Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days and 2 future raptures separated by 1000 years+?

[claninja]

Support your claim or i will take it we are looking at another false allegation from you.

Since you don’t want to answer and seem to be dodging a simple question for some strange reason, then I’ll just make the assumption that yes, you you appear to be arguing - “not be hence more an infant of days and old man after” should be understood as “no longer will an infant become like an old man” AND you seem to be arguing that “not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old a hundred years die” should be understood as “no longer will a child reach one hundred and die”

Why are you moving “not fulfill his days” from stanza 1 to stanza 2 and applying it to the child?

By doing this you change the meaning from “no longer will an infant live but a few days nor an old man not fulfill his days” to “an infant will not become an old man”.

By doing this you also change “a child dies at a hundred years old” to “no longer will a child die at a hundred”.

I can’t find one English translation that agrees with this change.

 

[claninja]

So, where have I "moved words around to render Isaiah 65:20 differently" and where is my "rearrangement of the text"?

You moved the second “lo” from the first stanza and applied to the 2nd stanza.

The second “lo” belongs in the first stanza

1.) “no longer will an infant live but a few days, nor will an old man not live out his days

2.) “for a child will die at 100 years old, a sinner will be accursed at 100 years old”

BUT You moved “lo” to the 2nd Stanza making it read

1.) no longer will an infant become an old man

2.) no longer will a child die at 100 years old

 

[WPM]

You moved the second “lo” from the first stanza and applied to the 2nd stanza.

The second “lo” belongs in the first stanza

1.) “no longer will an infant live but a few days, nor will an old man not live out his days

2.) “for a child will die at 100 years old, a sinner will be accursed at 100 years old”

BUT You moved “lo” to the 2nd Stanza making it read

1.) no longer will an infant become an old man

2.) no longer will a child die at 100 years old

I moved no words. It reads the way it reads in the original.

 

[claninja]

I moved no words. It reads the way it reads in the original.

You clearly moved “lo”, and it doesn’t read that way in the original, nor does any English version translate it that way.

 

[WPM]

You clearly moved “lo”, and it doesn’t read that way in the original, nor does any English version translate it that way.

There are no punctuation marks in the original Hebrew Bible texts. Our understanding of Hebrew grammar and the context of the text determines where we place punctuation marks today.

 

[WPM]

You clearly moved “lo”, and it doesn’t read that way in the original, nor does any English version translate it that way.

Synonymous parallelism is found in Isaiah 65:17.

• For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
• And the former shall not (לֹֽא־ or Lo') be remembered, nor (לֹֽא־ or Lo') come into mind.

This is clearly telling us that the old corrupt temporal decaying arrangement is going to be replaced by the new perfect eternal regime. The promises in this prophecy in regard to the new heavens and new earth is not more of the same to dread but rather the opposite – a brand new arrangement free of death and decay.

What is more: the same Hebrew word לֹֽא־ (or Lo') that is found twice in Isaiah 65:20 meaning “no” or “not” are also used twice in Isaiah 65:17. Again it is a negation. It is telling us what will not happen.

This is articulating in mere human terms what eternity is like for the believer. It is like an infant being an infant for a hundred years. Of course, in this life that would be an impossibility. But this is what the new earth will be like. Man can in a small way relate to such an analogy, as it is done in language that he can in some way comprehend. As excellent as the KJV is, the original does not actually say or intimate (as it does) that “the child shall die an hundred years old.” This in fact is not correct or originally satisfactory.

 

[WPM]

Since you don’t want to answer and seem to be dodging a simple question for some strange reason, then I’ll just make the assumption that yes, you you appear to be arguing - “not be hence more an infant of days and old man after” should be understood as “no longer will an infant become like an old man” AND you seem to be arguing that “not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old a hundred years die” should be understood as “no longer will a child reach one hundred and die”

Why are you moving “not fulfill his days” from stanza 1 to stanza 2 and applying it to the child?

By doing this you change the meaning from “no longer will an infant live but a few days nor an old man not fulfill his days” to “an infant will not become an old man”.

By doing this you also change “a child dies at a hundred years old” to “no longer will a child die at a hundred”.

