SALVATION OF ANIMALS
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Taken
Well-Known Member
Thank you.
I have no issue of thinking and speaking logically regarding secular things.
Regarding Spiritual things, I believe LOGIC of the CARNAL MIND, is irrelevant, and landing on the TRUTH of Spiritual things, requires a spiritual conversation.
Actually Scripture says God is Spirit and God has Spirits…
I simply repeated that, and believe that and understand that.
An Earthly man is a body, has numerous body parts, has Blood, has a soul, has a spirit and can have another different spirit, and can have NO blood, Yet, he is still an Earthly man.
Thank you again for giving up trying to convince me in opposition to a Scriptural truth.
Glory to God,
Taken
VictoryinJesus
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Agree. I don’t think it’s God who supports it. To me both sides have the same mindset: Hamas and Israel have the mindset which is bloodshed and violence. They are like brothers, of the same mind even though they spit on each other and think they are different from one another.
much like many within the church who debate over who is the worse when the mindset is the same only the imagination the comes out of that mindset may be different. It’s still of the same mind set. That is only my opinion.
I get what you mean here.
But this is where I struggle with what JWs teach. To me it also points to taking off the old man and to put on the new man created after the image of God. i don’t see how one can come out … or “put off” …or “cast off” the old man while one is being told you haven’t been selected as one called to “put on the New Man” …you have worn the earths image and now it’s time to wake up and come out from that image …having no part hating even the garment spotted by the flesh
Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
And it’s time to take off the old garment and put on the New man, the heavenly image.
That is only my opinion. I’m not trying to attack your beliefs. If I understand where you are coming from correctly… you said you are content to remain on earth and have no desire —as some chose to be in heaven. How this is home to you and it gives you comfort to read and find out you can remain on earth. I’m not trying to rob you of that.
to me taking off the image of the earth is a desire to bear the image of God instead of man. Regardless of if your place is on earth.
To me it not ditching “earth” It is no longer bearing the image of the earthy. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
It’s not about where I will be placed. Even if I remain and I am selected for earth and not heaven…still I desire to bear Gods image and not man’s image.
As you have worn the earths image ^
You will also wear the heavenly image >But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23
You say the earth will be restored and that is where you will be. But unless those chosen for earth bear the image of God which are all those attributes given of the Spirit and put off or “unclothe” all those attributes listed of men….that earth will remain in the image of man instead of in “the heavenly image” of God.
To me…there is nothing evil or prideful or arrogant or envious against “those selected for heaven” …for those selected to remain on earth to desire to bear the image of the heavenly in your place on earth. Galatians 5:22-23
I mean why would those chose to rule in heaven and teach and be overseers of those on earth, unless they are instructing those who remain of earth to bear the image of the heavenly.
What else would they be teaching in selflessness as overseers towards those on earth…if not being a model “image” of the heavenly so those on earth model “become an image” of what is above. But see…that instruction (Imo) is now …as you have worn the image of the earth…it’s time to unclothe “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings,..”
it time to unclothe, take off, cast away, or come out off: the deeds of the flesh and to bear the image of the heavenly so that you be clothed in the Fruit of the Spirit of God: clothed in the New Man created unto Fruit, bring forth fruit unto God. fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
To me it doesn’t matter who one says is the harlot
….still coming out of her is coming out of her ways. Her ways are those attitudes listed in where he says to take off the old and put on the New. You can’t come out of her…(imo) unless you disrobe of her clothing. It doesn’t matter how far you separate in location (literally) if the garment of the harlot is still the clothing worn. In my opinion to come out of “her” I’ll have to get naked and give back the clothing but then I’ll be naked and tempted to return to the harlot out of shame for being naked. Yet God puts the New Man on …therewith a promise to “be not ashamed”
^i know you see different…I’m assuming if those selected for earth give the harlot back her clothing, coming out of her, and take off the old man …that which is corruptible and put on that which is incorruptible…I don’t know why it would be seen as greedy to them to desire to “put of the heavenly” (not meaning to relocate but meaning a desire to bear fruit of the Spirit of God; which is after His image; the Heavenly image.)
I disagree …I don’t see it as greedy to as you have worn the earthy, you will wear the Heavenly ….but needful. I’m afraid to ask who are the ones who are the topic of “you will know them by their fruit”? Are they the only ones who have come out of the harlot and removed her clothing? Taking off all the garments spoken off as needing to come off?
