Question: Why not believe in Christ's millennial reign on earth?

[jeffweeder]

Six one thousand year days.

So a seventh one thousand year day fits the plan.

Wouldn't this 7th day = entering God's eternal rest in Jesus finished work?
If so, that cannot be limited to 1000 years.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who believe [that is, we who personally trust and confidently rely on God] enter that rest [so we have His inner peace now because we are confident in our salvation, and assured of His power], just as He has said, “As I swore [an oath] in My wrath, They shall not enter My rest,” [this He said] although His works were completed from the foundation of the world [waiting for all who would believe].

 

[rwb]

The question is why some are so vehemently against Jesus reigning personally over this earth with His resurrected saints. For them, it's not just a matter of simple doctrinal dispute.

And yet, what bearing does it have on living and walking with Jesus today?

Because unbiblical doctrine is a lie! If one defends and promotes false doctrine, they are deceivers. What does Scripture say about those who teach false doctrine? If we promote false doctrine, can we really be living and walking with Jesus?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have started up a new thread with the different objections many of us (former Premil) Amils have with Premil. Most of these i previously presented, but, i have added additional thoughts.

23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

I have updated my list of objections to Premil. I will submit this for your attention and response. Since abandoning Premillennialism I have engaged in many debates/discussions on the matter of the second coming, end-times and the here-after. These are some of the major weaknesses I find in the...

www.christianityboard.com

I'm kind, friendly, loving, respectful, only someone being openly exposed on forums would claim otherwise :)

When I post showing your error in false teachings for correction, this alone shows my kindness and respectful love

Your continued claims of "National Salvation For Israel" is a harmful "Lie" in my "Opinion", I use a very calm word in "Fairytale" to describe your claims

Jesus Is The Lord

Calling the beliefs of others "fairy tales" is not serious. And apparently you can't be honest with yourself. No, it isn't kind "correcting someone" with a bad spirit, which is what you regularly spew. I think you're capable of better. I'll look forward to it in the future.

Incidentally, I don't feel in the least "exposed" by you. In fact, from my pov, I still feel like I'm living by the Scriptures. But God is our judge. Honestly, you annoy me, but I don't in the least hate you. I'm just wondering if you're capable of discussing the differences of others in a friendly way?

 

[Truth7t7]

Calling the beliefs of others "fairy tales" is not serious. And apparently you can't be honest with yourself. No, it isn't kind "correcting someone" with a bad spirit, which is what you regularly spew. I think you're capable of better. I'll look forward to it in the future.

Incidentally, I don't feel in the least "exposed" by you. In fact, from my pov, I still feel like I'm living by the Scriptures. But God is our judge. Honestly, you annoy me, but I don't in the least hate you. I'm just wondering if you're capable of discussing the differences of others in a friendly way?

"National Salvation For Israel" Is Sci-Fi Found No Place In Scripture, With All Love, Kindness, Respect, And Big Hugs :)

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Randy Kluth]

Now, here is something solid, that I had not thought of.

Are you saying, that believing in Christ's millennial reign on earth, where a version of the law of Moses is being restored, may lead some Christians today to return to parts of that law that is done away, such as sacrifice of blood of animals for sin?

That is what Scripture in Ezekiel shows, as well as the necessity of outward circumcision of the flesh, along with inward circumcision by the Spirit of Christ.

Or, that they can justify teaching the law of Moses like Judaizers, based upon the future millennial reign with some of the law of Moses?

I'm not worrying that Premil Dispensationalists are teaching a return to the Law of Moses, but only to symbolic observance of the same for purposes of remembrance--much like Communion. We celebrate Communion not as a way to get into Heaven, but rather, as a remembrance of what Christ did to give us assurance that we're going there.

I don't personally believe that Israel will return to observances of the Law. There are a number of passages that seem to suggest this, that mention the temple, priests, sacrifices, and festival observances. But my belief is that the Prophets used OT symbolism at that time because if they had spoken far beyond their own time and circumstance, Israel may have thought the Law was less important to follow. And it was critical at that time, while still under the Law, to faithfully observe the Law.

