rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Sounds like " election"
Ok
Now i know the BASIS for your reframing basic truth.
Oh well
Believe anything you want.
I see why verses have zero effect in your mind.
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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Ok
Now i know the BASIS for your reframing basic truth.
Oh well
Believe anything you want.
I see why verses have zero effect in your mind.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Now we know WHY " Laying ahold of...."
Is rejected.
Election= yet another doctrine of omissions.
Waste of time talking to the omitter bunch.
They are invincible.
Is rejected.
Election= yet another doctrine of omissions.
Waste of time talking to the omitter bunch.
They are invincible.
Thats who Christ accomplished Salvation for, His Elect. Thats basic bible doctrine 101
It set us free from unbelief , a servant of sin ! 2
Now it is Christ that sets us free from the servitude of sin symptomized by unbelief and dead works of false religion. So if one does not ever come to believe the Gospel, its because they are still being a servant of sin, and if and when they do come to embrace the Gospel, its the evidence that for them, Christ's death hath set them free, that is the effects of His death, it hath liberated them from service to sin, and God should be thanked for that as Paul writes here Rom 6:17
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin or unbelievers, but ye have obeyed/believed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Believing or obeying from the Heart the Gospel is something God should be thanked for ! Not mans idol freewill ! Believing the Doctrine of the Gospel is an act of obeying, as it is indicated here Rom 10:16
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Now the word obeyed in Rom 6:17 and here in Rom 10:16 are the same greek word hypakouō and means:
The same would apply for Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That action if performed by us, God should be Thanked !
Antichrist followers would tell us that mans own freewill is responsible for believing from the heart the Doctrine of Christ and His finished work, which is a lie !
Take your pick, either God , Christ should get the Full credit for ones believing the Gospel, or mans freewill gets the credit, or even partial credit, but it cannot be both ! Remember, we must be first set free from the servitude of sin to become a believer ! Does Christ death effects that freedom, liberty or mans freewill ?
24
Now it is Christ that sets us free from the servitude of sin symptomized by unbelief and dead works of false religion. So if one does not ever come to believe the Gospel, its because they are still being a servant of sin, and if and when they do come to embrace the Gospel, its the evidence that for them, Christ's death hath set them free, that is the effects of His death, it hath liberated them from service to sin, and God should be thanked for that as Paul writes here Rom 6:17
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin or unbelievers, but ye have obeyed/believed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Believing or obeying from the Heart the Gospel is something God should be thanked for ! Not mans idol freewill ! Believing the Doctrine of the Gospel is an act of obeying, as it is indicated here Rom 10:16
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Now the word obeyed in Rom 6:17 and here in Rom 10:16 are the same greek word hypakouō and means:
Paul says that if one obeyed, then God should be Thanked for that Rom 6:17.
The same would apply for Rom 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
That action if performed by us, God should be Thanked !
Antichrist followers would tell us that mans own freewill is responsible for believing from the heart the Doctrine of Christ and His finished work, which is a lie !
Take your pick, either God , Christ should get the Full credit for ones believing the Gospel, or mans freewill gets the credit, or even partial credit, but it cannot be both ! Remember, we must be first set free from the servitude of sin to become a believer ! Does Christ death effects that freedom, liberty or mans freewill ?
24
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
under your assumptions, certain infants are damned and created damned, but the lucky ones are robots and have no say.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
false and easily shown to be so by anyone with a bible.
a good clue would be "name blotted out"
Under your doctrine of Gods robots, there could NEVER BE any such blotting out of names.
Another clue would be the heart of God. Jesus died for the entire world, not certain prechosen lucky lottery winners.
Ahem...Jn 3;16
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
ya know, i never thought about it, how the Calvinist would reject physical healing as part of the atonement.
I am so thankful my method is systematic theology.
Denominations are man led organizations.
Some of God, and some of man. But always reverting to logic.
What a trap.
I am so thankful my method is systematic theology.
Denominations are man led organizations.
Some of God, and some of man. But always reverting to logic.
What a trap.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The Jailer tells Paul "what must I do to be saved?"
Paul..."absolutely nothing, you are either chosen or not"
Paul..."absolutely nothing, you are either chosen or not"
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
Well there are some obvious principles if one can look past their theological bias. Several calvinists disagreed with the following principles to defend God hated/despised esau.
1- God loves sinners, God loves the world meaning all people, everyone.
2- So when its says God hates we must examine what/who is the recipient of the hate and why. Why God would detest something/someone vs love less.
3- We use the lexicons to help us determine how the word is being used in various contexts/passages.
4- We use other scriptures to compare the word/verse with to get an idea how its used
5- We for example can learn about the " idioms" from the original people, places and times
6- With hate we learn it is an Jewish idiom being used in conjunction with love as a comparison
There are so many misnomers running around about God and His love and what that looks like in regard to mankind. If anyone wants to know what God is like and what He thinks we need to look no further than Jesus and His teachings since He is the Eternal God who became man.
1- Jesus taught us to love our enemies and pray for them
2- Jesus lived among sinners, ate with them and loved them, had compassion on them.
3- Jesus loves sinners, not hates them
4- Jesus on the cross said please forgive them Father for they know not what they do- His enemies who hated Him at the time.