I can’t find one English translation that agrees with this change.

We should base our interpretation of Isaiah 65:17-25 on what is clearly taught in the Revelation 21 (the fuller revelation) about the new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17 explains: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”

Revelation 21:1 & 4 parallels, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away ... for the former things are passed away."

Isaiah 65:18 "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

Revelation 21:2 agrees: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Isaiah 65:19-20 literally reads: “and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her. Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after. Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die.”*

*I have included my literal word-for word rendering to give us an accurate comparison.

Revelation 21:4 correlates, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying"

Isaiah 65:20b says: “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

Revelation 21:8 agrees: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

 

[Zao is life]

When someone believes what they want to believe, as most Premills do, there isn't much you can do to convince them to change their minds. You'd have to change their minds from believing what they want to being willing to believe what scripture teaches no matter whether it agrees with what they want to happen or not.

The Pharisees wanted the Messiah to come and then destroy their enemies (the Roman empire) immediately. So, that's what they believed would happen. Nothing could change their minds because their desire to see what they wanted to happen come to fruition trumped their desire to just accept what scripture teaches.

When someone believes what they want to believe, as most Amills do, there isn't much you can do to convince them to change their minds. You'd have to change their minds from believing what they want to being willing to believe what scripture teaches no matter whether it agrees with what they want to happen or not.

The Pharisees wanted the Messiah to come and then destroy their enemies (the Roman empire) immediately. So, that's what they believed would happen. Nothing could change their minds because their desire to see what they wanted to happen come to fruition trumped their desire to just accept what scripture teaches.

 

[Davidpt]

I admit I don't fully understand the meaning of Isaiah 65:20. But I do understand the meaning of verses 17-19. And in verse 18 it clearly and plainly says this---But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. The key words being this---for ever. There is no way that's not meaning for all of eternity. But how can one be expected to be glad and to rejoice for all eternity in that which He creates, meaning this---I create new heavens and a new earth---I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy---if most Premils don't even have the new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem being the same new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22?


It is undeniably absurd that the NHNE and Jerusalem meant in Isaiah 65:17-19 are not the same NHNE and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22. And this in verse 18 undeniably proves why---be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. One can't do that for ever unless what He is creating in these verses last for ever. That's just plain common sense. I don't know what it is about plain common sense where some interpreters just like to throw it out the window all together and would rather put their interpretations above it? But this is not a Premil only thing, as if only Premils place their interpretations above plain common sense at times, but Amils never do that at times nor do Preterists. Ok, if you say so.

 

[WPM]

I admit I don't fully understand the meaning of Isaiah 65:20. But I do understand the meaning of verses 17-19. And in verse 18 it clearly and plainly says this---But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. The key words being this---for ever. There is no way that's not meaning for all of eternity. But how can one be expected to be glad and to rejoice for all eternity in that which He creates, meaning this---I create new heavens and a new earth---I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy---if most Premils don't even have the new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem being the same new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22?


It is undeniably absurd that the NHNE and Jerusalem meant in Isaiah 65:17-19 are not the same NHNE and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22. And this in verse 18 undeniably proves why---be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. One can't do that for ever unless what He is creating in these verses last for ever. That's just plain common sense. I don't know what it is about plain common sense where some interpreters just like to throw it out the window all together and would rather put their interpretations above it? But this is not a Premil only thing, as if only Premils place their interpretations above plain common sense at times, but Amils never do that at times nor do Preterists. Ok, if you say so.

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Isaiah 65:19-25? Nowhere! Premils force their beliefs into the sacred text where it does not belong. This is called eisegesis not exegesis. Text, context and co-text do not seem to matter to them.

Whatever way you look at it, this demolishes Premil, as it totally contradicts their corrupt age blighted with sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions. That is why Premils are all over the place when it comes to the arrival of the NHNE. The reality is: it comes after the millennium. Check Revelation.

 

[WPM]

I admit I don't fully understand the meaning of Isaiah 65:20. But I do understand the meaning of verses 17-19. And in verse 18 it clearly and plainly says this---But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. The key words being this---for ever. There is no way that's not meaning for all of eternity. But how can one be expected to be glad and to rejoice for all eternity in that which He creates, meaning this---I create new heavens and a new earth---I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy---if most Premils don't even have the new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem being the same new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22?


