The 144,000 before God at the end.

[TribulationSigns]

How can you know what those passages in Revelation mean since you don't understand what metaphors, symbols, analogies, and allegories mean? You probably think the locusts of Rev.9 are about monsters, like some idiotic Hollywood movie.

Of course NOT! I do not get interpreation from Hollywood, but from Scripture, The Word of God that interprets itself. So now tell us, do YOU know exactly what the locusts of Revelation 9 represent in Scripture that can hurt those men who have not yet sealed (saved) by God in His congregation? And why?

Rev 9:3-6
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

What do you think God is actually talking about here? Let hear this from you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You give evidence of your lack of ability to read again.

ALL... ten virgins had OIL IN THEIR LAMPS as written...

Matt 25:3-4
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
KJV

That idea that the five foolish virgins "took no oil with them" means they did not take a SPARE VESSEL OF OIL with them like the five wise virgins did! They all have OIL that was in their lamps. But only five of them took a SPARE VESSEL OF OIL with them. It's as simple as that.

False interpreation.

Mat 25:1-4
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
(2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(4) But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

The kingdom of heaven is the New Testament congregation of Israel where ten virgins are. The virgins represent those God has called into His Church. "Many are called, few are chosen", remember? They all have lamps. The wise virgins already have the oil in their lamps but the foolish NEVER had the oil with them to begin with! God is not talking about a "spare vessel of oil" as you speculated.

The oil represents the Holy Spirit that seals the Elect of the Congregation. The foolish virgins did not have the Holy Spirit because they have not yet sealed by God. They are the unsaved professed Christians in the church. They are the very ones who are going to be hurt by the locusts of Revelation 9!

Again who do you think the locusts represent in Scripture, and how do they hurt the professed Christians and why?

Think carefully!

 

[Davy]

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The "sheep" is about Christ's faithful Church. The "goats" are about the unbelievers. That dividing ONLY happens AFTER the tribulation when Jesus has already returned to this EARTH and is sitting upon the throne of His inheritance, David's throne, which is an earthly throne. Thus those above Matt.25:33-34 verses are at the start of Christ's future "thousand years" reign timing.

1 Thes 4 does not show the sinners gathered. Only saints.

Matt 25 is separate and sinners are also brought to be excluded from the kingdom..

We are ALL... sinners according to God's Word (Galatians 3:22). The difference with those in Christ is that Jesus forgives us our sins when we repent and ask Him. So the sins of Christ's faithful are covered by Christ as long as we remain faithful in Him. But those who do not believe on Jesus Christ, they will be held accountable for their sins, every one of their sins, and thus in spiritual nakedness with nothing to cover them.

Matthew 25, about the "sheep" and "goats" I've already explained per the written Scripture. The "sheep" represent Christ's faithful Church STILL ALIVE on earth when He comes to gather them to Himself. The "goats" are the wicked and unbelieving.

And here is what you left out of that Matthew 25 Scripture about the sheep and goats...

Matt 25:31-34
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

"When the Son of man shall come in His glory" = Jesus' future coming to EARTH to gather His faithful Church that is still on earth. There is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE shown with that, but instead just the opposite, because He has not gathered His "sheep" yet at this point in time, which is when? At the end of the "great tribulation". Jesus' 2nd coming is what ENDS the future "great tribulation". There is NO secret coming for the Church written of before that.

The "holy angels" that come with Jesus are His angels in Heaven today. Jesus brings them from Heaven with Him when He comes, pointing also to 1 Thess.4 with His bringing the 'asleep' saints that are resurrected; and He brings them with Him when He DESCENDS to the earth.

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

That "And before Him shall be gathered all nations", shows WHERE these "sheep" will be gathered from when Jesus returns. These "sheep" are His faithful Church that will remain alive on earth to the day of His future coming, and they will be "caught up" to Jesus per 1 Thess.4:17. That is HOW Jesus will separate these 'sheep' from the "goats" OUT OF ALL NATIONS. That "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4:17 is what your false pre-trib rapture doctors call the 'rapture', but it ain't prior to the trib, as this Matthew 25 Scripture easily reveals it only happens right here, on the day of Christ's future coming to TAKE REIGN over ALL nations, which means the great trib is ended by the time of this event.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
KJV

Those ordained to inherit the Kingdom from the foundation of the world is about ALL of Christ's faithful Church. Those believers who fall away to the coming false-Messiah that comes first in place of Jesus Christ shall not... inherit the Kingdom., but shall be cast to the "outer darkness" where there will be wailing (crying) and gnashing of teeth (teeth clacking due to crying). There those unfaithful believers will remain throughout Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His faithful Church.

 

[Davy]

Matt 24 says saints taken, then a thief, then a drunken servant...

NOPE! Nothing written there in Matthew 24 about the Church being "taken". You are ADDING that to the Matt.24 Scripture because that is what you have been wrongly... taught to do by your false pre-trib rapture preachers.

