SALVATION OF ANIMALS

[Ronald Nolette]

Boy are you Catholic or what. The dead are not alive. The dead in Christ will raise when Christ returns.

So you believe in some type of soul sleep or non existence when the body dies?

Well that is contrary to Scripture but hey you are free to believe what you want.

Paul said this:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8

King James Version

​

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And verse 8 is in the present tense not the future. so you are wrong.

Also the thief on the cross was alive and well with Jesus in paradise when they both died physically.

Also the true account of Lazarus and the rich man shows the soul and spirit live on after the body dies.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Take a nap. No concept of time. Death is a sleep.

Physically, but not for the soul or spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In what respect? Jesus made no mention of body, spirit or soul. He simply said Lazarus was sleeping, then plainly explained that Lazarus was dead. He said that he was going to wake Lazarus up from his sleep (death). That involved restoring a dead, decomposing and stinking body back to life. Lazarus' body was definitely dead; his spirit was sleeping. Surely you don't think Jesus was referring to Lazarus' body as sleeping?

Jesus wasn't talking of his body on the cross when he said, Luke 23:46 (WEB):

(46) Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.

You were good right till you said Lazarus spirit was sleeping.

When Jesus died He took the penitent thief to paradise with Him. the thief was not sleeping in spirit.

Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison.

The physically dead martyrs in Revelation souls cry for vengeance sleeping people do not have conversations.

Lazarus in Abrahams bosom was not soul sleeping.

That is a parable, a fictional story, not a true story!

Not in th eleast. Jesus said there was a man- so there was a man! Jesus was not careless with words.

This story does not compare the kingdom to anything like all parqables do.

People believed in the place of torments and Abrahams Bosom in Jesus day.

What does this supposed parable mean then? No one gives a sane answer to that.

In what respect? Jesus made no mention of body, spirit or soul. He simply said Lazarus was sleeping, then plainly explained that Lazarus was dead. He said that he was going to wake Lazarus up from his sleep (death). That involved restoring a dead, decomposing and stinking body back to life. Lazarus' body was definitely dead; his spirit was sleeping. Surely you don't think Jesus was referring to Lazarus' body as sleeping?

Jesus wasn't talking of his body on the cross when he said, Luke 23:46 (WEB):

(46) Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.​

That is a parable, a fictional story, not a true story!


Where was Jesus for the next three days after he died on the cross? Matthew 12:40 (WEB):

(40) For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

You're believing Satan's lie that we won't die, God says otherwise. Ezekiel 18:4 (WEB):

(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine. The soul who sins, he shall die.​

The heart of the earth- Jesus was buried above ground.

Now if you did some study you would find out that the heart of the earth was where the three compartments of the grave/sheol/hades/hell are.

1. Tartarus- where the angels who left heaven to have sex with women in Gen. 6

2. Place of torment- where all lost souls go.

3. Abrhams Bosom/Paradise- where the righteous souls went until Jesus ascended to heaven. The He took Paradise and its in habitants with His when He went back to heaven (Ephesians).

Bodies die, sssspirits of men are already dead until one is born again, souls are immortal.

 

[Taken]

But given your evasiveness, it is hard to know where you actually stand on this thread.

If you are unaware of my standing on this thread;

”Salvation of Animals”

Then what exactly do you think you are in disagreement with me, and debating with me?

Yes…I believe ALL souls belong to God.
Yes…I believe the LIFE in a soul, IS Gods Breath.
Yes…I believe Animals have souls.
Yes…I believe Animals have a body.
Yes…I believe a soul is given (by God) into an animals alive born body.
Yes…I believe Animals body’s die, begin decaying, return to the earth, rot, return to dust.
Yes…I believe the living soul (within a Dead Animals body), departs out of that body and that soul goes Heaven.

No…I do not believe Animal’s SIN, nor Require FORGIVENESS, of their body’s, or of their souls.

And I believe, you do not hold those beliefs…
Thus…the disagreement that you apparently did not grasp.

 

[Taken]

You were good right till you said Lazarus spirit was sleeping.

Sleeping … Napping … regarding the BODY, is with the EXPECTATION, the BODY shall arise awake.

Jesus using the TERM “SLEEP” “regarding Lazarus” when speaking to his Disciples…was a “HINT”, (Jesus was going to RAISE UP Lazarus)….
The DISCIPLES, didn’t get it…
The DISCIPLES, didn’t yet KNOW Lazarus was Bodily DEAD.
Thus…Jesus FLAT OUT SAID…Lazarus IS DEAD…(regarding his BODY).