So I do believe that the Prophets spoke in symbolism, much as Amils believe. But I don't believe OT worship literally carries over into the NT era. Ezekiel's temple, for example, was said to be a vision to minister to people in Ezekiel's time who had just lost their temple. It was a vision of a time when the temple worship would be restored in the Messianic era, never to be destroyed or revoked again.

Of course, we know that the NT temple is Christ himself. The idea in Ezekiel is that Israel will indeed participate in this Hope, though it will come through Christ to restore a heavenly kind of temple worship. Ezekiel's temple was a vision, but the reality is Christ, as the author of Hebrews writes.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I understand pride of knowledge, that is not charity. But there are plenty of false teachings, that deserve to be hated, because they corrupt the doctrine and good manners of the saints:

Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

But how does believing in pre-mil, pre-trib, post-trib, post-mil, etc have anything to do with walking with Jesus today?

Every doctrine in the Bible has, I believe, an important purpose. Some doctrines are more peripheral, and we should treat them accordingly. But every word of God should be taken seriously.

I've learned the importance of Premil because it illustrates the battle we have with Satan today, not giving us a cocky confidence that we can defeat the world before Christ comes. We have to harden ourselves to experience suffering and negative things at times.

I've learned that Postrib is useful for much the same reason, that it illustrates the fact we have to face Antichrists who rule this world. We have to expect political defeat at times, because we read in Revelation that the Antichristian rebellion will be allowed to defeat the saints for a time. We can't expect to win a nation to Christ and hold it. Again, we should hold back on our positiveness and triumphalism. We should not be under the illusion that our State will always go in the right direction.

These have been very useful lessons in my own life. I've had some terrible experiences that led me to the point of wanting to give up. I had to know that having these negative experiences did not mean God was displeased with me or rejecting me.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not worrying that Premil Dispensationalists are teaching a return to the Law of Moses, but only to symbolic observance of the same for purposes of remembrance--much like Communion. We celebrate Communion not as a way to get into Heaven, but rather, as a remembrance of what Christ did to give us assurance that we're going there.

I don't personally believe that Israel will return to observances of the Law. There are a number of passages that seem to suggest this, that mention the temple, priests, sacrifices, and festival observances. But my belief is that the Prophets used OT symbolism at that time because if they had spoken far beyond their own time and circumstance, Israel may have thought the Law was less important to follow. And it was critical at that time, while still under the Law, to faithfully observe the Law.

So I do believe that the Prophets spoke in symbolism, much as Amils believe. But I don't believe OT worship literally carries over into the NT era. Ezekiel's temple, for example, was said to be a vision to minister to people in Ezekiel's time who had just lost their temple. It was a vision of a time when the temple worship would be restored in the Messianic era, never to be destroyed or revoked again.

Of course, we know that the NT temple is Christ himself. The idea in Ezekiel is that Israel will indeed participate in this Hope, though it will come through Christ to restore a heavenly kind of temple worship. Ezekiel's temple was a vision, but the reality is Christ, as the author of Hebrews writes.

A novel sized response without one scripture referenced in its support

"National Salvation For Israel" that you teach and promote isn't found in scripture

 

[ewq1938]

When we found traditional eschatology

Traditional eschatology on this matter is Premill as all the early church fathers for centuries were Premill known as Chiliasts. Amill rose with the RCC around the 3rd century and would be better named as new age theology bucking against the traditional and properly Church approved theology. Everyone should know it was Amill that opposed the canonization of Revelation, the book that is the authority of the Millennium and is fully Premill in nature with the two resurrections separated by a thousand years in Rev 20 etc.

 

[The Light]

The question is why some are so vehemently against Jesus reigning personally over this earth with His resurrected saints. For them, it's not just a matter of simple doctrinal dispute.

It sounds like you think that this is an issue that should not divide the body of Christ. And yet why does it? And like you say vehemently. What does the fruit tell you?