The only ones mentioned in Matth.24 being 'taken' are those left outside of the ark of Noah, so if you think those represent Christ's Church with a rapture, then that is a SICK idea, because those outside the ark were all destroyed!

1 Thes 4-5 says saints taken, then a thief, then a drunken servant....

WRONG again! 1 Thess.4 says nothing about Christ's idea of the symbolic "thief" coming. Those ideas of the symbolic "thief" and the drunken is from Matt.24 and Mark 13. So you can't even keep those ideas straight which reveals you actually do not know Bible Scripture, which means YOU LACK BIBLE STUDY!

And I really hope you are not actually an unbelieving Jew or member of the Masonic Lodge that has come here to push the false pre-trib rapture theory to purposefully mislead many believers on Jesus Christ. Those don't really know The New Testament Scriptures, and do a lot of guessing like you do, but strangely, they well understand the false ideas of man's false pre-trib rapture doctrine.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Those who try and ADD... the final 70th "one week" of Daniel 9:27 to Jesus' Ministry ARE DOING BLASPHEMY AGAINST CHRIST JESUS!

How absurd.

The reason is because Jesus NEVER made no 7 year covenant

Jesus Christ DID confirm a covenant with His People but it was not 7 literal years as most people think.

nor will He ever place an IDOL ABOMINATION inside the temple at Jerusalem which is what that Dan.9:27 verse is about!

Calm down. And read the Scripture carefully:
Dan 9:27
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Yes the "he" in verse 27 speaks about Jesus Christ, Thy Messiah the Prince per context. Christ was cut off from the living, not for Himself, but for the transgressions of His people. The very people of this Prince (Messiah) that shall come, are the people of congregation Israel, including Jews and Gentiles of the Old and New Testament. Not about your so-called antichrist who will sign upon 7 years peace treaty with national Israel.

Now you insisted that Christ never set up the abomination of desolation? Really? Read what God says:

Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Mat 23:37-38
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Daniel 9:26 is referring to the desolation of the OLD TESTAMENT CONGREGATION at the Cross where he was cut off. But He rebuilt it in three days where Christ is now a chief cornerstone of that rebuilding - the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION - the church! Therefore, the desolation of Daniel 9:27 refers to the CHURCH, the temple of God. This is where the abomination of desolation spoke of in Daniel. So how did Christ set desolte in his Church? This is where the language of sacrifice and offering for salvation through Christ ceasinig because all Elect has been secured (read Revelation 7:1-4), The church testimony for salvation is finished (Revelation 11:7), the church being killed. Because of the overspreading of abomination (apotasy - great falling away) that st and in the Temple of God (New Testament congregation the church), they shall make the temple desolate where Christ allows as a judgment upon the unfaithful church. Even until the consummation which is the Second Coming. Till the end come, and judgment be poured out upon the unfaithful church WHO make it desolate. It will remain desolate until the end when Christ returns.

Selah!

And... the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person" is who that Daniel 9:27 verse is about!

This is not how we read Daniel 27. Nowhere God was talking about a third party or evil man to be the one confirm a covenant! you make it up to fit your flawed doctrine. Not according to the CONTEXT of Daniel 9:24-27 which talks about Messiah the Prince and HIS PEOPLE, Israel. Nothing about the involvement of the evil prince here. You are reading into Scripture.

This is why the FALSE JEWS OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN try to claim the Daniel 11 Scripture has already been fulfilled, and they refuse to address that "vile person" as the role of the FINAL ANTICHRIST AT THE END OF THIS WORLD!

Typical false Dispensationalism doctrine. The vile person of Daniel 11 have nothing to do with Daniel 9:27, becaue you do not understand who he is that God talked about. The vile person is not "one supernatural man" you thought. Let read Scripture:

Dan 11:21
(21) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

2Co 11:13-15
(13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
(14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
(15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The vile person is every false apostles, and deceitful workers who is going after the working of Satan! They are the false prophets and Christs that "obtain the kingdom" by their flatteries! Not one man but MANY! Here is a hint for you. In God's eyes, they are the ___________ that can hurt those people who have not yet been sealed by God in His kingdom, Revelation 9. Hope you paid attention.

Thus I am not ignorant of Satan's devices used by His servants of the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE JEWS, BUT ARE NOT!

Christ did not talk about physical Jews here. He is talking about false prophets and christs who claim to be spiritual Jews in Christ, but they are not. They are of the devil because they are going after the working of Satan. You got the wrong Jews here. :-)

 

[Davy]

Enoch(righteous) taken up before wrath, Noah(righteous) taken up before wrath, Lot(righteous) taken out before wrath...

Davy says Church taken AFTER wrath....LOL.

That's yet ANOTHER BIBLE SCRIPTURE you don't know, just what the "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about...


You're going to get a FREE BIBLE LESSON about that "wrath" right here, IF you pay attention...