Yes. I do think God helps. There was a time when the passage in the Old Testament about a woman having to kneel and the priest gather dirt from the temple floor and giving her bitter water to drink…disturbed me. To me it sounded like a satanic ritual. My back ground was being told how much God hates women and I had a lot of messed up thoughts towards God as thinking God is a Barbaric male chauvinist who I would and could never come near. Point is that ritual frightened me. I’ve resolved that God is not who I thought He is. I’ve resolved that I’ve believed a lot of things and bought into a lot of things and probably still do. I’ve resolved that no matter if I do not understand and I am wrong countless times a day …I am persuaded God remains good.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
animals do not rationalize and build upon information. they live by instinct.
they know hunger but cannot rationalize it. They just act.
The Bible is completely silent on this matter. Only man is spoken of going to heaven, never animals.
No a full truth!
Being born again means we become a brand new creature. Our spirits are not born again- they are merely "born".
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
not requickened- but merely quickened or made alive. As we were already alive physically and our souls were alive in our body- it was the spirit that was dead and made alive.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And He gave it to us as well. All mankind will live forever-either in heaven or the lake of fire.
immortal
im-not
mortal- capable of death
immortal-- incapable of death.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
2 Corinthians 5:6-8
King James Version
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
When a Christ follower physically dies- His body goes to ground but his soul and spirit go to be with the Lord- As Paul says.
When Jesus returns it is the tribulation saints who are resurrected.
Vse 6 verbs are in the present. Verse 8 aorist which confirms the present of verse 6
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
John 3:16 clearly states that those that believe on Him will not perish but have everlasting life. That means that those who do not believe WILL perish.
Immortality is a gift not to everyone, but to those who believe.
He has not given everyone immortality--for He alone is immortal.
Using our minds to logically deduce whether claimed doctrine is true or not is not irrelevant. Acts 17:11 (WEB):
(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Sorry but as it says in Rev. 21 before people are cast into the lake of fire, death and the grave are first cast and destroyed.
Perish, biblically does not always mean cease to exist.
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀπό (G575) and the base of ὄλεθρος (G3639)
The KJV translates Strong's G622 in the following manner: perish (33x), destroy (26x), lose (22x), be lost (5x), lost (4x), miscellaneous (2x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to destroy
- to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
- render useless
- to kill
- to declare that one must be put to death
- metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
- to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
- to destroy
- to lose .
- to lose .
Also those who take the mark in Rev. 14:
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
They have no rest and their torment ascends forever and ever. Non existence is not torment.
Also Rev. 20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What sense is bringing back to existence the bodies of the lost only to toss them into non existence again?
But the language shows us that the destruction of death and the grave is the second death so that those who go into the lake of fire suffer eternal death or torment.
Also the Antichrist and False Prophet have spent 1000 years in the lake of fire prior to this.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Beast and False prophet are humans, and spending 1000 years in the lake doesn't destroy them.
Reading all the posts, debates, and definitive positions assumed, one must ask what are they based on? The bible is mum on this subject, and the bible addresses the sinful nature, fall, and redemption of man, not animals. Furthermore, animals can't sin, so, salvation is not a viable question anyway. I love animals and my pets dearly, and hope and pray to God on their behalf, but the fact of the matter is, no one knows, and there are no answers to be found in scripture. So, debating or even discussing this topic is useless. I think it's summed up best in Ecclesiastes by the smartest man that ever lived.
Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"
Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"
Is this the verse I asked for... 2 Corinthians 5:6-8
Because there's nothing in that that Scripture that says the soul goes back to God.
What angels do on their own has nothing to do with me. If I was an angel I would be concerned with angel stuff. I'm a human and thus, I'm only interested in what involves how angels work with humans. Who cares if six of them can dance on the end of a pin when they are alone from us.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Sure. And that is WHY they can NOT SIN.
The Bible was written TO and FOR manIND, not animals, that they needed to learn how to become MADE forgiven and their soul saved and their spirit born again.
Did you forget BEFORE the BLOOD of Jesus was shed, for the Forgiveness PAYMENT of SIN…that ANIMALS BLOOD was used for 4,000 years for the SAME Purpose?
Really? Ya think the Sacrificed Animals and their BLOOD was SINFUL “and” such SINFUL Animals BLOOD was “sufficient” to be Offered to Forgive the SINS OF MAN?
Ponder within your ability to reason, HOW sin of an animal was sufficient to forgive the sin of man…Impure forgives Impure…
NONSENSE and NOT spiritual.
Natural birth is effected via a mans SEED.
Spiritual birth is effected via a Spirits SEED.
The “offspring”, is “reproduced” by it’s same KIND of thing.
