Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[amigo de christo]

Party time Amigo De Christo.

 

[amigo de christo]

There ya go, you have created two distinct groups within the Church, saved ethnic Jews and saved Gentiles, "Wrong" Paul writes below there isn't a distinction as you claim above

Galatians 3:26-29KJV
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

and paul was a jew . FOLKS forget that . YES INDEED . PAUL and all lambs POINT TO JESUS . PEROID .

 

[CadyandZoe]

???:

Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

???

Strange translation. I don't think that translation is correct. If I were making a translation, I would not have Paul contradict himself. Let's try this translation from the NET Bible.

Romans 11:11

I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?​

The NET translation adds an adjective "irrevocable" before the term "fall" in order to bring out the first century idiomatic connotation. To those living in the first century, a stumble and fall together meant something much more destructive than our English words convey.

For instance, I might stumble (trip) on a rock elevated from the path. And typically I quickly catch my balance and recover myself. That is on the one hand. On the other hand my false step might cause me to fall face down on the path, or worse, might cause me to fall over a cliff.

Paul is using the term "fall" in a figurative sense, which indicates defeat, destruction, or judgment. And so Paul is asking did Israel's misstep result in her being thrown down by God? Paul's answer is no, may it never be. He reasons that her misstep, rather than resulting in her destruction, resulted in the salvation of the Gentiles instead. And, pertinent to our discussion here, Paul anticipates her restoration.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He is both the root and the offspring. This is talking about His Godhood and His manhood. He was before David as Lord and He was after him as his posterity.

No, it isn't. There is nothing in either text indicating anything about the Godhead.

On the same vein, Christ asked the Pharisees, in Matthew 22:42-46, “What think ye of Christ (or Messiah)? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.” He then quoted Psalm 110:1, saying, “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?” He asked them, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” The Pharisees were bewildered at Christ’s question. The reading states, “And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity)

No, he wasn't. This is another mistaken passage. Jesus is NOT talking at all about his deity or his preexistence in that context.

 

[WPM]

No, it isn't. There is nothing in either text indicating anything about the Godhead.

On the same vein, Christ asked the Pharisees, in Matthew 22:42-46, “What think ye of Christ (or Messiah)? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.” He then quoted Psalm 110:1, saying, “The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?” He asked them, “If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?” The Pharisees were bewildered at Christ’s question. The reading states, “And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.”

Christ was here specifically referring to the great mystery of His eternal Sonship (or His pre-existence in all eternity)

Those who have eyes to see will see it. This is the revelation that totally bamboozled the carnal Pharisees with their fixation on an earthly fleshy temporal kingdom. Many make the same mistake today and miss the same truth of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Those who have eyes to see will see it. This is the revelation that totally bamboozled the carnal Pharisees with their fixation on an earthly fleshy temporal kingdom. Many make the same mistake today and miss the same truth of God.

What evidence do you have for your claim that Jesus bamboozled the Pharisees? Matthew says the Pharisees were unable to answer him, but that doesn't mean they were bamboozled.

 

[WPM]

What evidence do you have for your claim that Jesus bamboozled the Pharisees? Matthew says the Pharisees were unable to answer him, but that doesn't mean they were bamboozled.

Yes it does. Stop trying to be difficult.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes it does. Stop trying to be difficult.

I get it. The world would be a nicer place without someone like me, poking holes in your wild speculations.

 

[covenantee]

This is talking about His Godhood and His manhood.

There is nothing in either text indicating anything about the Godhead.

The word was Godhood.

Not Godhead.

 

[Truth7t7]

When woman gets saved does she cease to be a woman? I don't think so. Paul isn't suggesting that all human categories cease to exist. His point is that there is no distinction between various groups with respect to the inheritance.

The poster has saved "Ethnic Jews" in the lineage of "Jacob" inside the Church, with a specific future use and purpose of God based upon this ethnic heritage, you are Johnny come lately on the subject

The posters teachings are false, God has no future specific purpose based upon ethnic heritage and bloodline within the Church

 

[Truth7t7]

Just because God has one church, where there is neither Jew nor Greek, this in no way contradicts God's plan to bring Israel back to the land, materially bless them, protect them from their enemies, set up his throne there and rule the nations.