1 Thess 5:1-9
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Apostle Paul is speaking of the SIGNS of the events of the END leading up to Christ's future coming to gather His Church, and punish the wicked and deceived. Those at the Church of Thessalonica Paul had no need to cover all that, because he said they already knew them (those future events written in The Old Testament first).

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

On the 6th Vial of Revelation 16:15, Jesus warned His Church that was still not yet gathered, that He comes "as a thief", and for His to keep their garments (of white), lest they appear spiritually naked in shame. That is PROOF FROM LORD JESUS, that His coming to gather His Church had not happened yet at that 6th Vial!

Your false pre-trib rapture preachers instead claim Jesus gathers His Church by the time of Rev.4, and then they say stupid things like the Church is not mentioned after that in Revelation. Well, Jesus is speaking directly to His Church in that Rev.16:15 verse within the 6th Vial timing! And that reveals once again the pre-trib rapture doctrine is a LIE against God's written Word.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

When who... says that, "Peace and safety"? the wicked and deceived during the coming "great tribulation" time. Daniel 8 and 11, and Revelation reveal the Antichrist ("little horn") will come to power as king over all nations, and destroy USING PEACE; and even that craft will prosper by his hand. Thus the deceived will be claiming that "Peace and safety" has come for the whole... world once that false-Messiah appears on earth first to work that false peace, and great signs and wonders and miracles.

And when the symbolic "thief" (representing the surprise of Christ's coming in the clouds), it will be then that "sudden destruction" will come upon those who will be claiming world peace and safety!

That means the false pre-trib rapture authors like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye have it all wrong, as they are NOT aware that the time of the "great tribulation" is going to be a time of WORLD PEACE AND SAFETY, yet a false peace, all per God's written Word. Those authors, like you, are instead spirutually drunken on the false pre-trib rapture ideas of men, and don't really know what God's Word teaches about the END.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Per Paul, Christ's faithful Church are NOT be deceived by those events. The "day of the Lord" which Paul links to the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church, is to be recognized within the ballpark of events leading up to Christ's future return on the last day of this world. Christ's Church is not to be deceived by these events. Thus those in Christ are NOT... to be spiritually asleep about these events like those claiming "Peace and safety" will be. And thus knowing about the "times and the seasons" from God's Word is how the faithful Church reveals they do heed and keep what God's written Word says, instead of men's philosophy being used to twist His Word.


7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

There it is, Paul uses the idea of spiritual drunkeness for the deceived that will claim that "Peace and safety", their not knowing what the time of the end they will be in.

Right now we are in what Jesus called "the beginning of sorrows" in Matthew 24. That is NOT the "great tribulation". The "great tribulation" starts with the coming false-Messiah showing up and placing the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matt.24:15). Today's Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have to build their 3rd temple first before that will happen.

When that false-Messiah does show up in Jerusalem, playing GOD, Rev.13:4-8 reveals ALL nations will be under that false one for 42 months, which is the latter 1260 days period of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27, and with the placing of the abomination per the Daniel 11:31 Scripture. That Rev.13 Scripture also reveals that false one will be given power over Christ's saints for that 42 months, and that means Christ's Church STILL HERE ALIVE UPON THIS EARTH.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Finally, that "wrath" that you ill spoke of, since the false pre-trib rapture preachers wrongly teach that above "wrath" is Satan's wrath, when IT IS NOT. That "wrath"above is GOD'S CUP OF WRATH POURED OUT ON THE 'LAST DAY' of this world, on the final 7th Vial of Revelation 16! That... is the "sudden destruction" Paul spoke of that will come suddenly upon those who claim 'peace and safety', i.e., that the NEW WORLD ORDER has finally come and is completed!

Guess where... in God's Word those Truths about the END were first written? Not in The New Testament, but in The Old Testament, like in the Book of Isaiah which includes a section of Chapters that some Bible scholars call 'The Apocalypse of Isaiah'. God gives strong details of how the wicked and deceived will be fooled about the events of the very end when the "sudden destruction" comes upon them on the "day of the Lord", which is the last day of this present world. And that is where... Apostle Paul is pulling from in this 1 Thess.5 chapter.

 

[Davy]

As long as I don't call my Bible a metaphor like you do....

Now you are MOCKING God Himself and His Word, because He uses many... parables and metaphors in His Word. If you had even read The New Testament Scripture by Jesus Himself, you would easily know this FACT.

But the more falseness you keep throwing out, and your show of lack of reading New Testament Scripture, even simple Gospel Scripture, I now have strong doubt that you are even a Christian. The unbelieving Jews don't study The New Testament Scriptures, so they are ignorant of their meaning, as you are showing.

 

[Davy]

Matt 24...
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left....

Per Jesus in Luke 17:36-37 when His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" of where those would be 'taken' to, Jesus showed those are taken to where the FOWLS of Satan will FEAST ON THEM! So that is NOT about Christ's faithful Church! Thus there is NO 'taken' idea in Matt.24 about the Church.

 

[Davy]

I definitely don't understand your idea of the saints being decimated by the wrath of God along with the sinners during the GT.

