Surely Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days and 2 future raptures separated by 1000 years+?

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TrevorHL

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Greetings again WPM,
When is the last or final day of the last days?
The last days of Judah's commonwealth occurred when the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken into captivity. We are in the times of the Gentiles now, in two senses. The Gentile powers have political and military dominance over the world, and had this dominance over the land of Israel and Jerusalem, but we are in the last days of Gentile times, and the kingdoms of this world will be replaced by the 1000 year kingdom of God. There is also a contrast between the almost exclusive period of the Jewish participation in the Gospel, but now the Gospel was opened up to the Gentiles. The tide is about to turn and a significant remnant of the Jews will be converted when Christ returns.
Which NHNE is Satan's little season in?
  1. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there sin and sinners?
  2. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there dying and crying?
  3. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there disease and decay?
  4. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there corruption and crime?
  5. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there riots and rebellion?
  6. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there war and terror?
  7. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there Satan and his minions?
Nonsense questions. Please read Isaiah 65:17-25 and Psalm 72, and Acts 3:19-21 and many other prophecies that speak of the blessedness of the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

WPM

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Greetings again WPM,

The last days of Judah's commonwealth occurred when the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken into captivity. We are in the times of the Gentiles now, in two senses. The Gentile powers have political and military dominance over the world, and had this dominance over the land of Israel and Jerusalem, but we are in the last days of Gentile times, and the kingdoms of this world will be replaced by the 1000 year kingdom of God. There is also a contrast between the almost exclusive period of the Jewish participation in the Gospel, but now the Gospel was opened up to the Gentiles. The tide is about to turn and a significant remnant of the Jews will be converted when Christ returns.

Nonsense questions. Please read Isaiah 65:17-25 and Psalm 72, and Acts 3:19-21 and many other prophecies that speak of the blessedness of the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

LOL. More avoidance. I wonder why?
 

WPM

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Greetings again WPM,

The last days of Judah's commonwealth occurred when the Temple was destroyed and the Jews were taken into captivity. We are in the times of the Gentiles now, in two senses. The Gentile powers have political and military dominance over the world, and had this dominance over the land of Israel and Jerusalem, but we are in the last days of Gentile times, and the kingdoms of this world will be replaced by the 1000 year kingdom of God. There is also a contrast between the almost exclusive period of the Jewish participation in the Gospel, but now the Gospel was opened up to the Gentiles. The tide is about to turn and a significant remnant of the Jews will be converted when Christ returns.

Nonsense questions. Please read Isaiah 65:17-25 and Psalm 72, and Acts 3:19-21 and many other prophecies that speak of the blessedness of the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

  1. Which NHNE is Satan's little season in?
  2. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there sin and sinners?
  3. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there dying and crying?
  4. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there disease and decay?
  5. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there corruption and crime?
  6. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there riots and rebellion?
  7. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there war and terror?
  8. In your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth, is there Satan and his minions?
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again Spiritual Israelite,
The first resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV): 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Why is that? Are you afraid to even address what I said? Just saying this is weak. Tell me why you think it's unconvincing? I showed the word "many" being used to refer to all of something and you can't even bring yourself to address that? Talk about unconvincing and shallow.
That is a mistake because you are clearly wrong. The word "many" does not mean "some, but not all". The word can be used to refer to some, but not all of something or it can be used to refer to all of something like in the passage I referenced. Why can you not acknowledge that fact?
I lived many days in Sydney, about 34 years. I have lived many years in the Lake Macquarie area, about 47 years. The English word all means all and the English word many means many.
Why do you not even bother addressing the passages I use to support my claims? You would rather just cherry pick scripture and ignore the rest? The phrase "the last time" is also used to refer to the same time period and it just is a phrase that contrasts the New Testament era after Christ's first coming from the Old Testament era before Christ came.
I am content with my understanding of the last days of Isaiah 2:1-4 and the last days of Hebrews 1:1-2.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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WPM

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Greetings again Spiritual Israelite,

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV): 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


I lived many days in Sydney, about 34 years. I have lived many years in the Lake Macquarie area, about 51 years. The English word all means all and the English word many means many.

I am content with my understanding of the last days of Isaiah 2:1-4 and the last days of Hebrews 1:1-2.

Kind regards
Trevor
Premillennialism cannot abide biblical scrutiny. That is why Premils run when their beliefs are confronted. You cannot even answer simple questions.

You have to duplicate everything to support your position. Talk about confusion.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Greetings again Spiritual Israelite,

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (KJV): 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
You posted this in response to the first resurrection without any commentary. Why? Can you tell me how you interpret this passage?

It indicates that Christ's resurrection itself was the first in order and next in order are "they that are Christ's at his coming". So, the resurrection that you think is the first resurrection is actually the second resurrection in order according to Paul.