It is undeniably absurd that the NHNE and Jerusalem meant in Isaiah 65:17-19 are not the same NHNE and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22. And this in verse 18 undeniably proves why---be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. One can't do that for ever unless what He is creating in these verses last for ever. That's just plain common sense. I don't know what it is about plain common sense where some interpreters just like to throw it out the window all together and would rather put their interpretations above it? But this is not a Premil only thing, as if only Premils place their interpretations above plain common sense at times, but Amils never do that at times nor do Preterists. Ok, if you say so.

Isaiah 65:19 says,

• the voice of weeping shall be (Lo') no more heard in her,
• nor the voice of crying.”

Once again, we come across the word Lo' in this text. This time we learn that there will be no more “weeping”/“crying.” This is further grounds for believing this phrase in Isaiah 65:20 relates to the eternal state (after the millennium) and that we are looking at the fact there will be no more death or ageing in the new heavens and new earth. This confirms that there will never again be sadness or sorrow in the kingdom that follows Christ’s coming. Christ will render the undertaker eternally redundant. Commenting on this passage Robert B. Strimple, says, “were it literally true that a man who died at a hundred would be considered a mere youth (65:20), then tears would be shed at his passing.”

This raises another difficulty for the Premillennialist; there can be no more tears during the whole duration of their supposed future millennial kingdom. Not another tear from a mother in childbirth, nor another cry from a child receiving correction, no more weeping from the penitent sinner under conviction, no more tears from those suffering illnesses, no more wailing during bereavement. Evidently, crying and tears either terminate on the new earth or they don’t. In the Premillennial new earth, tears not only continue but abound. In fact, as long as sin persists tears accompany its continued existence.

If there is death there will be “weeping” and “crying.” Right? Or are these myriads of millennial phonies so stiff-necked and hard hearted that they lose the ability to cry?

If there is no sorrow and crying, how then could there be death? Are people just going to be totally immune to the pain and gravity of death? Are people going to be completely insensitive during this supposed future millennial kingdom to the point where no one even cries when someone dies? Premillennialists interpret this passage in such a way that would suggest that there will be weeping on the new earth, thus contradicting Isaiah 65:19. But this cannot be so. We all know that there is no contradiction here. Such a proposal would be absurd.

• Is there no more child birth?
• Does no one have a heart attack?
• Does anyone have kidney stones?
• Does anyone have shingles?
• Does nobody stub their toe in Jerusalem?
• Does anyone accidentally stand on a nail?
• Are there any motor bike, car, train or airplane crashes?
• Does no one cry at the loss of a loved one?

Does death not provoke some type of emotion in these people? Are none of these millennial dwellers touched in their heart when they see Jesus? Are they so hard-hearted that they cannot express any emotion in this staid Premil millennium?

Premils say salvation continues but is there no more tears of repentance?

This statement refutes the Premil understanding of Isaiah 65 and shows the contradictory nature of that school of thought. Regardless of how diligently they try, the Premil cannot fit Isaiah 65:17-21 into a supposed future millennium. It would be easier to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Crying is terminated in Isaiah 65:17-21, the bondage of corruption is eliminated.

In one breath you argue there is death in your sin-cursed millennium and the next not?

 

[Zao is life]

I admit I don't fully understand the meaning of Isaiah 65:20. But I do understand the meaning of verses 17-19. And in verse 18 it clearly and plainly says this---But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. The key words being this---for ever. There is no way that's not meaning for all of eternity. But how can one be expected to be glad and to rejoice for all eternity in that which He creates, meaning this---I create new heavens and a new earth---I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy---if most Premils don't even have the new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem being the same new heavens and new earth and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22?


It is undeniably absurd that the NHNE and Jerusalem meant in Isaiah 65:17-19 are not the same NHNE and Jerusalem in Revelation 21-22. And this in verse 18 undeniably proves why---be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create. One can't do that for ever unless what He is creating in these verses last for ever. That's just plain common sense. I don't know what it is about plain common sense where some interpreters just like to throw it out the window all together and would rather put their interpretations above it? But this is not a Premil only thing, as if only Premils place their interpretations above plain common sense at times, but Amils never do that at times nor do Preterists. Ok, if you say so.