So they ALL arrive at the town. Lazarus’ sister sees Jesus coming, runs to meet Him, is weeping because Lazarus is (bodily) dead and buried, and. SHE believed “IF” Jesus had arrived sooner, He could have prevented Lazarus’ Death.
Lazarus’ sister Mary was busy making ready (neat / tidy) for Jesus’ visit.

Jesus goes to the tomb where Lazarus’ dead body is buried and been buried for 4 days).
A crowd of mourners are present.
Jesus’ orders the rocks covering the tomb entrance to be removed.
Some of the mourners “gasp” full well knowing the horrific stench of a rotting dead body.
The rocks are removed. Jesus calls to Lazarus, by name, to rise and come forth…
AND HE DOES…
NOW, at that TIME…Jesus’ disciples get it…
Lazarus’ wasn’t taking a nap, then going to rise up. Lazarus was dead and going to be risen up BY THE POWER OF God, to resume LIVING his bodily life.

What one “should” have learned…IS God returned Lazarus’ Living Soul, BACK into his dead body, and his dead body RESUMED LIVING.

It didn’t take JESUS being there 4 days earlier, for JESUS to call up Lazarus’ to RECEIVE back into his body, his Living soul, and his BODY resume living.

Every man, AT JUDGEMENT, SHALL have his living soul (saved or not) returned to his body…(raised in glory or raised in its natural state)….that ALL will STAND before the JUDGE and Receive their Judgement and Sentence.

With that KNOWLEDGE…the understanding of calling a bodily dead man “SLEEPING”, is precisely BECAUSE…sleep denotes an expectation to rise up awake….and ALL DEAD BODY’S SHALL be risen up…their souls returned to their body’s…and they Fully Aware of the Pronouncement of
THEIR Judgement and Sentence…

Same the US founders provided…
The accused, Face their Judge, Hear their Judgement…Hear their Sentence.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Peterlag]

So you believe in some type of soul sleep or non existence when the body dies?

Well that is contrary to Scripture but hey you are free to believe what you want.

Paul said this:

2 Corinthians 5:6-8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

And verse 8 is in the present tense not the future. so you are wrong.

Also the thief on the cross was alive and well with Jesus in paradise when they both died physically.

Also the true account of Lazarus and the rich man shows the soul and spirit live on after the body dies.

Jesus did not say... Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus said... Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And then there's this...

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Cassandra]

Was the thief on the cross, who was promised would be in paradise with the Lord, taken there sleeping or to go to sleep? Likewise, was the rich man, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, asleep or was he in torments of fire immediately upon death?

Jesus wasn't even in paradise that day, and the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.
While we are talking about Lazarus, let's look at what Jesus said:

As for the Rich Man and Lazarus
Jesus is speaking of the Jewish nation---they had Moses and the Prophets, but they didn't pay any attention to them.
Here are the 5 brothers. Pharisees Essenes, , Saducees and Herodians and Zealots
From the parable:

Luke 18:27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ (Doesn't God forbid the living speaking to the dead, so why would he ask Lazarus to go to his brothers?)
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

. They still were not convinced when Lazarus was resurrected.

John 11: 11-14
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
[12] Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. [13] Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. [14] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And when He arrived , He saw Martha who said:

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So Jesus said He was going to awaken Lazarus, and Martha said she knew he would be resurrected on the last day.!!!!

If I had been Lazarus, I would've been madder than a wet hen if I'd been pulled out of the Kingdom to come back here, but he wasn't brought back from Heaven. Jesus awoke him like He said He was going to , and not a word from Lazarus about Heaven.

 

[Taken]

Jesus wasn't even in paradise that day, and the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.

Two different events.

Jesus’ soul was in paradise on HIS bodily death day.

Jesus’ body had not been killed, when Lazarus died, when rich man died.

You mention “parable”… BECAUSE?

What do you believe “THAT PARABLE Jesus spoke about Lazarus MEANT”?

Fake story…or LITERAL event?

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If you are unaware of my standing on this thread;

”Salvation of Animals”

Then what exactly do you think you are in disagreement with me, and debating with me?

Yes…I believe ALL souls belong to God.
Yes…I believe the LIFE in a soul, IS Gods Breath.
Yes…I believe Animals have souls.
Yes…I believe Animals have a body.
Yes…I believe a soul is given (by God) into an animals alive born body.
Yes…I believe Animals body’s die, begin decaying, return to the earth, rot, return to dust.
Yes…I believe the living soul (within a Dead Animals body), departs out of that body and that soul goes Heaven.

