Q for JW- KIEW?
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Kiew,
I hope you've read Ro Ch 6 in context? I haven't seen a reply to that? I replied to where you mentioned, grace and I replied. No, I was never baptized as a JW. I have studied what you believe though. I have family who are active Jws. Didn't you read the conversation I posted about my dad dying?
Once you understand Romans Chapter 6 better- study these below next. Jesus really did die for our sins!!
I know how insane it sounds!!! But it's true! Start to BELIEVE God and see what happens! Pray and ask Him to help you to see His grace.
Read that bible! Keep praying! After a bit the bible will make more sense to you than ever!
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross Col 2:13-14
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Cor 15:3
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1Peter 2:24
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Romans 4:25
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6
And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Eph 5:2
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Tim 2:6
Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. Matt 20:28
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive 1 Cor 15:22
He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, Col 1:22
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Ro 5:6
You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5
Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Gal 1:4
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: ;that one has died for all, therefore all have died 2 Cor 5:14
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, Heb 10:12
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” Gal 3:13
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:14-16
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Col 1:19-23
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:4-7
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:8-10
And yes, of course it goes without saying that we agree that Jesus died for Adam's sin in which we were also all subject to death. Gen 3:19, Ro 5:12, 1 Cor 15 21-22, 53-54, Heb 2:9, 2 Tim 1:10, ,Rom 8:20, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:24, Rom 5:10, Col 1:20, Eph 2:14-18, Eph 2:1-5.
That is NOT TRUE. I was not baptized as JW. I am aware of much of what you teach and the organization's history. THAT MAKES YOU SHUN ME?!!!! How cowardly of you. Only the ignorant of your teachings allowed in your world?
When my father died, my Jw relative told me that our dad died for forgiveness of his own sins. I posted that conversation on here. Didnt you read my post? THAT, I had not been taught before! If it was, I sure didn't catch it.
You deny Christ by trying to substitute yourself as sacrifice for your own sins! You are not spotless and blameless and will be rejected as the atonement for your own sins ! That is INSANE! THIS IS THE WORST JW LIE. Read Romans in CONTEXT. I posted it all for you. You have ignored it! Why?
It is a simple choice- DEATH or CHRIST.
OR are you here just to bait and argue hellfire and the trinity with uninformed Christians who don't know any better. YES, that is what JWS do. Deceive.
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Keiw
Well-Known Member
Jesus teaching-Matt 7:21-23--shows you are twisting Romans 6. The only ones getting grace are the ones who obey Jesus. There is no sacrifice left for any who practice a sin( or willfull sin) Heb 10:26Kiew,
I hope you've read Ro Ch 6 in context? I haven't seen a reply to that? I replied to where you mentioned, grace and I replied. No, I was never baptized as a JW. I have studied what you believe though. I have family who are active Jws. Didn't you read the conversation I posted about my dad dying?
Once you understand Romans Chapter 6 better- study these below next. Jesus really did die for our sins!!
I know how insane it sounds!!! But it's true! Start to BELIEVE God and see what happens! Pray and ask Him to help you to see His grace.
Read that bible! Keep praying! After a bit the bible will make more sense to you than ever!
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross Col 2:13-14
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Cor 15:3
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. 1 Peter 3:18
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1Peter 2:24
Who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Romans 4:25
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:6
And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Eph 5:2
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Tim 2:6
Even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. Matt 20:28
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive 1 Cor 15:22
He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, Col 1:22
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. Ro 5:6
You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5
Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, Gal 1:4
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: ;that one has died for all, therefore all have died 2 Cor 5:14
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, Heb 10:12
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” Gal 3:13
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:14-16
For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Col 1:19-23
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:4-7
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Eph 2:8-10
And yes, of course it goes without saying that we agree that Jesus died for Adam's sin in which we were also all subject to death. Gen 3:19, Ro 5:12, 1 Cor 15 21-22, 53-54, Heb 2:9, 2 Tim 1:10, ,Rom 8:20, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:24, Rom 5:10, Col 1:20, Eph 2:14-18, Eph 2:1-5.
The only ones going to heaven are the little flock( Luke 12:32)= 144,000 bought from the earth( Rev 14:3)=the anointed bride of Christ-These will sit on thrones and rule as kings and priests alongside of Jesus( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)- they are numbered)--The great crowd( Rev 7:9) no man can number are the other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold. Not promised heaven anywhere in Gods bible. Only the little flock and Great crowd will get Grace. And do not forget Jesus is clear-FEW will find the road that leads off into life( be saved, get grace, etc)
Kiew,
I am still awaiting a reply on all of verses in context that I posted. Let's stay with this topic please.
I am very familiar with Matt 7:21-23 too. It has NOTHING to do with the Watchtower's false teaching of ROMANS 6! Address these verses please?
The other things you brought up can be all addressed easily, but not without comprehending Romans 6:7 and 23. lol
I once had a zillion questions too. One thing at a time, ok? That's the only way. We all crawl then walk.
Here are the verses again. begin at verse 1 and go verse by verse. Once you see what it actually says- we can keep going.
I would like to start with Romans 1 to understand these verses in context with my JW friends. Feel free of course to check me with your NWT bible. Please pray for understanding and read along with me verse by verse? This is a letter and needs to be read as such, agree? I am not adding my own commentary in between verses 1-10. We are just reading the scriptures, ok? I am not trying to trick anyone.
Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
I think that's enough to show the proper context, so you can see that Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
Do you see that yet, Kiew?
