He is talking about 2 types of spiritual animal in the overall nation of Israel. He is teaching that the blinding of the majority was not wholesale and did not prevent future Jews coming through. There was/is a remnant that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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The final sign of defeat is petty name-calling. That is all you have. You have zero Scripture to bring to the table. You have no corroboration for your error.
You ignore the context, genre and setting. You have to. You are happy to spiritualize "one hour" as a short period of time but are adamantly against spiritualizing "a thousand years" as a long period of time. Hmmmm!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
If you have nothing to bring to the table then please remove yourself from this thread. You're derailing it.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well then, you and @Spiritual Israelite admitted to defeat a long time ago..........and you keep on that path.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Amil's 1,000 years has been derailed from it's very inception.
There is no scriptural evidence of a purely 'spiritual' 1,000 years that is purely 'analogical'.
John 4:24 - "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship in Spirit and TRUTH."
Feel free to give it your best shot.
LOL. This all you have. Pettiness. Address the Op, if you can.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So much for us not talking about this topic anymore! Haha. But we can do so respectfully and maybe just one last time.
I believe that you're missing the context. Let's take a closer look at the text.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
So, in verse 7, Paul initially points out that the election (remnant) "hath obtained" that "which he seeketh for", and the rest were blinded. After that his focus remains on "the rest that were blinded" in verses 8-10 since they are the ones with "the spirit of slumber" and darkened spiritual eyes. Agree?
Well, in my view, Paul continued to talk specifically about the rest who were blinded in verse 11 and he asked if thy stumbled to the point that they would fall and he said "God forbid". Surely, he wasn't asking if the remnant had stumbled. He was asking that about the ones whose table was made "a stumblingblock", which were those who were blinded. So, those who were blinded and whose table was made a stumblingblock did not stumble to the point of falling. Calvinism says they fell and were made reprobate, but Paul says they stumbled and did not fall.
So, in my view, Paul was saying God forbid that they had fallen and were reprobate. No, they were blinded only temporarily for the purpose of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles to make them jealous. Paul wished to take advantage of their jealously to make them too want to be saved like the Gentiles were, and that's what he was saying in verses 13 and 14.
Later Paul said this about those Israelites who were blinded and cut off in his day.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Paul did not give up on those who were blinded and cut off because of their unbelief. He hoped to lead some of them to "abide not still in unbelief" so that they could be saved.
Edit: My letter "e" key on my keyboard is not working well, so if I have any typos missing the letter "e", that's why.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Ok, easy!
@Scott Downey, i was asked to address your OP.
Scott used 'eisegesis' in his conclusion of:
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. You call that addressing the OP? You're all talk. You are unable to form any coherent arguments to back up your false doctrine.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Why are you lying? Repent of your lies. We never admitted to defeat ever and we never will. Amillennialism is true. Period.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Please address my post directly. We are confronting a preconceived notion that you may not have examined yourself. My posts are not meant to explain what Paul said, but rather to correct the common misinterpretation. Disabusing someone of a commonly held mistaken interpretation takes much more effort and time.
I respectfully disagree. A cursory examination of the passage will reveal that Paul encourages believers to focus on eternal hope rather than temporary struggles. The passage does not address what occurs immediately after death. Instead, starting in 2 Corinthians 3:16, Paul encourages his readers not to lose hope and provides reasons to remain positive and optimistic. He contrasts temporal matters with eternal ones.
4:16-18: Paul reminds us that while our outer self may be wasting away, our inner self is being renewed daily. He describes present suffering as "light and momentary", compared to the eternal glory that awaits believers.
5:1-5: Paul contrasts our earthly bodies with a heavenly dwelling, explaining that while we groan in our current state, God has prepared an eternal home for us. The Holy Spirit serves as a guarantee of this future transformation.
5:6-10: Paul urges believers to live with confidence, knowing that being absent from the body means being present with the Lord. He emphasizes that all will stand before Christ’s judgment seat, where their actions will be evaluated.
He contrasts the limitations of our earthly existence with the promise of being fully present with the Lord in eternity. Paul is emphasizing that our earthly bodies are temporary and subject to weakness, but our eternal existence will be in glorified bodies, fully renewed and suited for everlasting life with God.
This connects to what Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44, where he contrasts our perishable, weak, and natural bodies with the imperishable, powerful, and spiritual bodies we will receive. Our earthly tent will be replaced with a heavenly dwelling (2 Corinthians 5:1), meaning that in eternity, we won't just exist as spirits—we will have new, glorified bodies, designed for perfect communion with God.
He is talking generally about a nation, particularly 2 camps within the nation. Not so much individuals. Granted blindness generally does not require reprobation. But when God does it, it is over. Paul saw the blindness of the Christ-rejecting camp has not wholesale or final. He saw the opportunities for future Jews to be provoked through Gentille favor.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The grain represents the sons and daughters of Israel, regardless of their spiritual status. God waits until AFTER he has brought them back to the land to circumcise their hearts.
Ezekiel describes this process as a dry field of bones forming into a skeleton. After the skeleton is formed and flesh is added to the body, then and only then does the spirit enter the body. Ezekiel 37:1-14
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I will not. I know it's a waste of time. I already gave my understanding of this and you disagreed. I have nothing to add to what I've already said. Don't just look at 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, but also look at Philippians 1:20-24 for a better understanding of what Paul taught that happens to people immediately upon their bodily deaths.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He is talking about salvation, which is obviously an individual thing, so I have to disagree.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Who do you think the broken off branches that were broken off because of unbelief represent? I believe they represent those who were blinded. So, I see verse 23 here as saying if those who were blinded do not abide still in unbelief, then they could be saved, which is what being grafted in represents. You seem to think Paul was talking about some future time when Jews could be grafted in? Where is that indicated that he was only talking about Jews being grafted into the olive tree in the future? I mean no offense, but that reminds me of dispensationalism. The context of what he was talking about included those who were broken off in his day.
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