Restoration

[Truth7t7]

If you say so it must be correct.

God's words say so, it appears you desire to change the very truth of scripture "Why"?

 

[David in NJ]

God's words say so, it appears you desire to change the very truth of scripture "Why"?

i'd rather listen to you tell me how wrong i am

 

[jeffweeder]

So if their punishment is "everlasting" then the following verse is incorrect, right?

1 Timothy 4:10
English Standard Version
10 For to this end we toil and strive,[a] because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe.

No verse can be incorrect.
God has provided salvation for all people through Christ, but not all will have faith in him. Some will still end up being eternally separated from him as many scriptures show.

2Thess 2
9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we should and are [morally] obligated [as debtors] always to give thanks to God for you, believers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [that sets you apart for God’s purpose] and by your faith in the truth [of God’s word that leads you to spiritual maturity].

14 It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection], so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

God has provided salvation for all people through Christ, but not all will have faith in him. Some will still end up being eternally separated from him as many scriptures show.

What do you make of this?
(don't miss the Strong's definition near the bottom, thanks)

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

 

[jeffweeder]

Nobody can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
One must first repent for the forgiveness of sins before he receives the Holy Spirit.
Not all repent.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nobody can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
One must first repent for the forgiveness of sins before he receives the Holy Spirit.
Not all repent.

I was raised on that same idea. Evangelicalism.
Then I had a sister-in-law that made the declaration that she couldn't believe in a God that would send people to hell.

Long-story short, this led me to investigate further. This verse caught my attention. Everything about hell unraveled from there.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nobody can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. ...

I agree.
So, what will happen when every knee bows and every tongue -- in heaven -- and on earth -- and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), -- acknowledges that Jesus Christ is Lord? As you say, "Nobody can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit."

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Keraz]

The Rescue of the Righteous People:

Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for My holy Land, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.

This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!

These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.

These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.
Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.



‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will depopulate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30, Zephaniah 1:14-18

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zephaniah 3:8, Matthew 24:29, Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

 

[WPM]

The Rescue of the Righteous People:

Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for My holy Land, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.

This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!

These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.

These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.
Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.



‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will depopulate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30, Zephaniah 1:14-18

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zephaniah 3:8, Matthew 24:29, Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

This is a major difference between Amillennialism and Premillennialism. Premillennialists cannot seem to let go of the abolished old covenant and move in to the liberty and freedom of the new covenant arrangement. The conditional promises, to disobedient Old Testament Israel, that they failed to realize, through their rebellion, serves as a suitable shadow, type and figure of the perfect new covenant temple and the living water of the Spirit that flowed from Him. Christ is the new covenant temple. He is the final sacrifice for sin. The old covenant is abolished. It is wrong and nonsensical for Christians to promote its restoration.

For what purpose? Why would we need it? There was a reason why the curtain was ripped in two. There was a reason the temple was destroyed in AD70. The temple has been rendered redundant. It has been replaced by a better temple.

Many today imagine that the temple that once sat on the temple mount in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that the Old Testament sacrifice system will be somehow reinstituted in full. They suggest that this temple will be brought back to its magnificent former state on the new earth oversaw by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Many Christians today look to modern Israel for signs of the rebuilding of then temple. They seek confirmation in the efforts of radical Jewish fundamentalists to restore the old abolished animal sacrifice system. What they forget is that the Jews they are looking to reject the Christ and His one final sacrifice for sin. They have no love for Jesus Christ. They have no understanding of His climactic sacrifice. All their hopes are built on sandy ground, for such efforts are meaningless and rebellious and are doomed to failure. The only sin offering that will ever be satisfactory to God the Father is the sacrifice of His Son on the cross. This is the one final eternal sacrifice for sin.

What would the purpose of this supposed future temple be and what ordinances do such believers anticipate will be performed there? What possible benefit going originate from them? Surely the temple of God in the New Testament relates exclusively to Christ and the people of God? Why would we need a literal physical temple? Moreover, we have entered the New Covenant, the Old has been removed.

Which is the greater tabernacle – the physical or spiritual? It is of course the spiritual. The physical temple is a spiritual picture of Christ and the water flowing from Him is spiritual living water.

 

[jeffweeder]

I was raised on that same idea. Evangelicalism.