I lived many days in Sydney, about 34 years.
So, the many days that add up to 34 years that you have lived in Sydney refers to all of the days that you lived in Sydney, right? So, the word many does not mean "some, but not all" there.

I have lived many years in the Lake Macquarie area, about 51 years.
So, the 51 years, which you refer to as "many years", are all of the years that you have lived in the Lake Macquarie area. So, again, the word "many" is not used as meaning "some, but not all" there.

The English word all means all and the English word many means many.
LOL. Was the Bible written in English? No. I showed you a verse where the same Hebrew word used in Daniel 12:2 is translated as "many" is used in the sense of referring to all of the days that Abraham was in the land of the Philistines as being many and you just ignore that. Do you not want to be taken seriously then? I can't take anyone seriously who is not willing to address my points and just acts like the Bible was written in English while not wanting to even consider context or what it says in other scripture like John 5:28-29.

I am content with my understanding of the last days of Isaiah 2:1-4 and the last days of Hebrews 1:1-2.
It's unfortunate that you are content with believing something that makes it so that we can just make scripture say whatever we want it to say. If I wanted to claim that there are ten sets of "last days" in scripture if I needed to do that to fit my doctrine, then I guess you would have no problem with that based on how you interpret scripture. Two last days time periods. Two new heavens and two new earths. Two of everything, apparently. Sorry, but I just can't take that seriously.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Premillennialism cannot abide biblical scrutiny. That is why Premils run when their beliefs are confronted. You cannot even answer simple questions. You have to duplicate everything to support your position. Talk about confusion.
How can any Premill try to use 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 to support their understanding of the first resurrection when it clearly shows Christ's resurrection as being the first resurrection in order followed next in order by the resurrection of those who belong to Christ at His second coming? They turn the second resurrection into the first resurrection. It's mind boggling.
 
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WPM

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How can any Premill try to use 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 to support their understanding of the first resurrection when it clearly shows Christ's resurrection as being the first resurrection in order followed next in order by the resurrection of those who belong to Christ at His second coming? They turn the second resurrection into the first resurrection. It's mind boggling.
Exactly bro! They are digging a hole for themselves.
 

claninja

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You need to read what it says more carefully. It says "Premils must invent 2 future glorifications days and 2 future raptures separated by 1000 years+?. It does NOT say Premils must invent two resurrections separated by 1000 years".

Premills believe that those who belong to Christ are glorified (changed, made bodily immortal) on the day He comes which they obviously believe is before the thousand years. So, where does it say anything about believers being glorified 1,000+ years later as well? Nowhere. So, they have to invent that idea.

Likewise, Premills believe the rapture occurs before the thousand years. Where does Revelation 20 indicate that another rapture occurs 1,000+ years later when the fire is coming down from heaven? Nowhere. So, they have to invent that, too.

what form of premil is the OP addressing because I’m unaware of any premil belief in 2 raptures?

As to “glorification”, you appear to agree this involves the resurrection - you stated “glorified (changed, made bodily immortal)”. So if the OP is using the 2 glorification events to mean 2 resurrection events, I’m not following your counter argument of “read more carefully”

Revelation 20 literally has 2 resurrections or as you put it “glorifications (changed, made bodily immortal) separated by 1000 years.

Revelation 20:4-5 They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.


I certainly would agree if you are meaning to say that we should not primarily base our doctrine on the book.

Correct. But premils often take revelation literally and as a brand new revelation, previously unknown by the other apostles.

For example, Paul died before the Revelation. Paul’s letters don’t have the complete revelation of how the eschaton will unfold, only bits and pieces. Since revelation is the revealing of how the eschaton will actually unfold, premils will fit Paul’s bits and pieces into the fuller chronology provided by revelation.

Why would a premil interpret revelation through the lens of Paul’s incomplete eschatology? They most often dont, and therefore any argument that an amil will make by using the “bits and pieces” of Paul’s incomplete eschatology to prove amil and discount premil is often ineffective.

It’s why time after time after time, those that hold a literal view of revelation, as a revealing of how the eschaton will unfold, don’t really care if other NT passages don’t teach anything about a millennium nor 2 resurrection separated by 1,000 years —> it hadnt been revealed yet.

Sure. But, you clearly missed the point of this thread which is that Premills are not able to support their implied belief in two glorification days (two different days when the bodies of believers are changed and made immortal) and two raptures separated by 1,000+ years with scripture.

the 2 separate rapture events kind of sounds like a strawman, but maybe I’m just unaware of a form of premil that believes in 2 separate rapture events?

And if glorification is just another term for the resurrection of the body, revelation 20 does have 2 resurrections separated by 1,000 years. That would not be an “invention”.
 

claninja

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Read the Hebrew, not your heretical teachers that deny the literal physical future second coming of Christ.

