Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[amigo de christo]

And they will! We see it in Scripture.

Well be on gaurd cause there is this huge movement within both the RCC and JERSUALEM to make the faiths as one .
THEY ALL GOING UNDER the DELUSION and JESUS is getting TROD UNDER FOOT .
My advice is , DONT FOLLOW most them jews in israel . cause most of them and their leaders
are preaching the same line as does the POPE . This all inclusive stuff we aer one unity lie .
I never seen a delusion grow like this . Its all over christendom , and the other religoins too
its all over politics and the world . ITS MERGING all to become as one and right under a god of love
that is all accepting of certain sins and all paths . ITS A LIE . Beware of it .
Beware it and never believe it . Stand on the true faith . THAT FAITH IN JESUS IS what will save one .
Cause even JESUS told the jews WHO BELIEVED NOT , YE are of your father the devil .
AND if YE LOVED GOD YE WOULD HAVE LOVED ME . REMEMBER THAT . REMEMBER that well .

 

[amigo de christo]

We are in an all out battle for the souls of men and its high time every lamb who names the name of JESUS CHRIST
to arise and contend for the one true faith that was FIRST DELIVERED many , many years and centuries ago .
We are witnessing a falling away like never before and a delusion of a love god has arisen . ONLY it aint god and it aint love
ITS THE DRAGON who desires the worship of the world . PREACH JESUS MY FRIENDS , DO SO TO THE END .

 

[Charlie24]

I don't wish to underestimate the depth of this disagreement, but things have changed since the Early Church. At that time, when Jesus had come the 1st time, it was the beginning of a long age of punishment for Israel. It is often disputed, but the words of Jesus, I believe, are undisputable...

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled....
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Sadly, these words have been a cause of endless debate throughout many centuries. But times have changed. When Jesus 1st gave this prophecy, Israel was entering into a period of judgment, while at the same time a new age would begin for Gentile Christians in the area of the Roman Empire.

The nation Israel, with the exception of a few Christians, rebelled against Christ and lost their temple religion, as well as their homeland. And they entered into the Jewish Diaspora, to last in effect until the end of the age.

Actually, the present age is biblically defined by this period of Jewish punishment. The end of this age is defined, by Jesus, as the end of Jewish punishment and the salvation of the nation Israel.

The salvation of "all Israel" refers not to the salvation of every individual in Israel, but rather, to the salvation of an entire nation, as opposed to the deliverance of just a remnant. This is a political salvation, as well as a Christian salvation. The nation will turn to Christ at his coming, and Israel, as a nation, will never again fall under national punishment.

This is often confused as a claim that every individual in the nation will get saved, spiritually. This is *not* what the words mean! This is a well-worn concept in the Prophets that Israel goes through changes, from one generation to another, falling away and then returning, coming under punishment, and then being restored. At times the nation was just partially delivered. But this promise involves the hope of a full national deliverance, to last for all time.

In the early Church Christians, after a few centuries, began to give up hope in this promised restoration of Israel. Jesus' statements, and Paul's statements on this were either ignored or reinterpreted, giving rise to "Replacement Theology." Of course, it wasn't called that, because "Israel" came to be viewed as the new name for the predominantly Gentile Church. Jewish Christians were not cast out of the Church, but the idea of a full nation being saved was discarded because of Israel's experience and failure.

But throughout Christian history it was recognized that full nations had become "Christian," if only in name. In reality, though, they were "Christian" philosophically and religiously, regardless of how many imposters or failures there were. These nations adopted Christianity as their state religion. All of the countries of Europe have, at one time or another, become "Christian States." They are now turning away from Christianity and engaging in religious apostasy, but they have all, at one time, converted, as nations, to being Christian States or Nations.

So the idea of "all Israel" becoming a Christian nation cannot have been dismissed except for the fact the Jews had lost their nation and were not turning in sufficient numbers to form a Christian nation. However, in modern times, we're seeing the possibility not just of a Christian nation of Israel, but also the viability of the Israeli nation. This didn't require sufficient numbers of Christian Jews to accomplish this, but it is now thought that like Ezekiel said Israel will be restored not by any virtue that they possess, but only for the sake of God's honor and name.

Eze 36.32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign Lord. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, people of Israel!

Randy, one discussion that I have had from time to time with some others who are much more enlightened in the Scripture than myself, is that Calvin was not far from the truth on predestination!

That predestination was not as he supposed, but it was for His chosen! Of course this is an in depth conversation that some are not prepared for, they will automatically see fault, but it is very interesting.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hit those trenches charlie and all , OUR HOPE IS IN THE LORD ALONE . Arise and contend for the one true faith . THE FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST .
FOR IT IS the ONLY FAITH that saves . PUT ALL HOPE , ALL TRUST , ALL FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS .
And let none be moved , no matter what comes against us . JUST HOLD TO THE LORD .