The "wrath" which Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5:9 said that those in Christ are NOT appointed to, is about GOD'S WRATH UPON THE WICKED AND DECEIVED ON THE LAST DAY, NOT THE TRIBULATION TIME.

All the Vials of Rev.16 are about the idea punishing the beast with wrath, but the FINAL CUP OF GOD'S WRATH which will cause the "sudden destruction" upon those who claim, "Peace and safety", will be the 7th Vial that is poured out into the AIR, ending this present world. And that... is the specific... "wrath" event that Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Thess.5:9!

So what's up with your ability to think? Can't you grasp that when the wicked and deceived are claiming "Peace and safety", and then after that will come the "sudden destruction" upon them, that destruction event is the "wrath" Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.5:9? Can't you stay with the subject and topic Paul is covering in that 1 Thess.5:9 chapter long enough to realize what specific "wrath" event Paul is talking about?

But I well know HOW the false pre-trib rapture LIARS teach that 1 Thess.5:9 "wrath"; they INTENTIONALLY SKIP all the 1 Thess.5 verses before that 9th verse! So you deserve... to be deceived by those false preachers, if you cannot even read and understand those 1 Thess.5:1-8 verses where Paul set the SUBJECT AND TIMING of the "wrath" he was speaking of linked to the "day of the Lord" and that "sudden destruction".

 

[Davy]

Is this your excuse to hide in your bunker from helping those under the wrath of God during the GT?

I don't have to be concerned with God's consuming fire on the last day when the "sudden destruction" comes upon the wicked and deceived on that "day of the Lord". My soul is under Christ's Ark of protection. And persecution will ONLY come from Satan's host and those deceived, like yourself.

Yeah, read and heed the following, because at this point in time, you reveal you will be the type that will have even your LOVED ONES delivered up to the New World Order because they will REFUSE to bow to it or the false-Messiah that will be here for the time of "great tribulation"...


Rev.6 on the 5th SEAL and at the end of Rev.12 reveal that some of Christ's elect will give a TESTIMONY FOR JESUS AGAINST THE BEAST at the very END of this world (for the "great tribulation" time).

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV


Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

That is where you are right now, being prepared by Satan's servants to turn in some of your own... family that refuse to accept the false-Messiah that comes first that YOU will wrongly believe is Lord Jesus Christ. That is what your false pre-trib rapture preachers are going to get for you. And when Jesus does return to destroy that false-Messiah, like Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2, then you will be among those who will be in shame, wishing for the hills to cover you, and for the mountains to fall on you (Luke 23:27-31; Revelation 6:16).

 

[Davy]

I think that you don't think the Great Tribulation is that great.

You don't even know... what kind of time the "great tribulation" is going to be, nor just whom it will affect, and how. Your haughtiness is going to do nothing for you except get you in trouble with God The Father and God The Son.

By the way, do you believe Jesus of Nazareth is GOD?

 

[Davy]

Brethren in Christ -- here is HOW the "great tribulation" will affect Christ's faithful Church, and the deceived and wicked.

And mind you, the deceived will include many believers on Christ that fall away and will be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ that appears prior to Christ's coming, that false one working miracles to deceive with (Matt.24:23-26; Rev.13:11-17).


The "great tribulation" will affect 2 ways:

1. upon the wicked and deceived:
These will be deceived, and will even include many believers that fall away and do not heed Christ's and His Apostle's warnings about the END.

As per my previous posts, the coming false-Messiah is to work miracles on earth that will deceive the whole... world (except Christ's very elect), and cause the deceived to believe He is GOD having come, and thus as Jesus Christ. (Matt.24:23-26; Revelation 13:11-17).

The great apostasy ("falling away" of 2 Thess.2:3), HAS NOT HAPPENED YET TODAY. Many preachers are deceived as to how that "falling away" is actually linked to the next 2 Thess.2:4 verse of the coming false-Messiah that will work those great signs, wonders, and miracles which Jesus warned about in Matt.24:23-26, and that Apostle John warned about with the coming "another beast" of Rev.13:11-17 (same false-Messiah) that will work those signs and lying wonders, and miracles.

And THAT FUTURE GREAT TRIBULATION event when that false-Messiah shows up in today's Jerusalem is WHAT Paul's "falling away" (apostasy) event is actually about. Instead, many of today's preachers are deceived into thinking Paul's "falling away" idea is simply how many stop attending Church and putting money in the plate, or get wrapped up in the ways of the world, basically the thing Jesus showed in His parable of the sower with the deceived throughout Church history.

In reality, the great "falling away" will happen only when the false-Messiah shows up working great signs and wonders, fooling the majority of the world into believing he is The Christ having returned. Those on Satan's false pre-trib rapture will especially be in this group of deceived, along with the wicked, and will even turn in their own family members that refuse to get on board with believing Christ has come to rapture them away when that time of "great tribulation" starts.


