, you already wrote that!

:-)

Much love!

 

[IndianaRob]

And as Jesus said, he who lives and believes in Me shall never die, Stephen moved to his next home is all.

Much love!

Amen brother! Those are the words we are to comfort one another with, that is our blessed hope.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

I don’t think many people will relate that verse to Stephen.

 

[Stumpmaster]

True, "IF" you got the timing of the millennial kingdom correct. Not in the future as premillennialists believe. The 1,000 millennial kingdom is the church. Satan was bound by Christ at the Cross for 1,000 years (fullness of time of whatever is in view, not 1,000 literal years) so that Christ could build the church with people being born again by hearing the Gospel. Do you realize that being born again IS the First Resurrection in Christ - when we were made alive from the spiritual dead?

The battle of Gog and Magog comes at the end of the millennial kingdom when the church has become apostasy and desolation which is a prelude to the Second Coming. That's it!

The view you’re describing aligns closely with Amillennialism. This interpretation is held by several Christian denominations, including many within the Reformed and Lutheran traditions. Here are some key points about Amillennialism:

1. Symbolic Interpretation: Amillennialists interpret the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 symbolically, not as a literal period. They believe it represents the current church age, the time between Christ’s first and second comings1.
2. Satan Bound: They hold that Satan was bound by Christ’s victory on the cross, which allows the Gospel to spread and people to be born again2.
3. First Resurrection: The “first resurrection” is understood spiritually, referring to the regeneration or being born again of believers1.
4. Present Reign: They believe that Christ is currently reigning in heaven and through His church on earth1.

This perspective contrasts with Premillennialism, which expects a future, literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth, and Postmillennialism, which anticipates a future golden age of Christian dominance before Christ’s return3. [Copilot]

 

[TribulationSigns]

The view you’re describing aligns closely with Amillennialism. This interpretation is held by several Christian denominations, including many within the Reformed and Lutheran traditions. Here are some key points about Amillennialism:

1. Symbolic Interpretation: Amillennialists interpret the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 symbolically, not as a literal period. They believe it represents the current church age, the time between Christ’s first and second comings1.
2. Satan Bound: They hold that Satan was bound by Christ’s victory on the cross, which allows the Gospel to spread and people to be born again2.
3. First Resurrection: The “first resurrection” is understood spiritually, referring to the regeneration or being born again of believers1.
4. Present Reign: They believe that Christ is currently reigning in heaven and through His church on earth1.

This perspective contrasts with Premillennialism, which expects a future, literal 1,000-year reign of Christ on earth, and Postmillennialism, which anticipates a future golden age of Christian dominance before Christ’s return3. [Copilot]

Very Good. And many more in-depth...

Amillennialism: A Word Direct From The Scriptures

Verse by verse Biblical exposition of Revelation Chapter 20

The Feast of Tabernacles

They Shall Beat Their Swords Into Plowshares

 

[rwb]

Yes. The mystery was finished when everything written in the Old Testament was fulfilled.

The mystery that had been hidden in times of Old that is now made known through the Scriptures and the prophets is that Gentiles within all the nations of the world would be eternally saved when they believe. And that Gentiles of faith would be saved with Jews of faith and they would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. When the last Gentile or the fullness of the Gentiles has become saved the seventh trumpet will sound that time given the Church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as they proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world will be no longer.

Romans 16:25-26 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Ephesians 3:1-6 (KJV) For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Ephesians 3:8-9 (KJV) Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:25-27 (KJV) Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 (KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.