What Amils will never understand is that exposing the holes in the Premil view of having mortals in the millennium and a NHNE following 1,000 years after the return of Christ, does not patch up any of the multitude of holes in Amillennialism.

And what most Premills don't understand is the converse of the above.

My observation in what I see in these Amill/Premill debates is that Amills especially believe what they want to believe and are incapable of admitting even one of the multitude of holes in their theory. Premills at least have more respect for the authority of scripture, though they also ignore the hole mentioned in the OP of this thread.

Which is why none of them are able to grasp that the Revelation 20 is talking about the first 1,000 years of the ages of the ages / NHNE - it goes way over their heads, and therefore they are incapable of fully understanding what the second death is and why the close of the millennium has Satan being released again and permitted to go out deceiving Adam's resurrected descendants with the same by deception by which Adam was deceived.

Amills have invented a binding of Satan 2,000 years ago which is no binding at all, so that makes it even less likely that their blindness will be lifted.

 

[WPM]

What Amils will never understand is that exposing the holes in the Premil view of having mortals in the millennium and a NHNE following 1,000 years after the return of Christ, does not patch up any of the multitude of holes in Amillennialism.

And what most Premills don't understand is the converse of the above.

My observation in what I see in these Amill/Premill debates is that Amills especially believe what they want to believe and are incapable of admitting even one of the multitude of holes in their theory. Premills at least have more respect for the authority of scripture, though they also ignore the hole mentioned in the OP of this thread.

LOL. How about identifying one hole in Amil that we can address? You cannot address any of the many holes we present on this forum. The Premil silence is deafening. All we are getting is broad sweeping unsubstantiated statements.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL. How about identifying one hole in Amil that we can address? You cannot address any of the many holes we present on this forum. The Premil silence is deafening. All we are getting is broad sweeping unsubstantiated statements.

The many holes in Amill have been exposed all right. But you just ignore them and then deny they are holes, and invent new interpretations of scripture which are a totally inaccurate reflection of scripture with regard to each one of the holes in Amil. Like for example with Satan being bound.

 

[WPM]

The many holes in Amill have been exposed all right. But you just ignore them and then deny they are holes, and invent new interpretations of scripture which are a totally inaccurate reflection of scripture with regard to each one of the holes in Amil. Like for example with Satan being bound.

What about Satan' being bound? Put evidence on the table instead of your continual false charges.

 

[Zao is life]

Isaiah 65:19 says,

• the voice of weeping shall be (Lo') no more heard in her,
• nor the voice of crying.”

Here are some more holes in the view held by the majority of Premils for you (that you mentioned in your OP) - but they still do not forbid a millennium following the return of Christ which is the first thousand years of the ages of the ages - something that goes way, way over your head because your understanding of scripture has been partially blinded by Amil theology.

The structure of the Revelation does not support a NHNE following 1,000 years after the return of Christ:

END OF THE AGE In Revelation 7:13-17 we read about a great multitude, which no man could number, that came out from great tribulation, which they experienced before the return of Christ, and below is what else John saw regarding them: The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 7:13-17).

BRIDE OF CHRIST ALL THINGS NEW Revelation 21:2: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." The same promises made to those who came out from great tribulation are made to the bride of Christ, New Jerusalem, in a New Heavens and Earth which John saw "descending out of heaven from God.": The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 21:2-4).

BRIDE OF CHRIST Revelation 19:7-8: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

"It is Done!" ​

ARMAGEDDON "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. --- And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. --- And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, --- It is done! "---​ (Revelation 16:15-17)

ALL THINGS NEW "And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me, --- It is done ---.​ I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:5-8)

TREE OF LIFE "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie. I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let the one hearing say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:12-17).

ALL THINGS NEW

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17).

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life [zoe]; and the life [zoe] was the light of men." (John 1:3-4)

"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new" "And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful."
(Revelation 21:5).