 

[ewq1938]

"RIGHT-MINDED CHRISTIANS...ARE ASSURED THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND A THOUSAND YEARS IN JERUSALEM, WHICH WILL THEN BE BUILT ADORNED, AND ENLARGED, AS THE PROPHETS EZEKIEL AND ISAIAH AND OTHERS DECLARE." -- JUSTIN MARTYR



Tertullian, who gave us the Latin word "Trinity" was also a strong premillennialist. He makes his premillennialism clear when he says the following: "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld."

 

[Randy Kluth]

A novel sized response without one scripture referenced in its support

"National Salvation For Israel" that you teach and promote isn't found in scripture

As I've said before, I'm not going to provide Bible references in every single post! I've already posted numerous times that this is the "Jewish Hope," based on the Abrahamic promises, Gen 12 and 17. The Prophets carry out these promises by assuring Israel that one day they would no longer have to go into exile for their sins, and no long suffer the conquests of their enemies. This is the Hope of Israel, to have the Messiah come, the son of David, to deliver Israel for all time, to set up the everlasting Kingdom of God.

We all believe in that future Kingdom. I just think it must begin with the mortal world before the final judgment, so that the promises made to Abraham can literally be fulfilled. Isa 24 is something I just recently quoted. And it describes the binding of Satan and the reign of Christ.

Isa 24.21 In that day the Lord will punish
the powers in the heavens above
and the kings on the earth below.
22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished after many days.
23 The moon will be dismayed,
the sun ashamed;
for the Lord Almighty will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before its elders—with great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is the Hope of Israel, to have the Messiah come, the son of David, to deliver Israel for all time, to set up the everlasting Kingdom of God.

We all believe in that future Kingdom. I just think it must begin with the mortal world before the final judgment, so that the promises made to Abraham can literally be fulfilled. Isa 24 is something I just recently quoted. And it describes the binding of Satan and the reign of Christ.

Isa 24.21 In that day the Lord will punish
the powers in the heavens above
and the kings on the earth below.
22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished after many days.
23 The moon will be dismayed,
the sun ashamed;
for the Lord Almighty will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before its elders—with great glory.

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[ewq1938]

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching

Obviously Jesus was warning that a false Christ would come which is unrelated to anything Mill related. This is just your own personal desperate attempt to deny the biblical Earthly Mill. This screams, "I don't understand how to support a biblical claim."

 

[robert derrick]

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture as you claim, it's a John N. Darby 1830's fabricated false teaching

There won't be a future millennium on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

As I said, the saints are not looking for Him on earth, nor in the sky, but will be with Him in the air at His return.

Only a fool will follow a man on earth sitting as God.

 

[robert derrick]

Because unbiblical doctrine is a lie! If one defends and promotes false doctrine, they are deceivers. What does Scripture say about those who teach false doctrine? If we promote false doctrine, can we really be living and walking with Jesus?

There are lies that overthrow the faith of some, and then there are differing interpretations of prophecy, that have nothing to do with walking with Jesus today.

And so, the question is why all the blustering vehemence? It's like getting all hot and bothered about whether it's the same ark that was in the wilderness, that will be seen in heaven in Rev 11. People can agree or disagree about it, but it certainly doesn't rate the kind of ire reserved for teaching lasciviousness for liberty.

I'm thinking here, that much of it is knowledge pride and pseudo righteous indignation.

 

[robert derrick]

Robert. I am amil and most of my friends on this forum are amil. In many cases we have come out of pre-mil backgrounds, and feel strongly (vehement is the wrong word) because we feel a sense of having been deceived about it earlier in our Christian walk. When I was first saved we were fed a continuous diet of late great planets, Tim LaHaye, alignment of planets, Y2K bugs, blood moons, rebuilt temples, economic collapse and pending doom.

When we found traditional eschatology, some got relieved, others got excited, and others got just plain angry. Surprise? I can only speak for myself. I don’t talk much about the millennium question except to say that I prefer the term ‘realised millennium’ rather than ‘amillennialism.’

