Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not as Jesus was prophesying to the Jews it didn't! Ask any Jew in that day . . . there was no lack of clarity,

Who are the chosen people? The elect? Israel. Who are the nations? Everyone else.

Do you just ignore a vast majority of the New Testament? Gentiles are among the elect as well!

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The above passage is Paul talking to both Jew and Gentile believers collectively as "God's elect".

Here is Paul writing "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse" (Col 1:2):

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul writing to the church of the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

There is no excuse for being so ignorant about what the New Testament teaches.

 

[Atarah]

Genesis 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."

Genesis 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

The language here is clear—the covenant is with Isaac's and later with Jacob's descendants, to the exclusion of all other peoples.


Before this covenant, God treated the people of the earth as one. Following this event, the children of Abram (later renamed Abraham) were (s)elected by God and separated from those known as the Gentiles. The only requirement placed upon Abram and his descendants was that they be circumcised and later obey the Torah.

By this act, God elected to make an everlasting covenant of relationship with Abram and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. The Gentiles enjoyed none of the benefits of this covenant unless they joined themselves to Israel (as proselytes) through circumcision or marriage.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Genesis 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."

Genesis 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

The language here is clear—the covenant is with Isaac's and later with Jacob's descendants, to the exclusion of all other peoples.


Before this covenant, God treated the people of the earth as one. Following this event, the children of Abram (later renamed Abraham) were (s)elected by God and separated from those known as the Gentiles. The only requirement placed upon Abram and his descendants was that they be circumcised and later obey the Torah.

By this act, God elected to make an everlasting covenant of relationship with Abram and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. The Gentiles enjoyed none of the benefits of this covenant unless they joined themselves to Israel (as proselytes) through circumcision or marriage.

You need to read the New Testament. God's promises to Abraham and his seed were to Abraham and his seed, which is Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16). And apply to all who belong to Jesus Christ as well (Gal 3:29). All believers, Jew and Gentile, "like Isaac, are children of promise" (Gal 4:28) which are those who "are regarded as Abraham's offspring" (Romans 9:8).

Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written: "Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.” 28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Atarah]

Total nonsense. The church is the bride of Christ. You need to read the New Testament.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Your reference to Eph 5:22 is about husbands and wives—already joined. If I let scripture speak, it also refers to Christ as head of his body, the church. Scriptures clearly refer to the church as the body of Christ. The ONLY clear reference to the Bride of Christ refers to Jerusalem - "Revelation 21:9-10 “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem." Jerusalem is Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your reference to Eph 5:22 is about husbands and wives—already joined. If I let scripture speak, it also refers to Christ as head of his body, the church.

In Ephesians 5:22-32 Paul compares the relationship of Christ to His church directly to that of a husband to his wife. Paul explained in verse 32 that what he had been talking about related to a husband's relationship to his wife was Christ and His church. So, the bride of Christ is the church. This couldn't be more clear.

Scriptures clearly refer to the church as the body of Christ. The ONLY clear reference to the Bride of Christ refers to Jerusalem - "Revelation 21:9-10 “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem." Jerusalem is Israel.

The new, holy Jerusalem is not old, earthly Jerusalem. You are sadly mistaken. It is instead the heavenly Jerusalem, which represents the church.

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

[dad]

ABSOLUTELY TRUE with adjustment to your statement

1 Thess 1:10 - wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5: 9 - For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

DOUBLE EMPHASIS = We are NOT appointed to God's wrath

The wrath refers to the tribulation or last several years I would think.

 

[dad]

Both sides agree COMPLETELY with those passages

ok

 

[dad]

How about those lost sheep of Israel?

Much love!

Yes Israel is a big part of the reason for the tribulation. Looking at the results in the very end though we see that the vast vast vast vast vast majority of sheep are from various nations and peoples etc. While this also is the time of Jacob's trouble. it is a whole lot bigger than that.

 

[David in NJ]

The wrath refers to the tribulation or last several years I would think.

Where is that in scripture???

 

[Atarah]

In Ephesians 5:22-32 Paul compares the relationship of Christ to His church directly to that of a husband to his wife. Paul explained in verse 32 that what he had been talking about related to a husband's relationship to his wife was Christ and His church. So, the bride of Christ is the church. This couldn't be more clear.


The new, holy Jerusalem is not old, earthly Jerusalem. You are sadly mistaken. It is instead the heavenly Jerusalem, which represents the church.

Hebrews 12:18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.” 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” 22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Audience and context! To what audience was the book of Hebrews written? Hint: it's a trick question...
The Old Covenant was an everlasting covenant - Genesis 17:7 (NASB) I will establish My covenant between Me and you (Abram) and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you (Abram) and to your descendants after you. Their rejection of Jesus opened an opportunity for the Gentiles (for a time) to enjoy God's favor. That time will come to an end... then what?

 

[marks]

Total nonsense. The church is the bride of Christ. You need to read the New Testament.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

This is a simile, not an equivalency.

The Bible teaches plainly that God was wed to Israel, that is, the nation in the OT that we all know exactly who it is, that God divorced Israel, the same one He married, and that He will re-wed Israel, again, that very same one to whom He was married then divorced.

No similies, no metaphors, no allegories, just the straightforward statement of prophecy. And then you have the several times in the NT that the church is compared to a bride, but is not in fact named a bride. What we are actually named is "the body of Christ".