 

[covenantee]

Yes! That will be all the remnant of Israel who are left from the hand of the anti-christ.

They will all see Christ and know He is the promised One.

The remnant already existed when Paul wrote, and exists to this day. It consisted and consists of those of Israel who had/have accepted Christ i.e. the election of grace.

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 

[Charlie24]

The remnant already existed when Paul wrote, and exists to this day. It consisted and consists of those of Israel who had/have accepted Christ i.e. the election of grace.

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

That is true! But the promise of God to Abraham is much more than this.

Israel must meet a condition in order for God to fulfill that promise.

They must all come into His Covenant before the land promise is given.

The only way for Israel to fulfill their original calling by God, is for all of Israel to be saved.

 

[Charlie24]

One thing I suppose I could explain for some to have a better understanding, is that Paul said the Jew has an advantage in that they were given the Law and the womb of Christ for their calling. It was only given to them and for the purpose of them fulfilling their calling to introduce Christ to the world.

Then later Paul tells us there is no deference between the Jew and Gentile. This is speaking of salvation, there no difference in the salvation of the Jew and Gentile, we must all come through Christ.

Paul also tells us that God has not cast away Israel, that God has not changed His mind on the calling of Israel (the gifts and calling of God are not subject to change). In other words, Israel will yet fulfill that calling where they failed the first time in rejecting Christ.

In order to fulfill that calling, there are certain conditions that Israel must meet. First they must come under covenant in Christ! This has been promised to Abraham and will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

Second, now that they are saved and in Covenant, they have a calling to fulfill to introduce Christ to the world, they will fulfill this calling in the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth in the land that God promised them through Abraham.

For 1000 years the Jews will be the Priests of God and the entire world will come to Jerusalem to honor Christ. They will have to come through the Jews in order to do this. It is believed from the Scripture of Zechariah, that all nations will send 10 representatives to Jerusalem to provide the honor of that nation. Zechariah said that if any nation will not come, that nation will receive no rain, he also said Egypt would be one of those nations.

So why did God choose this nation for this calling?

Duet. 7:6-10
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face."

God has always kept and protected Israel. He has allowed many terrible things to take place with them, but He has preserved them with a purpose. He has brought them to the land He promised them, and all is set for Him to finally carry out the promise he made to Abraham.

For 1000 years Israel will teach and preach Jesus Christ to the nations of the world, fulfilling the calling God had made just for them. The world will have to come through them, proving to them that God has always love them, He chose them for this purpose, And Israel will be honored as God's chosen!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul was reiterating the Jewish Hope, the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise. Abraham was promised a nation of faith. This obviously does not include every individual, because nations comprise believers and unbelievers. But to have a nation of faith merely requires a predominance of leaders who have faith and a majority who practice faith. This keeps the nation in the realm of divine blessing, which is what God promised under the Law and will be fulfilled when Christ returns.

The salvation and the deliverance being promised to the nation Israel was a political deliverance. But political deliverance was always predicated, under God's covenant, upon the obedience of the nation, generally, to God's word. When the nation moved in the direction of obedience, punishing rebels and favoring the obedient, then good things happened. Enemies were scattered. The nation prospered.

Israel was always intended to become a Christian nation, just as they had been created to be a nation of God. But by the time Christ came, the nation had once again fallen away into religious apostasy, just as they had done many times before.

Will this stop Israel from recovering from their backsliding? Paul argued against this. He stated that grace will restore them just as grace is now reaching out to pagan nations. If pagan nations can be forgiven so can Israel be forgiven in their backsliding and sin.

I don't need to go any farther into this. This is my position.

Is it possible for you to specifically address what I said in my post rather than only giving your current understanding?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that “all Israel” is true Israel the church made up of both Jew and gentile.

The deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion;(ethnic Israel) he will turn godlessness away from Jacob(true Israel)

Why else would Israel have two descriptions?

I agree and that's what I was trying to show in my original post. I know my post is pretty long, but it kind of had to be in order to show what Paul was saying in Romans 11:25-27. What he said there summarized what he was saying starting back in Romans 9. Paul had already described an Israel of which all who are part of it are saved in Romans 9:6-8, so that HAS to be taken into consideration when interpreting Romans 11:26.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God only recognizes those of Israel who are in Christ. The rest are lost, but still God's chosen.

Please show me where what you said in your second sentence is taught in scripture. Paul certainly did not teach this.

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened.

What you said contradicts what Paul taught here. He indicated that it was the remnant of believers (the elect) who were God's chosen, but not "the others" who didn't believe. They were hardened, not chosen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In other words, Israel will yet fulfill that calling where they failed the first time in rejecting Christ.