2. The "great tribulation" upon Christ's Very Elect:

These of Christ's VERY elect represent those that listen to Jesus with His warnings of the events of the END for the "great tribulation", even about His elect being delivered up at the end to give a TESTIMONY FOR HIM against the beast.

These are the saints mentioned on the 5th SEAL that must suffer for Christ as those souls under the alter did, for giving a TESTIMONY FOR JESUS CHRIST.

Those of us in this group CANNOT BE DECEIVED by that coming false-Messiah, nor by ANY preacher or false teaching, nor by any spirit or angel. As written in Revelation 13:8 and Ephesians 1, these had their names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. The Father and Son have direct influence over these so that they remain not deceived, and in His service.

Thus these are faithful to Christ, EVEN TO THE DEATH. As Lord Jesus said, and it would seem that ONLY His elect heed what He said, is to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, but to fear HIM (The Father) Who can destroy both body (spirit body) and soul at the future "lake of fire" (Matthew 10:28).
__________________________________________________________________


But how do those on Satan's false pre-trib rapture react to the coming "great tribulation"? Do they have the "patience of the saints" that Jesus commanded per Rev.14:9-12? Are they willing to take up their cross for Lord Jesus and suffer the coming "great tribulation", as He said the whole world will hate His elect, and persecute us? No, those on the false pre-trib rapture doctrine are taught to be COWARDS FOR CHRIST, which is something He hates.

Lord Jesus wants His faithful Church to MAKE A STAND by The Holy Spirit against the coming false-Messiah beast king and his coming one-world kingdom and one-world religion controlled from Jerusalem. When some of Christ's true elect are delivered up at the end to give a TESTIMONY FOR JESUS against them, that is going to really ire Satan and his children on earth, and that is when he will seek to totally destroy God's people once and for all. And that is when LORD JESUS CHRIST will step in, ending this present world, and destroy Satan's army and wicked.

So WHICH group do you want to associate with brethren in Christ, those who are deceived that will wrongly worship the first supernatural one claiming to be Messiah, and will enjoy the wealth of priviledges that false-Messiah will provide for you during the "great tribulation" like Daniel 8 shows? and being a COWARD against Christ, not listening to His warnings and what to do, just because of being in love with your material things?

Or will you make a STAND against that coming pseudo-Christ and those who support him, by being willing to be delivered up to give a TESTIMONY FOR JESUS against the beast during the time of "great tribulation"? Which one bellow should we strive after...

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

Mark 8:35
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
KJV

 

[Davy]

How absurd.

Not absurd, but reveals simply how Satan's servants that have crept into some pulpits have deceived... many believers, like yourself, into claiming the events of Dan.9:27 were events Lord Jesus did when He did not.

Jesus Christ DID confirm a covenant with His People but it was not 7 literal years as most people think.


Calm down. And read the Scripture carefully:
Dan 9:27
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Don't tell me to calm down you white-washed wall living on men's stupid doctrines. God rebuke you in your vain attempt to talk down to me.

Jesus did NOT make any 7 year covenant with anybody! If your stupid false doctrines you follow allowed you to even read the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person" who makes the "league" in Jerusalem, you might have begun to understand that is about that seven year confirming of the covenant of Dan.9:27! as that will be part of the re-establishing of sacrifices and temple worship in Jerusalem for the END. That is what the Dan.11 chapter of what the "vile person" (final Antichrist) will do at the end of this world. And your false host of Satan's teachers instead tell you Jesus fulfilled all that? CRAZY, they are BLASPHEMERS! You don't have a clue who you are listening to that say Jesus fulfilled that at His 1st coming.

Now you insisted that Christ never set up the abomination of desolation? Really? Read what God says:

Dan 9:26
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

There you go again, following those false preachers installed by the "synagogue of Satan".

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Jesus was "cut off" at the end of the 69th symbolic week. How? By His crucifixion.

The "prince" there represents a TYPE FOR "antichrist", and was the Roman general Titus whose army destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in 70A.D..

That "end" is about the FINAL Antichrist at the END of this world, as that idea of a "flood" is not about a literal flood, but a symbolic one, i.e, the "water as a flood" that comes out of the serpent's mouth after the symbolic woman of Revelation 12:15-17. God actually uses that flood as a metaphor for the end in several places in His Word. Those "desolations" are thus about the END, not back in 70 A.D. that you are wrongly taught.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" has to be picked up in the previous verse with that "prince" representing a TYPE for the final Antichrist that will come at the END of this world.

The rest of your post is mere speculation, like a monthly magazine from the SDA church.

 

[Davy]

Not metaphors, but SIGNS in Rev....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:


99% literal and 1% signs.

I hope you don't think stop signs are metaphors.

That could get messy.

That's just silly ideas showing you don't understand a lot... of English words. YOu'd have an excuse if your first langauge was not English, but somehow, I don't think that's true.

 

[Davy]

No oil means they had extra oil???

No money means you have extra money???

I see lamps without oil, not extra oil.

You make stuff up on the fly, Davy.

You only make excuses for your lack of education.