God IS Spirit. What Gods SPIRIT “reproduces” IS Spirit.
Earth Animal SEEDS reproduce its same KIND.
(Bodies of Flesh with sinless Blood)
Their bodies, sacrificed, burned in fire, and eaten. Their pure Blood sacrificed for mans Forgiveness of his sins. (Before Jesus arrived ON Earth).
Man SEEDS reproduces it same KIND.
(SinFUL Bodies of Flesh and Blood)
Gods SEED reproduces it same KIND.
(Sinless spirits)
Born again “OF” the Spirit of God, is the RE-BIRTH of a mans “natural” spirit from a mans seed, to the man Receiving the SEED of God, to RE-Birth his natural spirit to a SPIRITUAL spirit.
You will remain confused in your carnal understanding, until you learn and accept what body’s, souls, spirits of man are.
Really? I can show you many videos of animals showing emotion, using tools, figuring out mazes, etc.
Never had a pet?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Scripture is Knowledge. Looking up Scripture to see IF it VERIFIES what an other is SAYING, is simply a MEANS to TRUST the SPEAKER, “IS” actually speaking the TRUTH of God.
Of course it is “reasoned” in the “mind” VERIFYING is “trustworthy”.
What does that have to do with, Spiritually Believing IN God? Nothing.
If a man DOES NOT Spiritually Believe IN God to begin with…Verifying what a man says, against the written Word of God, (of a man that does not believe IN God…is moot).
And WHY, the Scriptures, (the written Word of God), has none effect on an Atheist, for revealing belief or revealing verification.
Belief, is a Spiritual connotation.
Reasoning, is a Carnal mind connotation.
The Natural Carnal Mind is NOT suited to Believe IN the Spirit.
Can’t understand that concept FOR you.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Yes. Agree. Animals have emotions. Animals can learn routines.
Animals do not have the ability to learn about, or believe in God.
Ever try to teach an animal what WIND is? LOL…that is about as successful as trying to teach an animal what God is…
God Bless you.
Glory to God,
Taken
Interestingly, it’s Balaam’s donkey who first sees the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword in hand.
The donkey turns away from the angel multiple times, causing Balaam to become frustrated and beat her. After the third encounter with the angel, God miraculously allows the donkey to speak, and she questions Balaam why he is beating her.
Take it for what it's worth. I fully believe that donkey knew it was an angelic presence.
Taken
Well-Known Member
I believe Man and animals have souls. That man is naturally conceived in sin, naturally born in sin, naturally commits sin and requires forgiveness and Gods Offering and Power to become Made Forgiven and Sanctified.
I do not believe animals are naturally conceived in sin, are naturally born in sin, naturally commit sin, or Require Forgiveness to become Made Forgiven and sanctified.
I further believe God is Supreme Power that can give Power to whom or what and in such Manner as He Pleases.
God used His Power to Put an unknown language in the mouths of His Servants to Speak a foreign Language to the eager ears of foreign men…I don’t think it far fetched that God can, has, does use His Power in mysterious ways to accomplish His Will.
A talking animal (donkey)…why not, even men can teach certain animals to say words in human languages… parrots…! For example.
Glory to God,
Taken
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well then you tell me. What is absent from the body and present with the Lord?
Paul says it is the individual so what say you? He says when we leave our body (at death) we are present with the Lord! what leaves the body and becomes present with the Lord?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The blood of bulls and goats only covered sin, it never forgave sin as is written in Hebrews. Jesus blood paid for all OT sins of believers as He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Wow nice ad-hominem. and from a staff member no less!
Well as I do know what body, souls and spirit are, I guess I have passed the carnal misunderstanding. Maybe never to you, but then again, your word salad is very very confusing.
I await for you to show me one verse where it says a mans spirit is reborn! that very word means it was alive in the individual once, died at some point in time in the individuals life and had to be reborn.
But I will take the Apostle Paul at his word when He said we were quickened by the spirit.
Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
We both agree it was the spirit that was quickened, so now let us look at the word Paul used:
zōopoieō (Key)
Pronunciation
dzo-op-oy-eh'-o
Part of Speech
verb
KJV Translation Count — Total: 12x
The KJV translates Strong's G2227 in the following manner: quicken (9x), give life (2x), make alive (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
- to produce alive, begat or bear living young
- to cause to live, make alive, give life
- by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
- to restore to life
- to give increase of life: thus of physical life
- of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life
- metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing
Now if you can explain to me how this means make alive AGAIN; I am all ears.
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