No…I do not believe Animal’s SIN, nor Require FORGIVENESS, of their body’s, or of their souls.

And I believe, you do not hold those beliefs…
Thus…the disagreement that you apparently did not grasp.

Well when we get there we will find out, won't we. time to move on.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus did not say... Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Jesus said... Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And then there's this...

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

No He did not- that is foolish grammar. You are merely aping the Watchtower line.

Yep that means the bodies of the dead, their souls are already in heaven as Paul said.

For someone who claims to be a sinless teacher, you have a lousy grasp of how to read Scripture.

Take Jesus line to a first grade English teacher and let them show you that your view is absolutely foolish grammatically. Jesus does not utter foolish lines.

2 Cor. 5 Paul used the present tense when he said if one is absent from the body- they are present with the Lord.

 

[Peterlag]

No He did not- that is foolish grammar. You are merely aping the Watchtower line.

Yep that means the bodies of the dead, their souls are already in heaven as Paul said.

For someone who claims to be a sinless teacher, you have a lousy grasp of how to read Scripture.

Take Jesus line to a first grade English teacher and let them show you that your view is absolutely foolish grammatically. Jesus does not utter foolish lines.

2 Cor. 5 Paul used the present tense when he said if one is absent from the body- they are present with the Lord.

There's a lot of people like you who believe the dead are alive in heaven. The first key that it's not true should be because the Catholics teach it and they have never been right about anything. How do you have a verse like 1 Thessalonians 4:16 if the dead are already alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Paul is saying that he would prefer to be out of his mortal body and be at home with the Lord, and that is something that most Christians also want. But most Christians make the mistake of thinking that when a person dies they are immediately out of their body and home with the Lord, and that is not what happens and not what 2 Corinthians 5:8 is saying. A person is out of their body and home with the Lord when the Lord comes for his Church because that is when dead Christians are raised and living Christians are changed. What Paul is confident of, and would prefer over being alive in his natural body or being dead, is the Lord coming and the Rapture occurring.

The message of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is that when a person dies, they are dead in every sense of the word, with no conscious awareness. Dead people will be raised at the Rapture or a resurrection. This is contrary to the teaching of traditional Christianity, which says that when a person dies, their soul (or spirit) immediately goes to heaven or hell. Through the centuries, Christians have focused on a few verses of Scripture to support their claim that dead Christians are alive in heaven, and 2 Corinthians 5:8 is one of those verses.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul said, “We would prefer to be away from the body and home with the Lord.” But at what point is a Christian home with the Lord? Christians will be at home with the Lord sometime in the future when the Lord comes and gets us. Jesus Christ will come down from heaven, shout, and the trumpet will blow. At that time dead Christians will come out of the ground in new bodies and join the Lord in the air. Also, the Christians who are still alive on earth will immediately change, receive new everlasting bodies, and meet the Lord in the air

 

[DJT_47]

Jesus wasn't even in paradise that day, and the rich man and Lazarus is a parable.
While we are talking about Lazarus, let's look at what Jesus said:

As for the Rich Man and Lazarus
Jesus is speaking of the Jewish nation---they had Moses and the Prophets, but they didn't pay any attention to them.
Here are the 5 brothers. Pharisees Essenes, , Saducees and Herodians and Zealots
From the parable:

Luke 18:27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ (Doesn't God forbid the living speaking to the dead, so why would he ask Lazarus to go to his brothers?)
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

. They still were not convinced when Lazarus was resurrected.

John 11: 11-14
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
[12] Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. [13] Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. [14] Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

And when He arrived , He saw Martha who said:

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

So Jesus said He was going to awaken Lazarus, and Martha said she knew he would be resurrected on the last day.!!!!

If I had been Lazarus, I would've been madder than a wet hen if I'd been pulled out of the Kingdom to come back here, but he wasn't brought back from Heaven. Jesus awoke him like He said He was going to , and not a word from Lazarus about Heaven.

How do YOU know where Jesus was that day? If he said he'd be in paradise, then he WAS in paradise irrespective of what YOU think.

And parable or not, it still infers the continuation of consciousness upon death. Jesus would not mislead or confuse by any statement he made, parable or otherwise.

 

[Peterlag]

How do YOU know where Jesus was that day? If he said he'd be in paradise, then he WAS in paradise irrespective of what YOU think.

And parable or not, it still infers the continuation of consciousness upon death. Jesus would not mislead or confuse by any statement he made, parable or otherwise.

Good point. Jesus was not in paradise that day since paradise is still future.

 

[Taken]

Well when we get there we will find out, won't we. time to move on.

