The battle of Gog and Magog does not happen until after the thousand year reign of Christ
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ewq1938
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That is not accurate as it is unrelated to the subject of Rev 20, which is the physical resurrection of those who have physically died. The first resurrection in Rev 20 is speaking of them, a large group coming back to life. They died as saved Christians and will be resurrected again.
I agree it looks like those are physical resurrections but I think those in verse 4 are the Old Testament saints that rose with Christ and the ones in verse 5 are the Old Testament saints that didn’t rise with him.
I’m not saying that’s the way it is but that’s what it looks like to me. We do know from 1 Corinthians 15 that the resurrection is the resurrection of the soul from death to eternal life and we know this happened when Christ was resurrected.
That means “The Resurrection”, the resurrection of the soul happened at the same time many, but not all, of the Old Testament saints were physically resurrected.
Hopefully we’ll all get a better understanding as this thread develops.
I don't necessarily disagree! But I feel there is less confusion, at least for me, to understand the first resurrection is of Christ alone. Those who are born again share in Christ's resurrection (1st) life through His Spirit, but we are not bodily resurrected as Christ was until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.
There is no physical resurrection from the graves until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Those who have done good will be physically resurrected to life again, and those who have done evil resurrected for damnation.
According to this verse Christ was not the only one that was raised at the resurrection.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Christ is the the first fruits (plural) of them that SLEPT. This is saying that those who were sleeping are not sleeping anymore…. They along with Christ are the first fruits.
Am I seeing this wrong?
I believe John is using Rev 20 to show a distinction and what happens to those who have been born again, and those who live and die in unbelief.
There are some who have been martyred for their faith whom John sees alive in heaven. But there are also those who have died in unbelief, who shall not live again until a thousand years (symbolic of time) have finished. But these are not the full embodiment of all mankind. Because there are others who have not yet lived who will reign with Christ during a thousand years (time). They too, like the martyred saints alive in heaven, will partake of the resurrection life of Christ spiritually before they die. That's why John writes they are blessed and holy, have overcome the second death, and shall be priests of God and of Christ.
John shows what will come after the Kingdom of God in heaven is spiritually complete when the thousand years are expired. Satan is set free for a little season and goes out to the deceived world gathering together all of his minions to try one last time to destroy the last Christians still alive on this earth. We know this does not happen because fire will come down out of heaven to devour them all. We know from other passages the saints will not be devoured with Satan and his minions. Before the fire of God comes down, all who are of Christ will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
After the wrath of God has ended, He will call "the dead" only to stand before the GWTJ to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Then there will be a new heavens and new earth where all who are with Christ will dwell with Him forever and ever, new world without end.
I agree! But only Christ is the firstfruits from the dead PHYSICALLY. The Old Covenant faithful are firstfruits SPIRITUALLY. They arose from the graves and as spiritual body of Christ ascended with Christ to heaven. They were sown natural body and raised a spiritual body (1Cor 14:44) because man has both a natural body and a spiritual body. And every spirit returns to God when our natural body dies. (Ecc 12:7) These saints could not ascend to heaven until after Christ came and made atonement for sin, and defeated death. (Jo 3:13) They had to wait in the place the OT writes is the bosom of Abraham. (Lu 16:22-23) That was the place Christ first descended to before ascending to heaven. (Eph 4:8-10) Before Christ died on the cross, He said "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" then He physically died. Heaven is where faithful saint dwell spiritually, the Kingdom of God in heaven, when we are born again. Since our spirit possesses eternal life heaven continues to be the habitation of faithful saints after physical death. Then when time shall be no longer, Christ will return and make all things new and the saints will be with Christ forever on the new earth.
I can’t prove this but the evidence is overwhelming in my option that the last trump was the voice of Jesus during his ministry.
I’m pretty sure the idea of the last trump comes from this foreshadow.
Num 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
Num 10:3 And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
The two trumpets are actually two parts of one piece of silver. The Bible is actually two testaments in one book.
The trumpets were to calling the assembly and for the journey of the camps. The Bible is to call the believer out of the world and for the believer in his journey through life.
The trumpet is made of silver. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
I’m not saying doctrine should be formed based solely on this, I’m just putting it out there for those who might not have connected the two ideas.
When saints are resurrected from the graves their glorified body will be immortal & incorruptible. If they arose bodily when Christ rose from the dead, that would cause contradiction, because Paul tells us saints will be bodily resurrected immortal when the last trumpet sounds. And Christ says we shall be resurrected on the last day.
How could the last trumpet be Jesus during His ministry since John writes that when the seventh trumpet begins to sound time shall be no longer? (Rev 10:5-7)
Spiritual Israelite
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Pathetic response. Using scripture to interpret scripture the way I do is vain babblings to you. What a joke.
Yes, the first resurrection itself is past because that is Christ's resurrection as scripture explicitly teaches! (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). But, having part in His resurrection spiritually is an ongoing process as each person gets saved and goes from being dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ.
I do not deny that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur in the future, either. So, applying that passage to what I'm saying is stupid and inappropriate.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
If you want to debate Amils, maybe you should put at least some effort into understanding what we believe. Eh? Congratulations on winning the debate with your straw man.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yep. Nothing but childish and sarcastic responses with no substance while they misrepresent our view. That's all they have to offer since they can't refute our view at all.
We show explicit scripture that says Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection and they ignore it.
We show explicit scripture which says all of the dead, saved and lost, will be resurrected at the same time and they ignore it.
We show explicit scripture showing the saved and lost being judged at the same time and they ignore it.
We show explicit scripture showing all unbelievers being killed when Christ returns and they ignore it.
On and on it goes.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes. The lack of honesty on their part is sad to see. We show explicit scripture that supports our view and they don't want to address it. So, they try to change the subject, as you said. I can't imagine having the perspective of believing what you want to believe, as they do, instead of just accepting what scripture teaches. I've never thought that way.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What are you saying exactly? You are saying you believe the dead in Christ were bodily raised with Christ at His resurrection or spiritually raised with Christ as passages like this talk about:
Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He is making no effort to understand what we believe, so he ends up repeatedly making false accusations towards us as if we're saying the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ has already occurred, which, of course, we are not.
I think the latter. He's clearly making no effort to understand what we're saying. He didn't even know about Amil until recently, but he just immediately dismisses it without even taking the time to understand what we believe, which is foolish.rwb said:
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You're making a fool of yourself in this thread. Why don't you actually pay attention to what we're saying instead of just making assumptions? We are saying that the first resurrection itself was Christ's bodily resurrection. That already took place, right? I think you can at least understand that much. But, what we're saying is that believers spiritually have part in His resurrection and that is how someone has part in the first resurrection.
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
This passage above expresses our understanding of having part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection, as scripture EXPLICITLY teaches.
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Tell me, at what point is it true that the second death no longer has power over someone?
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I'll give you a hint.
Revelation 2:9 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Tell me, at what point does a believer become a priest of God and of Christ?
I'll give you a hint.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath MADE us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye ARE a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Apply the answers to these questions to Revelation 20:6 and see what you discover.
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