 

[Davy]

I'm going to stop you right there. I'm going to suggest you do something that may offer you some light into Hebrew literature. Here is the full passage of Daniel 9:24-27.

No need to try and school me on that, I don't need any extraneous Hebrew lessons to reveal what those Daniel 9:24-27 verses proclaim. And if you think just by going into the Hebrew there that will show you everything meant in those verses, then you deceive yourself, because God uses certain metaphors in that which serve as anchor points. And I notice often that many brethren don't pay attention, or even grasp when God uses a symbol in His Word to point to other Scripture.

The previous Dan.9:25 verse established the start time of the 70 weeks, with the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah's coming, with 7 and 62 weeks. But notice the next verse 26 gives MORE DETAIL about when Jesus was "cut off", the end point of His Ministry thus ending...

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That in red above -- Jesus was cut off at the END of the 69th week, by His crucifixion. That still left the final 70th "one week" of Daniel 9:27 unfulfilled, even to this day.

That in green -- the Roman general Titus and his army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.

That in purple -- that "flood" is NOT about a real flood. It is a symbol God used in His Word in several places linked with the final Antichrist. Even in Rev.12:13-17 it was used symbolically with "water as a flood" which the serpent casts out of his MOUTH after the symbolic "woman" that keep God's commandments and have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. Those "desolations" are not simply about the destructions of 70 A.D., but instead about the desolations that the final Antichrist will cause in Jerusalem for the very END of this world.

Have you been taught to just skip all these uses of that symbolic "flood"?

Isa 8:7-8
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
KJV

Jer 46:6-10
6 Let not the swift flee away, nor the mighty man escape; they shall stumble, and fall toward the north by the river Euphrates.
7 Who is this that cometh up as a flood, whose waters are moved as the rivers?
8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.
9 Come up, ye horses; and rage, ye chariots; and let the mighty men come forth; the Ethiopians and the Libyans, that handle the shield; and the Lydians, that handle and bend the bow.
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
KJV

Amos 8:8-9
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
KJV

Amos 9:5
5 And the Lord GOD of hosts is He That toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
KJV

Nah 1:8-10
8 But with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue His enemies.
9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.
10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
KJV

Have you not noticed many of those symbols using a "flood" is for the very END of this world, and not just about Old Testament history?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

That "he" above per grammar must be picked by that previous one spoken of in the verse prior. That was the "prince", the Roman general Titus who represented a TYPE for the final Antichrist. This means the REST... OF THE DANIEL 9 weeks prophecy MUST BE ABOUT THE ANTICHRIST, and NOT Lord Jesus Christ.

That idea of the confirming of the covenant is explained... in the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person". The "vile person" makes a "league" with a small group in Jerusalem, and he comes to power PEACEFULLY, something Antiochus IV did not do. That "vile person" is then shown being against the "holy covenant". So that means the old covenant with sacrifices exists in that time. Then that "vile person" ends... the daily sacrifice and instead places the "abomination that maketh desolate" in a rebuilt Jewish temple.

Antiochus IV did that in 165 B.C., but there's a PROBLEM with claiming that already fulfilled that Daniel 11 Scripture...

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
KJV

Jesus warned about the placing of that "abomination of desolation" from Daniel 11:31 about 200 years AFTER Antiochus IV had been dead!

And Jesus was giving the 7 SIGNS of the END of this world there in Matthew 24 while upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples. Those SIGNS there parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6 given to His Church about the END of this world.

So please, don't try those 'I know Hebrew, so I have a more accurate interpretation' jokes at me. I don't buy into all that. If God had not wanted Gentiles to understand His Word, then He would never have allowed His Word to leave the language of Biblical Hebrew. But what actually happened? When the Jews went into captivity to Babylon, they lost use of old Hebrew and instead took up Aramaic! Even the old type of Hebrew characters changed, and the Jews created a philosophical work they use for their religion of Judaism called the Babylonian Talmud, which are just sage writings! Many corruptions happened to the Jews of the "house of Judah" during their captivity to Babylon.

 

[Davy]

Of course NOT! I do not get interpreation from Hollywood, but from Scripture, The Word of God that interprets itself. So now tell us, do YOU know exactly what the locusts of Revelation 9 represent in Scripture that can hurt those men who have not yet sealed (saved) by God in His congregation? And why?

Rev 9:3-6
(3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
(4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
(6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

What do you think God is actually talking about here? Let hear this from you.

God defined what those 'locusts' represent back in the Joel 1 chapter. He even called them "My great army which I sent among you" in Joel 2.

 

[Davy]

False interpreation.

Mat 25:1-4
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
(2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(4) But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

The kingdom of heaven is the New Testament congregation of Israel where ten virgins are. The virgins represent those God has called into His Church. "Many are called, few are chosen", remember? They all have lamps. The wise virgins already have the oil in their lamps but the foolish NEVER had the oil with them to begin with! God is not talking about a "spare vessel of oil" as you speculated.