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!!!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't think Paul is denouncing national salvation of the Jews in that passage. I think Paul has set out to prove national salvation will eventually take place. I think Paul is attempting to deny that God will save all Israel wholesale, simply based on ethnicity. The Israel of the promise will be populated by descendants of Jacob, and among that group will not be found a person without a circumcised heart. I think that's his point.

I agree that Paul tells us that all of Israel will be saved, just as sure as God promised it.

But not here in Rom. 9:6-8. This is definitely showing why they are not yet saved.

He plainly shows us here the reason they are all not saved, but yet he reveals that some are.

"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed," is showing how they will be saved.

It refers to Abraham's faith as the reason for the promise. Until they come to the faith of Abraham, they are not saved.

But they will be brought to this faith in a very convincing way!

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree that Paul tells us that all of Israel will be saved, just as sure as God promised it.

But not here in Rom. 9:6-8. This is definitely showing why they are not yet saved.

He plainly shows us here the reason they are all not saved, but yet he reveals that some are.

"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed," is showing how they will be saved.

It refers to Abraham's faith as the reason for the promise. Until they come to the faith of Abraham, they are not saved.

But they will be brought to this faith in a very convincing way!

Sorry Charlie, Romans 9:6-8 clearly shows "Israel" of the flesh "Jews" and "Israel" of the promised seed "The Church"

The remnant Jew will be saved and "Added" to Israel "The Church" children of the promised seed, and that promised seed is Jesus Christ

No human living on earth can partake of the promised seed unless they are saved and become "The Church" children of the promised seed

 

[Charlie24]

Sorry Charlie, Romans 9:6-8 clearly shows "Israel" of the flesh "Jews" and "Israel" of the promised seed "The Church"

The remnant Jew will be saved and "Added" to Israel "The Church" children of the promised seed, and that promised seed is Jesus Christ

No human living on earth can partake of the promised seed unless they are saved and become "The Church" children of the promised seed

No afraid not! Paul is telling them that Israel will be saved by the promise, not of the flesh. They of the flesh are not the children of promise. The promise is concerning the seed. So let me explain this.

God promised Abraham and Sarah a child would be born who would receive the promise made to them. But in unbelief they jumped the gun, so to speak, and planned that Abraham would go in to, Hagar the Egyptian woman/servant and they would have this child.

The result of that comes the seed of Abraham known as the Islam nations, who are not the promised seed.

They did not wait on God for the promise of the child, through the "works of the flesh" they created this unseeded child.

Now let's go back to the previous verse and put it together.

vs 7 "But in Isaac shall thy seed be called." vs 8 "that is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.

Do you see how Paul is saying that the promised are not by the seed of Ishmael (the works of the flesh by Abraham and Sarah) but the children of the promise are of seed of Isaac, who God promised them? They would become the nation of israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

No afraid not! Paul is telling them that Israel will be saved by the promise, not of the flesh. They of the flesh are not the children of promise. The promise is concerning the seed. So let me explain this.

God promised Abraham and Sarah a child would be born who would receive the promise made to them. But in unbelief they jumped the gun, so to speak, and planned that Abraham would go in to, Hagar the Egyptian woman/servant and they would have this child.

The result of that comes the seed of Abraham known as the Islam nations, who are not the promised seed.

They did not wait on God for the promise of the child, through the "works of the flesh" they created this unseeded child.

Now let's go back to the previous verse and put it together.

vs 7 "But in Isaac shall thy seed be called." vs 8 "that is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.

Do you see how Paul is saying that the promised are not by the seed of Ishmael (the works of the flesh by Abraham and Sarah) but the children of the promise are of seed of Isaac, who God promised them? They would become the nation of israel.