If if you want to know what the Bible says about it, that's what it says. Would you like to examine each of these passages with me? I'm guessing you already know them, considering that you debate this point.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Audience and context! To what audience was the book of Hebrews written? Hint: it's a trick question...
The Old Covenant was an everlasting covenant - Genesis 17:7 (NASB) I will establish My covenant between Me and you (Abram) and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you (Abram) and to your descendants after you. Their rejection of Jesus opened an opportunity for the Gentiles (for a time) to enjoy God's favor. That time will come to an end... then what?

Not to you = you are a unbeliever.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes Israel is a big part of the reason for the tribulation. Looking at the results in the very end though we see that the vast vast vast vast vast majority of sheep are from various nations and peoples etc. While this also is the time of Jacob's trouble. it is a whole lot bigger than that.

Keep GOING on the PATH of TRUTH @dad = the Holy Spirit is helping you SEE

REJECT the doctrines of men for they are foolishness to God.

Believe JESUS: Matt 4:4 "man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

 

[David in NJ]

Do you think that Jesus didn't know that would happen? He surely did. That's why He said this:

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The other sheep are the Gentiles who were not of the fold of the Jews, but were joined together with them as one fold. One body. One church. Just as other scripture teaches.

Why would God want to return to an exclusive relationship with Israel after sending His Son to shed His blood in order to bring Jew and Gentile believers together as one? That makes no sense whatsoever.

You are basically saying that what Jesus accomplished through His sacrifice will be undone in the future. No chance! That will not happen.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


Total nonsense. The church is the bride of Christ. You need to read the New Testament.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

They are blind leading the blind

The TERROR that awaits them when they stand before the LORD and there heresies burn up in their faces.

 

[David in NJ]

That isn't true, that is a lie from the pit of hell.

The elect include Gentiles, as scripture makes abundantly clear.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The above passage is Paul talking to both Jew and Gentile believers collectively as "the elect".

Here is Paul writing "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse" (Col 1:2):

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul writing to the church of the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

There is no excuse for being so ignorant about what the New Testament teaches.

They are false witness, bearing witness to doctrines of men that oppose the Holy Scriptures of TRUTH

 

[David in NJ]

Genesis 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."

Genesis 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

The language here is clear—the covenant is with Isaac's and later with Jacob's descendants, to the exclusion of all other peoples.


Before this covenant, God treated the people of the earth as one. Following this event, the children of Abram (later renamed Abraham) were (s)elected by God and separated from those known as the Gentiles. The only requirement placed upon Abram and his descendants was that they be circumcised and later obey the Torah.

By this act, God elected to make an everlasting covenant of relationship with Abram and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. The Gentiles enjoyed none of the benefits of this covenant unless they joined themselves to Israel (as proselytes) through circumcision or marriage.

Genesis 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."

includes @marks

And who are the descendants/ the seed of Abraham according to GOD..............the SEED of CHRIST

Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

@Atarah and @marks = you are opposing the Holy Spirit with you arrogance against "IT IS WRITTEN" = the Word of God

 

[Atarah]

This is a simile, not an equivalency.

The Bible teaches plainly that God was wed to Israel, that is, the nation in the OT that we all know exactly who it is, that God divorced Israel, the same one He married, and that He will re-wed Israel, again, that very same one to whom He was married then divorced.

No similies, no metaphors, no allegories, just the straightforward statement of prophecy. And then you have the several times in the NT that the church is compared to a bride, but is not in fact named a bride. What we are actually named is "the body of Christ".

If if you want to know what the Bible says about it, that's what it says. Would you like to examine each of these passages with me? I'm guessing you already know them, considering that you debate this point.

Much love!

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

This is not about brides and grooms, it's about husbands and wives - those already joined. Show me one verse that clearly says the church, which is already the body of Christ, already seated with Christ in Heavenly places, is also the future bride of Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

This is not about brides and grooms, it's about husbands and wives - those already joined. Show me one verse that clearly says the church, which is already the body of Christ, already seated with Christ in Heavenly places, is also the future bride of Christ.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Open your blind eyes and allow the Holy Spirit to circumcise your heart of flesh

 

[TribulationSigns]

Audience and context! To what audience was the book of Hebrews written? Hint: it's a trick question...
The Old Covenant was an everlasting covenant - Genesis 17:7 (NASB) I will establish My covenant between Me and you (Abram) and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you (Abram) and to your descendants after you. Their rejection of Jesus opened an opportunity for the Gentiles (for a time) to enjoy God's favor. That time will come to an end... then what?

NASB is a bad modern translation.

Gen 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

"Thy seed" is JESUS CHRIST! All Elect from the Old Testament and the New Testament IN CHRIST are whom God has made an everlasting covenant with. Abraham is the father of all nations, including us the New Testament elect in Christ, thy seed! It is not about national Israel or applies to the ethnic Jews only.

 

[David in NJ]

NASB is a bad modern translation.

Gen 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Thy seed is JESUS CHRIST! All Elect from the Old Testament and the New Testament IN CHRIST is whom God have made a everlasting covenant with. Abraham is the father of all nation, including us the New Testament elect in Christ, thy seed! Not about national Israel or the ethinic Jews only.

There is a diabolical movement to establish a false doctrine of two gospels = one for the Jews and a separate one for the Gentiles

The method of entry for this evil is "context, context, context" by John McArthur and others

These are men that rely on their own intellect, which becomes an idol, and they become blinded to the very scriptures which saved them.
They will fight against the Holy Spirit, while declaring to live by the spirit.
The SAME downfall of the Israelites - Jeremiah 5:30-31

An astonishing and horrible thing
Has been committed in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?