I did read the hebrew and searched through English translations, I can’t seem to find any translation that agrees with your rendering of it. Maybe I missed one. Could you provide any English translation that agrees with your changing of the passage?
 

claninja

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I very much dislike how you act like you are the ultimate Hebrew and Greek expert. I know you are not. Why are you so full of yourself? At least he actually went through each word in the original text and explained how he came to his conclusions. Why are you not doing that?

In my view neither rendering supports Premill, anyway. Even in the early years of history when people lived for hundreds of years, someone 100 years old was not considered to be young. So, I believe with either rendering of the text it should be clear that the text is figuratively describing eternity when no one will age. I don't believe there will be time in eternity, but if there was, then even if 100 years go by a person is the same and doesn't appear any older because no one will age during eternity. Isaiah was describing eternity at a time when no one had any concept of it like we do now and have since the New Testament was written. So, he had to describe it figuratively in a way people back then could understand.

ah yes, the ole if I question how someone else is using Greek/hebrew then all of the sudden I’m claiming to be the “ultimate expert”. What a joke of a counterpoint.

LOL. Was the Bible written in English? No. I showed you a verse where the same Hebrew word used in Daniel 12:2 is translated as "many" is used in the sense of referring to all of the days that Abraham was in the land of the Philistines as being many and you just ignore that. Do you not want to be taken seriously then?

Careful, wouldn’t want to come off as an ultimate authority on Hebrew. Or is it only okay when you do it?


Anyways, Wpm moved words around to render Isaiah 65:20 differently in order to provide a stronger support for his framework. I’m simply not agreeing with him on his rearrangement, regardless if I agree or disagree with his framework.

That’s simply not how the Hebrew is:

Additionally, I can’t find one translation that agrees with his rearrangement amongst these 20 plus translations : Isaiah 65:20 Parallel: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
 
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WPM

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I did read the hebrew and searched through English translations, I can’t seem to find any translation that agrees with your rendering of it. Maybe I missed one. Could you provide any English translation that agrees with your changing of the passage?
This is your typical response. You are incapable of addressing the original and showing what is in error because you have nothing apart from own false teaching and heresy - denying the literal physical future coming of Christ. It is time to cough up or shut up.
 

claninja

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This is your typical response. You are incapable of addressing the original and showing what is in error because you have nothing apart from own false teaching and heresy - denying the literal physical future coming of Christ. It is time to cough up or shut up.

right, a typical response in a debate forum. Asking if you can provide any translational evidence to support your rearrangement of the text. That’s not a ridiculous request.

But Just as I thought, you can’t produce any support or evidence that agrees with your personal rearrangement of Isaiah 65:20. Instead you have to pivot to falsely labeling me a full preterist. Bravo.
 

WPM

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right, a typical response in a debate forum. Asking if you can provide any translational evidence to support your rearrangement of the text. That’s not a ridiculous request.

But Just as I thought, you can’t produce any support or evidence that agrees with your personal rearrangement of Isaiah 65:20. Instead you have to pivot to falsely labeling me a full preterist. Bravo.
Show me one single Hebrew word that I have placed out of order?

The burden of proof is with you. You made the claim.
 

claninja

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לֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֨ה מִשָּׁ֜ם עֹ֗וד ע֤וּל יָמִים֙ וְזָקֵ֔ן אֲשֶׁ֥ר
Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not be hence more an infant [of] days, an old man after

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,

you appear to be arguing - “not be hence more an infant of days and old man after” should be understood as “no longer will an infant become like an old man”

לֹֽא־יְמַלֵּ֖א אֶת־יָמָ֑יו כִּ֣י הַנַּ֗עַר בֶּן־מֵאָ֤ה שָׁנָה֙ יָמ֔וּת
Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old an hundred years die

No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

And you seem to be arguing that “not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old a hundred years die” should be understood as “no longer will a child reach one hundred and die”

is this how you are trying to frame your argument?
 

WPM

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you appear to be arguing - “not be hence more an infant of days and old man after” should be understood as “no longer will an infant become like an old man”





And you seem to be arguing that “not fulfill your days inasmuch a child old a hundred years die” should be understood as “no longer will a child reach one hundred and die”

is this how you are trying to frame your argument?
I am taking the Hebrew word for word. What words have I moved out of place, as you allege?
 
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claninja

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I am taking the Hebrew word for word. What words have I moved out of place, as you alleged.

It’s a simple yes or no, so as to make sure I didnt misunderstand you. Is that how you are framing your argument?
 

WPM

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It’s a simple yes or no, so as to make sure I didnt misunderstand you. Is that how you are framing your argument?
Support your claim or i will take it we are looking at another false allegation from you.
 

WPM

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It’s a simple yes or no, so as to make sure I didnt misunderstand you. Is that how you are framing your argument?
The basis of your argument is:

Wpm moved words around to render Isaiah 65:20 differently in order to provide a stronger support for his framework.

Asking if you can provide any translational evidence to support your rearrangement of the text.

So, where have I "moved words around to render Isaiah 65:20 differently" and where is my "rearrangement of the text"?