Yep…IF for some, WHEN for others.

Yep…A Souls LIFE, IS Gods Breath of Life.

Yep…ManKKIND and AnimalKIND have Gods Breath of Life.

Gen. 7:
[14] They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
[15] And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

1 Gen 15:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Yep…Saved departed souls, “rise” up to Heaven.

Yep…Saved souls “ARE” forgiven souls of manKIND and SINLESS souls of animalKKIND.

Yep…Blood is the life of mortal body’s (man and animal KIND).

Yep…Body’s of Saved soul “SHALL” rise up “IMMORTAL” from the “dust of the Earth”, receive it’s “Saved soul” and Occupy the face of the EARTH…
“WHEN”…
The barrier Between Heaven and Earth IS opened…
“AND”
As it IS IN Heaven, so SHALL it BE ON EARTH.

Yep…THEN SHALL
Matt 6:
[10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Settled…According to the word of God…
ManKIND has a body and soul.
AnimalKIND has a body and soul.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[DJT_47]

Good point. Jesus was not in paradise that day since paradise is still future.

You're wrong about paradise. The scriptures say it IS the third heaven.

2 Cor:2-4

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[Peterlag]

You're wrong about paradise. The scriptures say it IS the third heaven.

2 Cor:2-4

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:4

“taken into Paradise.” The Greek word translated “taken” is harpazō ἁρπάζω), and it means to seize, to carry off or carry away by force, and it can often have the connotation of carrying someone or something away speedily by force. Orthodox theology misunderstands this verse and teaches that “Paradise” is heaven, but it is not; “Paradise” is on earth in the future. Because orthodox theologians teach Paradise is in heaven, most English Bibles translate harpazō as “caught up” into Paradise. But “Paradise” is not “up.” They are both future. Paul was not caught “up” to them by a revelation vision, he was “taken” “forcibly taken” or “forcibly taken quickly” to them. Paul was “taken” to Paradise, the future earth, in a vision. Visions of the future, or of the presence of God, occur with some regularity in the Bible.

 

[DJT_47]

2 Corinthians 12:4

“taken into Paradise.” The Greek word translated “taken” is harpazō ἁρπάζω), and it means to seize, to carry off or carry away by force, and it can often have the connotation of carrying someone or something away speedily by force. Orthodox theology misunderstands this verse and teaches that “Paradise” is heaven, but it is not; “Paradise” is on earth in the future. Because orthodox theologians teach Paradise is in heaven, most English Bibles translate harpazō as “caught up” into Paradise. But “Paradise” is not “up.” They are both future. Paul was not caught “up” to them by a revelation vision, he was “taken” “forcibly taken” or “forcibly taken quickly” to them. Paul was “taken” to Paradise, the future earth, in a vision. Visions of the future, or of the presence of God, occur with some regularity in the Bible.

Fact: Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise that very, same day.

Fact: paradise and the 3rd heaven are one in the same.

 

[Peterlag]

Fact: Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise that very, same day.

Fact: paradise and the 3rd heaven are one in the same.

Jesus did not say you will be with me today in paradise.
Jesus said I say unto you today that you will be with me in paradise.

 

[DJT_47]

Jesus did not say you will be with me today in paradise.
Jesus said I say unto you today that you will be with me in paradise.

??? and ???

You're wrong again! Look closely at where the comma is placed in that scripture @ Luke 23:43; it's placed before the word "today", not after as you're errantly inferring. If it were placed after, I would agree with you, but it's not. BIG difference in it's meaning.

Luke 23:43 (KJV)

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

And I might add, other translations place the comma in the same place as the KJV.

The way you're misinterpreting it via misplacement of the comma, it's as though Jesus were simply making the statement to him "today", which is obvious, rather than indicating when it would occur, which would also be a moot point because, as aforementioned, it's obvious Jesus was speaking to him "today" which need not be reaffirmed.

 

[Peterlag]

??? and ???

You're wrong again! Look closely at where the comma is placed in that scripture @ Luke 23:43; it's placed before the word "today", not after as you're errantly inferring. If it were placed after, I would agree with you, but it's not. BIG difference in it's meaning.

Luke 23:43 (KJV)

"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

And I might add, other translations place the comma in the same place as the KJV.

The way you're misinterpreting it via misplacement of the comma, it's as though Jesus were simply making the statement to him "today", which is obvious, rather than indicating when it would occur, which would also be a moot point because, as aforementioned, it's obvious Jesus was speaking to him "today" which need not be reaffirmed.

There are no commas in the original manuscript. You can't blame God for where men put the wrong comma.