The last three chapters of the Bible are a repeat of the conditions and events of the first three chapters of the Bible - with one exception:

Satan's deception of Adam & Eve results in Adam's death, and his expulsion from Eden
(Genesis 3:22-24) (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

Satan's deception of the Gog & Magog nations of the human race results in the second death and the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8). Only the faithful remain. (Revelation 20:7-10)

In-between Adam's death and the second death came the Resurrection of the dead:

"I am the Resurrection [anastasis] and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25)​

First death: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).

Second death: "Death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14).

There will be no second sacrifice for sins made and no second resurrection from the second death.

God is life.
From eternity to eternity only God has life in Himself.
The Son of God has (eternal) life in Himself. *

* Created human beings do not have (eternal) life in ourselves. *
​

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

There was NO DEATH before Adam's death. If created immortals are incapable of dying then Adam would not have died.

THE SERPENT:

"You shall not surely die."
(Genesis 3:4)​

The Theology of many main-stream Christian churches: It is impossible for those who are in Christ, who have been given eternal life in Christ, to die a second death following the resurrection of the body, because following the resurrection of the body, all will be immortal, "and it is impossible for immortals to die".

The Bible:

(1) "He (Christ) alone possesses (His own) immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16); and

(2) "God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

JESUS:

"The one who overcomes,
that one will be clothed in white clothing. And
I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
(Revelation 3:5-6).​

(Do not hear what man-made theology, built upon the doctrines of men, based on interpretations of the Bible understood by fallible human intellect, says to the churches - hear what the Spirit says to the churches).

--- "He who has an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes
will not be hurt by the second death." ---
(Revelation 2:11)​

 

[Zao is life]

What about Satan' being bound? Put evidence on the table instead of your continual false charges.

You just proved my point. Multiple scriptures and evidence have been put on the table countless times for you regarding Satan never yet having been bound, but you merely deny the proofs and change the meaning of the scriptures so that scripture complies with your Amil theology whenever it's been put on the table.

I'm not putting the real evidence on the table again. You will just start changing scripture so as to interpret scripture in such a way as to attempt to have scripture comply with your Amil theology and beliefs.

 

[WPM]

Here are some more holes in the view held by the majority of Premils for you (that you mentioned in your OP) - but they still do not forbid a millennium following the return of Christ which is the first thousand years of the ages of the ages - something that goes way, way over your head because your understanding of scripture has been partially blinded by Amil theology.

The structure of the Revelation does not support a NHNE following 1,000 years after the return of Christ:

END OF THE AGE In Revelation 7:13-17 we read about a great multitude, which no man could number, that came out from great tribulation, which they experienced before the return of Christ, and below is what else John saw regarding them: The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 7:13-17).

BRIDE OF CHRIST ALL THINGS NEW Revelation 21:2: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." The same promises made to those who came out from great tribulation are made to the bride of Christ, New Jerusalem, in a New Heavens and Earth which John saw "descending out of heaven from God.": The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes. (Revelation 21:2-4).

BRIDE OF CHRIST Revelation 19:7-8: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

"It is Done!" ​

ARMAGEDDON "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. --- And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. --- And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, --- It is done! "---​ (Revelation 16:15-17)

ALL THINGS NEW "And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me, --- It is done ---.​ I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:5-8)

TREE OF LIFE "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie. I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let the one hearing say, Come! And let him who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:12-17).

ALL THINGS NEW

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:16-17).

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life [zoe]; and the life [zoe] was the light of men." (John 1:3-4)

"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new" "And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful."
(Revelation 21:5).

The last three chapters of the Bible are a repeat of the conditions and events of the first three chapters of the Bible - with one exception:

Satan's deception of Adam & Eve results in Adam's death, and his expulsion from Eden
(Genesis 3:22-24) (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19).

Satan's deception of the Gog & Magog nations of the human race results in the second death and the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8). Only the faithful remain. (Revelation 20:7-10)

In-between Adam's death and the second death came the Resurrection of the dead:

"I am the Resurrection [anastasis] and the (eternal) life [zoe]!" (John 11:25)​

First death: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22).

Second death: "Death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14).

There will be no second sacrifice for sins made and no second resurrection from the second death.