The oil represents the Holy Spirit that seals the Elect of the Congregation. The foolish virgins did not have the Holy Spirit because they have not yet sealed by God. They are the unsaved professed Christians in the church. They are the very ones who are going to be hurt by the locusts of Revelation 9!

You haven't read that Scripture carefully. ALL... ten virgins had OIL in their lamps, but the 5 foolish virgins failed to bring a SPARE VESSEL of OIL to go with their lamps.


Matt 25:7-8
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, "Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out."
KJV

Can't you guys READ? How can you TRIM a lamp if it isn't first burning? And how... is it they said their lamps had GONE OUT?

It means the 5 FOOLISH VIRGINS had OIL in their lamps, but NOT enough.

I guess there's a lot of young generation here that have never 'trimmed' an oil lamp. To 'trim' a lamp means to RAISE THE WICK UP SO IT BURNS BRIGHTER. Thus by trimming automatically suggests the lamp was already lit and burning LOW. And they went to RAISE (trim) the wick to make it burn brighter because the Bridegroom was coming!

Don't bother me about this again, you grammar school dropouts.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Not absurd, but reveals simply how Satan's servants that have crept into some pulpits have deceived... many believers, like yourself, into claiming the events of Dan.9:27 were events Lord Jesus did when He did not.

He did. You are spiritually blind to this Truth, Davy.

Don't tell me to calm down you white-washed wall living on men's stupid doctrines. God rebuke you in your vain attempt to talk down to me.

The Lord Judges and I am comfortable with that. :)

Jesus did NOT make any 7 year covenant with anybody!

Since when a covenant in Daniel 9:27 last 7 years? Do you not realize that the covenant of verse 27 has everything to do with God's plan for His People in verse 24? Nothing is said about an evil prince. Silly.

If your stupid false doctrines you follow allowed you to even read the Daniel 11 chapter about the "vile person" who makes the "league" in Jerusalem, you might have begun to understand that is about that seven year confirming of the covenant of Dan.9:27!

LOL! Please read the Scripture carefully before you make false doctrine out of it:

Dan 11:21-23
(21) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
(22) And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
(23) And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

Do you even know who is the prince of the covenant in verse 22? The league in verse 23? Who do you think they are? Who are the small people?

Show me what you know with Scripture.

as that will be part of the re-establishing of sacrifices and temple worship in Jerusalem for the END.

Where does it say in Scripture that it has tso do with the re-establishing of physical sacrifice? Show me the chapter and verse. And no you got wrong Jerusalem. Do you not realize that the church is spiritually Jersualem, the city of Light in the New Testament? Sigh!

That is what the Dan.11 chapter of what the "vile person" (final Antichrist) will do at the end of this world.

No, the vile person is Satan working through men in God's congregation, the league! Not your one antichrist fantasy.

And your false host of Satan's teachers instead tell you Jesus fulfilled all that? CRAZY, they are BLASPHEMERS! You don't have a clue who you are listening to that say Jesus fulfilled that at His 1st coming.

What teachers? I did not get the Truth from them. I get it from Scripture itself by studying it.

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Boy, you do not get it. This is talking about MESSIAH THE PRINCE. The prince is Jesus Christ, not an evil person. The Jews of the Old testament congregation, per context, is the people of the Prince, Christ. They were the ones who Christ prophesied will come and destroy the temple which is His body, their congregation! Didn't you read the Scripture:

Joh 2:18-21
(18) Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
(20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
(21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

Therefore, the verse 26 is talking about warfare within the Old Testament Congregation of Israel when Christ went to the Cross. This is the flood (overflowing) upon Israel of which at the end of it, desolations are determined. Don't be misled by the word, "flood," it's meaning can be seen in verses such as Isaiah 8:8, or Daniel 11:10. A excellent verse to get a feel for what it means in Daniel 11:26.

Dan 11:26
(26) Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

When the Bible talks about an army, war, and the flood or overflowing. This is what is in view! It means it is a great overflowing army in THIS war. The armies are those who fought against Christ, and to the end of the war, they are left desolate and cut off, but to the remnant, he returns with Mercies. God did not talk about Romans or the army of the Antichrist. He is talking about His congregation, the army of God.

Was there war at the cross? Indeed there was. When the Bible says that they were all against Christ, that is War. To be at enmity against Christ, is to be at war with Him. Just as to be reconciled in Christ, is to be at Peace with Him. The Flood is the overwhelming or overflowing of those who came against Christ. There was none that stood with Him. We see this in Messianic Psalms, such as:

Psalms 69:2
(2) I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the FLOODS OVERFLOW Me. I am weary of crying: My throat is dry: Mine eyes fail while I wait for My God. They that hate me without a cause (John 15:25) are more than the hairs of Mine head: They that would destroy Me, being Mine enemies wrongfully are mighty:...