5- Jesus came to seek and save the lost, the sinner
6- Jesus showed us what love looks like, acts like, talks like, lives like and how it treats people.
7- Jesus told us all the law and commandments are wrapped up/fulfilled in loving God with all our being( heart, mind,soul ) and your neighbor as you do yourself.
8- Jesus said if you really love Him you will do what He has commanded
9- Love is described perfectly in 1 Corinthians 13- If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails.
10- Love in action in Galatians 5- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
I could list another 10 points to this list but this should be plenty to get the point across. The wrath, anger, hatred about God towards us misunderstood by many. Gods wrath always falls upon the reprobate, apostate, those hardened against God, those who are wicked and rebellious that reject Gods provision for their sins by Jesus sacrifice.
conclusion: because God is Love and Jesus is God we can see to perfection that 1 Cor 13 and the fruit of the spirit in Gal 5:22-23 describes Jesus to a tee . He is love incarnate since God is love we see Him in action described in the gospels and where the Bible defines love.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Calvin Institutes 3:21:5 - All are not created on equal terms ,but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
According to Calvinist theory God hates most of humanity and is actively working to make sure they all end up in hell. That is a level of evil you should only attribute to Satan himself.
Billions of people are in hell because:
(1) they are not part of those who were Unconditionally Elected
(2) they were not granted Irresistible Grace
(3) because of sin that God unchangeably ordained by God for them to commit.
(4) because Jesus did not die for their sins.
People go to hell because of something God didn't do in them, not of anything they could have done.
Calvin teaches:
1. God wants people in hell
2. Humans can only go to hell if they have sin.
3. God decrees for people to sin and they cannot refrain
4. Conclusion: Therefore sin is something good that results in God’s pleasure.
If God has decreed to dam a person forever in eternity and God is the only one who can act on their behalf to change their plight, then God's choosing them for destruction is the first cause of their destruction, not sin. Sin is just the gun God uses to destroy the sinner.
According to Calvinist theory God hates most of humanity and is actively working to make sure they all end up in hell. That is a level of evil you should only attribute to Satan himself.
Billions of people are in hell because:
(1) they are not part of those who were Unconditionally Elected
(2) they were not granted Irresistible Grace
(3) because of sin that God unchangeably ordained by God for them to commit.
(4) because Jesus did not die for their sins.
People go to hell because of something God didn't do in them, not of anything they could have done.
Calvin teaches:
1. God wants people in hell
2. Humans can only go to hell if they have sin.
3. God decrees for people to sin and they cannot refrain
4. Conclusion: Therefore sin is something good that results in God’s pleasure.
If God has decreed to dam a person forever in eternity and God is the only one who can act on their behalf to change their plight, then God's choosing them for destruction is the first cause of their destruction, not sin. Sin is just the gun God uses to destroy the sinner.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the worldand therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world
1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone not exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.
Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).
We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.
So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.
I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of many .
In 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.
Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
As we see above the Apostle Paul says we are to pray for " ALL " people everywhere even for the " kings in authority" and then uses the same word in the same context of " ALL " people with Jesus giving His life as a ransom for all.
You cannot have ALL mean two different things in the context of the passage. That is once again being dishonest with the text and reading ones doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis
As seen in my posts I have plenty to say from scripture that opposes Calvinism. :)
hope this helps !!!
1 John 2:15-17-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the worldand therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world
1 John 5:19- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone not exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.
Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).
We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.
So if the above truth from 1 John 2:2 which is clear as to the biblical meaning is all inclusive not exclusive ( Gods elect Jew/Gentiles) which comes from ones dogma/doctrine ( calvinism) and not Scripture and specifically in 1 John makes me a non calvinist then I'm here to official renounce my association with that group.
I'm all about the TRUTH never dogma, never the doctrines of men, never to win friends, but to only uphold the Truth in Gods word from its context. And the context here is in clear opposition to the teaching of many .
In 1 John. World NEVER means Jew/Gentiles in the epistle but means all of the inhabitants of the world /cosmos who are ungodly , where the lust of the flesh, the pride of life and the lust of the eyes come from and the god of this world the evil one the spirit of antichrist , the spirit of falsehoods rules and reigns in all of those inhabitants in opposition to God.
Its that world whom Christ made propitiation.
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
As we see above the Apostle Paul says we are to pray for " ALL " people everywhere even for the " kings in authority" and then uses the same word in the same context of " ALL " people with Jesus giving His life as a ransom for all.
You cannot have ALL mean two different things in the context of the passage. That is once again being dishonest with the text and reading ones doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis
As seen in my posts I have plenty to say from scripture that opposes Calvinism. :)
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Jesus taught a provisional atonement not a limited atonement.
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.
hope this helps !!!
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.
hope this helps !!!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:
Limited atonement is unbiblical
1-He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).
2-He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).
3-He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).
4-He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).
5-He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).
6-He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).
7-He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).
8-He died for MANY not few (Matthew 20:28).
9-He died for the WORLD (John 6:33,51;
John 1:29 and John 3:16).
10-He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).
11-He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).
12-He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).
13-He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).
14-He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).
hope this helps !!!
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