Keiw
Well-Known Member
All sin. But there are lists found at 1Cor 6:9-11, and Gal 5:19-21 is what Paul was saying are the sins they died to. They are unacceptable to God. Paul mentions spiritism at Gal, the Greek word = Pharmacia, thus drug addiction is apart of that, So along with those 2 lists and all the false god worship on earth= 99% on earth, 1% are the few Jesus said would find the road.
Jesus died for all of our personal sins. Is that what you mean? i'm sorry , but "all sin" isn't a sentence.
Do you see in Romans 6 that it is not speaking of our physical death?
Can i get a just yes or a no?
please don't jump ahead of me here. Let's stay with the basic meaning of Paul in Romans.
No one is saying that it's ok to sin.
Here are the verses of our topic again. Take your time to read them carefully, ok?
Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
I think that's enough to show the proper context, so you can see that Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!
Do you see that yet, Kiew?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Everyone who has ever lived, died once in this world (with the exception of the few that were resurrected by Christ or his apostles, who were demonstrating what the resurrection would mean in the new world to come)….but then there are those who experience “the second death”…..”the lake of fire”. Nothing thrown into that symbolic “lake” ever comes out of it. “Death and hades” are also thrown into this “lake”.
So to die this second kind of death is because of incorrigible wickedness. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life.
The judgment at the end of this present world system will see those whom Jesus judges as “goats” receiving the same fate that is reserved for satan and his demons, (Matt 25:41) who are thrown into an abyss for the full thousand years of Christ’s reign.….a time reserved for the resurrection and education of all who are redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice……but satan will be released once the thousand years is up. (Rev 20:1-3) To test all mankind, now cleansed from the sin inherited from Adam. It will be only “a little while” because those who are going to be deceived by the devil’s old, tried and true tactics, will show themselves quite quickly, and then all rebels will be despatched forever…leaving only the faithful ones to populate the earth and carry out God’s first purpose for them.
What God purposed in the beginning is accomplished at the end. (Isa 55:11)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry you didn’t understand what my post was pointing out….
What does “Destroy“ mean in that statement by Jesus…..
”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
“Gehenna” is not “hell”…..there is no hell such as is taught by Christendom, inherited from the RCC.
God has no need or desire to torture anyone, let alone do so for all eternity. His justice demands no such thing.
Look it up in a concordance……”destroy” doesn’t mean eternal suffering…..the word in Greek is “apollymi” and it means….”to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin”.
God can destroy life….humans cannot destroy a life that God can restore.
Humans can only kill the body….
How can you fail to understand that? Is the doctrine of an immortal soul standing in the way? It does not exist in Scripture….
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
RLT63
Well-Known Member
If a soul was just a life, anyone could kill the soul. When I shoot you, you die, it would mean I killed your body and soul. This verse says I can’t do that.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Then perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the word “Gehenna”? You have to understand that Jesus was speaking to Jews who had no notion of an immortal soul existing after death. Gehenna was a place of no return….those who went to Gehenna had no prospect of a resurrection….they would be forever dead. Whatever went into Gehenna, never came out. Christendom adopted the idea of an immortal soul from the Greeks and turned “hell” into a place where some fiendish god would delight in torturing souls forever…..that is not found in the Bible. The dead are not conscious, so they can feel nothing, see nothing, nor experience any kind of suffering. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
The word “soul“ refers to a living, breathing creature. Look in Genesis and see that all creatures who breathe are called souls…all breathe the same air, and die the same death….they stop breathing. We have no advantage over animals in death. (Eccl 3:20-21)
What we do have, that they do not, is the prospect of the resurrection, which Jesus will perform when the Kingdom rules this earth. (John 5:28-29) He will bring all the dead back to life.…calling them all from the same place……their tombs.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Those living at the time of the judgment will not get second chances…those who have died before that takes place are “acquitted” of their former sin by their own death. (Rom 6:7)
The word in Greek is “dikaioō” and it means to be “ acquitted of sin”…no longer held to account because all the charges have been dismissed. Being “acquitted” means that a person is free from the charges formerly held against him.
The dead are judged after their resurrection, as Jesus said……which will determine if they can be repentant and turn their lives around, God can forgive them even as he forgave Manasseh…..a man who offended God by his wicked ways at every opportunity…..yet he was forgiven because he repented.
CLASSIC JW WHO IGNORES CONTEXT! Look at your post! ECC 9:5? LOL YOU DO NOT KNOW OF WHAT YOU SPEAK AS USUAL., Yet that never stops you!
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.
HELLO?
DO YOU NOT TEACH THAT YOU WILL HAVE A REWARD?
DO YOU NOT TEACH THAT YOU LIVE IN THE MEMORY OF JEHOVAH? ISN'T THAT YOUR CONCEPT OF WHAT A RESURRECTION IS? LOL
can u see that this is speaking from the ungodly perspective!!?!! IT's ECCLESIASTES!!!
Stop posting on this thread please. You don't come into the house of somone shunned as you have announced my shunning, and use their things or do you?
ROMANS 6:7 IS NOT ABOUT PHYSICAL DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE TEACHING FALSELY.
POSTERS, PLEASE KEEP ON TOPIC. It's Romans 6:7-23.
AUNTIE JANE IS PURPOSEFULLY DERAILING FROM IT. THAT"S WHAT JWS DO! DONT TAKE THE BAIT!
AUNTIE JANE IS PURPOSEFULLY DERAILING FROM IT. THAT"S WHAT JWS DO! DONT TAKE THE BAIT!
RLT63
Well-Known Member
You’re ignoring the first half of the verse. It has nothing to do with Hell or Gehenna. Do nor become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. If a soul is just a life this makes no sense.
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