This is the overflowing flood of the army that came against Christ, and which made an end of City and Sanctuary that it no longer represents the kingdom of God. It's those (Jews, his people) who fought against the Messiah. His Enemies, those that Hated Him. They were "AS" a flood! And they made war until the end, and desolations were determined upon national Israel as a representative of the Kingdom of God. The kingdom was taken from them! They are judged of God. Blindness had happened to them. The Prophet and the vision is sealed. In fact, the verse we saw in Acts 15 of rebuilding the Tabernacle of David from ITS ruins, is taken from the Book of Amos.

Amos 9:11
(11) In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old.

When Acts says this scripture is fulfilled (Acts 15:16) as it is written, it tells us that we don't have to look elsewhere for the fulfillment. It is fulfilled in Christ. And the rebuilt out of ruins is now the New Testament congregation that Christ gave the kingdom representative to! Again, notice the language of verse 5 when talking about this judgement of Israel.

Amos 9:5
(5) And the Lord God of hosts is He that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a FLOOD: and shall be drowned, as by the FLOOD of Egypt.

At the cross, Christ freed US from bondage to Satan just as God freed Israel from bondage to Pharaoh. And as the armies who fought against Israel were drowned then, so those who fight against Israel (Christ) at the cross come up like a flood, and are drowned in God's judgment. It is God who has left this city desolate because of their warfare with him. They would destroy the City and the Temple, and God will bring judgement upon them, and raise it up again in 3 days. He will build again the tabernacle that is fallen, and raise again the ruins, with living bricks, not physical bricks! Merciful God returns with compassion, to the rebuilding of the tabernacle.

Isaiah 40:1
(1) Comfort ye, comfort ye My people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to JERUSALEM, and cry unto her, that her WARFARE is accomplished, and that her INIQUITY is pardoned: for she HATH RECEIVED DOUBLE for all her sins.

When we study this chapter carefully, we see that this speaks of the coming of Christ and what He did for Israel by the cross, 'not' of a (supposed) future event like your flawed doctrine. That's another important fact. Jerusalem was Judged, and she was at war, but that warfare ends with the death of Christ (for those truly Saved), and the rebuilding of the tabernacle in Him with living stones. It is a spiritual kingdom. The time for the Salvation of Israel is not future, but NOW. Her warfare is accomplished. She has been reconciled to God. Not Literal Jerusalem, or a Literal city! There is no way we can conclude that verse is talking about a literal city or literal warfare ending? The Time for Israel to be Saved is right now, just like the rest of the nations. Because the Israel in view, is 'The Israel of God' made up of all those in Christ. Not national Israel We are comforted in the rebuilding of 'that' Jerusalem, and 'that' Sanctuary. Not a City in the Middle East, nor a collection of literal bricks and mortar in a Temple made by Man's hands. The Rebuilding is in Christ, of a Temple made without hands. And Blessed are they who were bestowed Grace to be able to see these truths.

Do you?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You haven't read that Scripture carefully. ALL... ten virgins had OIL in their lamps, but the 5 foolish virgins failed to bring a SPARE VESSEL of OIL to go with their lamps.

Nothing in Scripture was talking about spare vessel of oil. Those with enough oil do show forth the light when the signs of the midnight cry is made hearalding his coming. The foolish virgins (professed Christians) lack the oil for the light, that they m ight see in the darkness. And it is very dark. here is the thing, it is not a sign not to know, but it is a sin to reject and refuse to receive the love of the truth.

The five wise virgins who though sleep, have oil already to light their way. They had the spirit of gladness, to ultimately rise up (Revelation 11:11) and reach their destination. They possessed oil in their lamps in the first place.

The foolish virgins however don't have the oil to reach their destination. The unsaved professed Christians never have the oil (holy spirit) to begin with! They lip-serving that they are Christians but they never were regenerated with the Holy Spirit. They were not sealed by God, remember?! Therefore, they do not have the Holy Spirit (oil) to begin with. There is a difference:

Mark 14:37-42

• "And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
• Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
• And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
• And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
• And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
• Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand."

Three times. The number three in Scripture represents the will and purpose (The Spiritual Significance of Numbers in Scripture). In their sleeping, God works out his purpose in bringing judgment upon the church where many are marked of the beast and their names blotted out of the Book of life. Meaning the names didn't belong there in the first place, and were justly removed. And so like the fall of Old Testament Israel, the church in the New Testament falls (being no better than the Jews before them). And it is only by the grace of God that 5 of the virgins are saved from this judgment. But I digress.

Needless to say, in Mark, Christ is using sleep Spiritually to represent the church as Spiritually Babylon and dead, and His people are called to rise and meet the bridegroom. The same Spiritual picture when His people are told to come out of Babylon so that they are not partakers with her in her sins. This is a great mystery or secret about the fall of the church that many would not believe could happen. Because who would have thought this once great city could be brought to ruin (Desolation) because of abominations allowed in her. Therefore she sleeps, has died, and many die with her. Yet those who wake, as the Disciples before them, see the abominations, and flee to the mountain retreat, and are saved. A royal mess in the church that only those who see will escape.