Where did Paul say this?

In order to fulfill that calling, there are certain conditions that Israel must meet. First they must come under covenant in Christ! This has been promised to Abraham and will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

What scripture is this based on?

Second, now that they are saved and in Covenant, they have a calling to fulfill to introduce Christ to the world, they will fulfill this calling in the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth in the land that God promised them through Abraham.

Where is this taught in scripture?

For 1000 years the Jews will be the Priests of God and the entire world will come to Jerusalem to honor Christ. They will have to come through the Jews in order to do this. It is believed from the Scripture of Zechariah, that all nations will send 10 representatives to Jerusalem to provide the honor of that nation. Zechariah said that if any nation will not come, that nation will receive no rain, he also said Egypt would be one of those nations.

So, since you believe that Zechariah 14 is about the future and you take it all literally, does this mean you believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstated during that supposed future time? That is what Zechariah 14:16-21 would imply if that was talking about the future.

So why did God choose this nation for this calling?

Duet. 7:6-10
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face."

God has always kept and protected Israel. He has allowed many terrible things to take place with them, but He has preserved them with a purpose. He has brought them to the land He promised them, and all is set for Him to finally carry out the promise he made to Abraham.

What promise are you talking about? Do you know that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ (Galatians 3:16) and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:29)?

 

[Charlie24]

Please show me where what you said in your second sentence is taught in scripture. Paul certainly did not teach this.

Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened.

What you said contradicts what Paul taught here. He indicated that it was the remnant of believers (the elect) who were God's chosen, but not "the others" who didn't believe. They were hardened, not chosen.

Isa. 44:1
“Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:”

If you are questioning that Israel is the chosen of God, then here it is.

If not, what is your question?

 

[Charlie24]

Where did Paul say this?

What scripture is this based on?

Where is this taught in scripture?

So, since you believe that Zechariah 14 is about the future and you take it all literally, does this mean you believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstated during that supposed future time? That is what Zechariah 14:16-21 would imply if that was talking about the future.

What promise are you talking about? Do you know that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Christ (Galatians 3:16) and those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:29)?

Hey, don't flood me with posts, OK!

Let's take it from the post I have already responded to.

Let's don't play the flood game!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is true! But the promise of God to Abraham is much more than this.

Israel must meet a condition in order for God to fulfill that promise.

They must all come into His Covenant before the land promise is given.

The only way for Israel to fulfill their original calling by God, is for all of Israel to be saved.

Would Abraham himself have the same understanding of the fulfillment of the promise as you do? A mere land promise? You have such low standards. God promises much more than that. Have you never read this:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. 13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Abraham came to realize that this promised land that you believe in was just "a foreign country". He, and other Old Testament saints, came to realize that instead of a piece of land and an earthly country, God had "a better country-a heavenly one" for them and that "he has prepared a city for them". You have your focus on earthly things when they should be on heavenly things. An earthly, temporary piece of land means nothing. God's people desire "a better country - a heavenly one".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isa. 44:1
“Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:”

If you are questioning that Israel is the chosen of God, then here it is.

If not, what is your question?

Will you please read my post again and address what I said by giving me your thoughts on it? After that I will address this post. That is how discussions work.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Scripture plainly tells us that all of Israel will be saved, and that will be when God has kept His promise to Abraham.

They will all, every single one of them, as God said, "all of thee" will come under the covenant in Christ's Blood.

Then will the condition be met for the everlasting land promise.

I Agree 100%, when the last soul is saved and added to the Church, then "All Israel Will Be Saved"

Paul Was Clearly Identifying "The True Israel Of God" Being "The Church" Children Of The Promised Seed

Two Israel's are seen below "TWO", simple, clear, easy to understand

1.) Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, both Jew & Gentile

2.) Israel Of The Flesh "Jews", They Aren't The Children Of God

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Charlie24]

Will you please read my post again and address what I said by giving me your thoughts on it? After that I will address this post. That is how discussions work.

I don't play that game! Now, do you understand that?

You play fair or you don't play at all!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey, don't flood me with posts, OK!

Let's take it from the post I have already responded to.

Let's don't play the flood game!

You are not obligated to answer them all at once. Take it easy. Take your time. You seem to have the impression that I demanded you respond to all of my posts immediately. Not so.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't play that game! Now, do you understand that?

You play fair or you don't play at all!

What game? So, you don't need to address what I say, but you expect me to address what you say? How is that fair?

 

[Charlie24]

You are not obligated to answer them all at once. Take it easy. Take your time. You seem to have the impression that I demanded you respond to all of my posts immediately. Not so.

Ok, this is will accept! Just have conversation in order not with floods of posts.

So exactly what do you want me to address, and I will do it.