God is life.
From eternity to eternity only God has life in Himself.
The Son of God has (eternal) life in Himself. *

* Created human beings do not have (eternal) life in ourselves. *
​

-- He (Christ) alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

There was NO DEATH before Adam's death. If created immortals are incapable of dying then Adam would not have died.

THE SERPENT:

"You shall not surely die."
(Genesis 3:4)​

The Theology of many main-stream Christian churches: It is impossible for those who are in Christ, who have been given eternal life in Christ, to die a second death following the resurrection of the body, because following the resurrection of the body, all will be immortal, "and it is impossible for immortals to die".

The Bible:

(1) "He (Christ) alone possesses (His own) immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16); and

(2) "God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

JESUS:

"The one who overcomes,
that one will be clothed in white clothing. And
I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
(Revelation 3:5-6).​

(Do not hear what man-made theology, built upon the doctrines of men, based on interpretations of the Bible understood by fallible human intellect, says to the churches - hear what the Spirit says to the churches).

--- "He who has an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes
will not be hurt by the second death." ---
(Revelation 2:11)​

What are you talking about? Can you even present a coherent argument? It seems not. Make your point - one at a time.

 

[WPM]

You just proved my point. Multiple scriptures and evidence have been put on the table countless times for you regarding Satan never yet having been bound, but you merely deny the proofs and change the meaning of the scriptures so that scripture complies with your Amil theology whenever it's been put on the table.

I'm not putting the real evidence on the table again. You will just start changing scripture so as to interpret scripture in such a way as to attempt to have scripture comply with your Amil theology and beliefs.

LOL. More unsubstantiated noise. What are your arguments? I have seen none so far. The time for producing is finally here. Present your evidence, if you have it. All you do is make statements. That is the sum-total of your position.

I suspect you have nothing, that is why you have nothing to bring to the table.

 

[claninja]

Synonymous parallelism is found in Isaiah 65:17.

• For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
• And the former shall not (לֹֽא־ or Lo') be remembered, nor (לֹֽא־ or Lo') come into mind.

This is clearly telling us that the old corrupt temporal decaying arrangement is going to be replaced by the new perfect eternal regime. The promises in this prophecy in regard to the new heavens and new earth is not more of the same to dread but rather the opposite – a brand new arrangement free of death and decay.

What is more: the same Hebrew word לֹֽא־ (or Lo') that is found twice in Isaiah 65:20 meaning “no” or “not” are also used twice in Isaiah 65:17. Again it is a negation. It is telling us what will not happen.

This is articulating in mere human terms what eternity is like for the believer. It is like an infant being an infant for a hundred years. Of course, in this life that would be an impossibility. But this is what the new earth will be like. Man can in a small way relate to such an analogy, as it is done in language that he can in some way comprehend. As excellent as the KJV is, the original does not actually say or intimate (as it does) that “the child shall die an hundred years old.” This in fact is not correct or originally satisfactory.

We should base our interpretation of Isaiah 65:17-25 on what is clearly taught in the Revelation 21 (the fuller revelation) about the new heavens and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17 explains: “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”

Revelation 21:1 & 4 parallels, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away ... for the former things are passed away."

Isaiah 65:18 "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

Revelation 21:2 agrees: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Isaiah 65:19-20 literally reads: “and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her. Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after. Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die.”*

*I have included my literal word-for word rendering to give us an accurate comparison.

Revelation 21:4 correlates, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying"

Isaiah 65:20b says: “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

Revelation 21:8 agrees: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

None of this changes the fact that you moved “lo” in order to change the meaning of the passage. This is where I disagree. I don’t necessarily disagree with you about revelation “revealing” beyond Isaiah 65.

Additionally, I don’t think the meaning should change to fit your framework, as I believe the authors intent was to use prediluvian/patriarchal/covenantal imagery in his mentioning of a future state.

“No more will an infant live only but a few days nor an old man not live out a full life”. “A child shall die at 100 years, a sinner a hundred years accursed”

• None will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span. - exodus 23:26
• Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. - genesis 25:8
• You will come to the grave in full vigor, like sheaves gathered in season. Job 5:26
• So Noah lived a total of 950 years, and then he died Genesis 9:29