I dont do “vehement.” But I support my friends with a bit of encouragement because they have made it there business to expose what has been bad eschatology and bad fruit for too long. I hope that answers your question bro.

It does to a degree. Thanks. I know for myself what it is to have believed false doctrine, only to find out it was tradition of men. However, there's a real difference between having been taught licentious liberty, or carnal Pentecostal holiness, than pre, post, or amillennialism.

I am actually post and pre millennial: We are now Spiritually raised with Christ, and one day with the Lord is a thousand years, and after a thousand years with the Lord, it will still be as fresh, lively, and good as day one.

However, that does not mean we have the right to throw away literal prophecy, just because we experience the spiritual fulfillment of it.

Ex: Just because we understand the spiritual significance of crossing the Red Sea on dry ground, as pertaining to our salvation and sanctification in Christ, doesn't mean we now dismiss the literal fact that it happened with the children of Israel.

Many people do that very thing, and I say it is no different with the millennial reign of Christ.

However, so long as we are spiritually resurrected with the Lord to sit in heavenly places now, why get all hot and bothered about differing interpretations on the millennium of Revelation?

I think it's mostly knowledge pride and heated arguments about pet doctrines. Afterall, a whole lot of study can go into that stuff.

I find that many sicere Christians have put so much time and effort and perhaps money into discerning certain doctrines, as well as a measure of revelation, that pride gets in the way of allowing any correction, whether great or small.

No matter how learned we get, we must never cease to come to Jesus' words, and the teaching of others, as little children without preset agendas and conclusions.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I said, the saints are not looking for Him on earth, nor in the sky, but will be with Him in the air at His return.

Only a fool will follow a man on earth sitting as God.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture as you suggest, post your scripture proving such, there isnt any!

 

[Truth7t7]

It does to a degree. Thanks. I know for myself what it is to have believed false doctrine, only to find out it was tradition of men. However, there's a real difference between having been taught licentious liberty, or carnal Pentecostal holiness, than pre, post, or amillennialism.

I am actually post and pre millennial: We are now Spiritually raised with Christ, and one day with the Lord is a thousand years, and after a thousand years with the Lord, it will still be as fresh, lively, and good as day one.

However, that does not mean we have the right to throw away literal prophecy, just because we experience the spiritual fulfillment of it.

Ex: Just because we understand the spiritual significance of crossing the Red Sea on dry ground, as pertaining to our salvation and sanctification in Christ, doesn't mean we now dismiss the literal fact that it happened with the children of Israel.

Many people do that very thing, and I say it is no different with the millennial reign of Christ.

However, so long as we are spiritually resurrected with the Lord to sit in heavenly places now, why get all hot and bothered about differing interpretations on the millennium of Revelation?

I think it's mostly knowledge pride and heated arguments about pet doctrines. Afterall, a whole lot of study can go into that stuff.

I find that many sicere Christians have put so much time and effort and perhaps money into discerning certain doctrines, as well as a measure of revelation, that pride gets in the way of allowing any correction, whether great or small.

No matter how learned we get, we must never cease to come to Jesus' words, and the teaching of others, as little children without preset agendas and conclusions.

It's my opinion that this post would reflect Robert Derrick looking in a mirror

 

[Truth7t7]

Only a fool will follow a man on earth sitting as God.

The same would be said of those following John N. Darby 1830's in a pre-trib rapture

 

[Randy Kluth]

As I said, the saints are not looking for Him on earth, nor in the sky, but will be with Him in the air at His return.

Only a fool will follow a man on earth sitting as God.

I know what you mean, but what about the 1st time he came? Shouldn't the Jews have followed him when he walked in their midst as the Son of God? ;)

We're told that Jesus is coming back just as he left, which infers that he will physically come here and dwell with his people, at least for a period of time.

I personally think that he will only come momentarily, before returning to heaven to rule over the earth from there, together with his glorified saints. The New Jerusalem descends from heaven at the end of the Millennium, in my view.