The Chuch represents the children of the promise, from all nations and races, the "Israel Of God"

We Disagree, The Horse Is Dead

Romans 9:8KJV
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

 

[Charlie24]

The Chuch represents the children of the promise, from all nations and races, the "Israel Of God"

We Disagree, The Horse Is Dead

Romans 9:8KJV
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

OK, all I can do is show you! I'm happy to go on my way.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The word was Godhood.

Not Godhead.

Nothing in the text about Godhood either.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The poster has saved "Ethnic Jews" in the lineage of "Jacob" inside the Church, with a specific future use and purpose of God based upon this ethnic heritage, you are Johnny come lately on the subject

The posters teachings are false, God has no future specific purpose based upon ethnic heritage and bloodline within the Church.

I think we both agree that God is no respecter of persons. I think we both agree that race and ethnicity was never and will never be the basis for salvation. I assume you and I can find common ground on that point.

Now, that having been said, I disagree with your position that God has no future, specific purpose based on bloodline. I believe he IS going to save a group of people, all direct descendants of Jacob, some time in our future. But race, per se, is not going to be the basis of their salvation; God is going to save that group of people based on a promise he made to their fathers. God is no respecter of persons, but God is a person who keeps his promises. He is going to save them, not for their sake, but for the sake of their fathers.

We can go into detail but for now, please consider the following passage from Romans 11.

Romans 11:1-6

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.​

I want to focus on the phrase "His people", because I believe it is easy to miss the strong implications of Paul's word choice here. Some one might say, "of course, God has not rejected the Jewish people as a race. If a Jewish individual wants to be saved, then all that person needs to do is confess Jesus Christ. God is not forbidding Jewish people from being saved." This is a true statement; I have no disagreement with it. But Paul is asking a different question. He isn't asking whether God rejected the Jewish race; He is asking whether God has disunited from the Jewish race such that he no longer considers them "his people."

God deals with each individual privately, in the heart and soul of each person. At the same time, God decided to deal publicly and overtly with an entire family line, the direct descendants of Jacob, all taken as a whole and formed into a nation, which God himself calls "my people." The direct descendants of Jacob are "his people" in a way that the Assyrians, the Hittites, the Babylonians and etc. are NOT his people. Consider the following passage.

Deuteronomy 7:6

For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.​

Some would argue that based on passages like Galatians 3:28, God has disassociated himself from the Hebrews, no longer considered to be "a people for his own possession." But Paul denies this view. We can see from Romans 11:1 that, indeed, God has NOT disassociated himself from the Hebrew people. His relationship with that unique people remains. God has not rejected the Hebrew people, he continues to consider them "his people."

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)!!!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

I disagree with your conclusion that Jesus would not return to earth. Did Jesus actually teach that he was not returning to earth? I don't think so. Rather, he was teaching that his return to earth would be so obvious, that we should not expect to find him hidden in a secret location.

Matthew 24:23-28

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
​

What is being contrasted here? Is Jesus contrasting the earth with heaven? I don't think so. Our Lord warns his disciples against being mislead. He lists various ways that false teachers might mislead us. They might say "Here is the Christ", falsely claiming that someone other than Jesus is the Christ. They might say, "There he is", falsely claiming that someone else, other than Jesus, is the Christ. They might claim that the Christ is out in the wilderness; or they might claim that the Christ is in the inner rooms. Instead of seeking to find a Christ other than Jesus, we should be awaiting the coming of the Son of Man, who will come from the sky just as the lightning flashes from the east even to the west.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I agree that Paul tells us that all of Israel will be saved, just as sure as God promised it.

But not here in Rom. 9:6-8. This is definitely showing why they are not yet saved.

He plainly shows us here the reason they are all not saved, but yet he reveals that some are.

"but the children of the promise are counted for the seed," is showing how they will be saved.

It refers to Abraham's faith as the reason for the promise. Until they come to the faith of Abraham, they are not saved.

But they will be brought to this faith in a very convincing way!

Agreed, and good point about context. I consider Romans 9:6 the opening line of Paul's thesis, which concludes at about Romans 11:27. Charlie, if you agree that Paul has written an extended thesis as I suggest, can you summarize the thesis in one or two sentences?