It is written...,


Lk 24
44 Then He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you, everything which has been written about Me in the [c]Law of Moses and the [writings of the] Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to [help them] understand the Scriptures, 46 and said, “And so it is written, that the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed) would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance [necessary] for forgiveness of sins would be preached in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Then I had a sister-in-law that made the declaration that she couldn't believe in a God that would send people to hell.

They send themselves to hell due to not having any love for the truth.
God went to hell in our place that we might find repentance and avoid the place. What more could he have done?

Long-story short, this led me to investigate further. This verse caught my attention. Everything about hell unraveled from there.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2 - Amp

2 And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature—our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world.

3 And this is how we know [daily, by experience] that we have come to know Him [to understand Him and be more deeply acquainted with Him]: if we habitually keep [focused on His precepts and obey] His commandments (teachings). 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know Him,” but does not habitually keep [focused on His precepts and obey] His commandments (teachings), is a liar, and the truth [of the divine word] is not in him. 5 But whoever habitually keeps His word and obeys His precepts [and treasures His message in its entirety], in him the love of God has truly been perfected [it is completed and has reached maturity]. By this we know [for certain] that we are in Him: 6 whoever says he lives in Christ [that is, whoever says he has accepted Him as God and Savior] ought [as a moral obligation] to walk and conduct himself just as He walked and conducted Himself.

 

[St. SteVen]

They send themselves to hell due to not having any love for the truth.

Does the punishment fit the crime?

 

[St. SteVen]

God went to hell in our place that we might find repentance and avoid the place.

Perhaps you are uninformed about what Jesus went there to do?
Have you heard of the Harrowing of Hell?

What more could have he had done?

Glad you asked.

Who created hell? He could have done something about that.

Lots more to say about this. I will leave it there for now.

 

[jeffweeder]

Does the punishment fit the crime?

Fact is Jesus had to suffer all those things in order to save us.


God bless SteVen.

 

[St. SteVen]

Fact is Jesus had to suffer all those things in order to save us.

I agree.
Salvation hangs on the acts of two men.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[St. SteVen]

Lets not derail this thread any further.
God bless SteVen.

I'm here to talk about restoration. I though that WAS the topic.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Romans 8:20-21
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Matt 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

i'd rather listen to you tell me how wrong i am

What is spoken that must be completed, waiting?

Quote: David In NJ

"Of course 2 Peter is True and it will eventually occur.

c.) Creation, its destruction and the New Heavens and Earth are in His Power and will not occur until that which HE spoke is completed."

 

[Truth7t7]

Does the punishment fit the crime?

Sounds like a Jehovahs Witness or 7th Day Adventist in their arguments against a literal hell?

 

[St. SteVen]

Sounds like a Jehovahs Witness or 7th Day Adventist in their arguments against a literal hell?

Do you have a defense for a literal hell? (of course you do)
I'm not Jehovahs Witness or 7th Day Adventist.
But, I think SDAs believe in hell. I could be wrong.

 

[jeffweeder]

I'm here to talk about restoration. I though that WAS the topic.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Yes, it is the topic.

For some reason I thought we were discussing in another thread about the millennium.
Sorry. I edited it out a while ago.

When Jesus comes again not only will we be fully restored so will everything else from the foundation of the world. (tree of life)

Matt 25

The Judgment​

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.



Rev
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished), and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, arrayed like a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and then I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “See! The tabernacle of God is among men, and He will live among them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them [as their God,] 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be death; there will no longer be sorrow and anguish, or crying, or pain; for the former order of things has passed away.”

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true [they are accurate, incorruptible, and trustworthy].” 6 And He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I will give [water] from the fountain of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes [the world by adhering faithfully to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior] will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But as for the cowards and unbelieving and abominable [who are devoid of character and personal integrity and practice or tolerate immorality], and murderers, and sorcerers [with intoxicating drugs], and idolaters and occultists [who practice and teach false religions], and all the liars [who knowingly deceive and twist truth], their part will be in the lake that blazes with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Rev 22
12 “Behold, I (Jesus) am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to the merit of his deeds (earthly works, faithfulness). 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End [the Eternal One].”

14 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) are those who wash their robes [in the blood of Christ by believing and trusting in Him—the righteous who do His commandments], so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.