Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[David in NJ]

Since we are not here for the wrath of God, that means before.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE with adjustment to your statement

1 Thess 1:10 - wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5: 9 - For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

DOUBLE EMPHASIS = We are NOT appointed to God's wrath

 

[David in NJ]

Good Night @dad

 

[ewq1938]

I don't hear many, or anyone, talk about the purpose of the rapture. It we could identify its purpose we might find it easier to identify its timing and those it affects.

Jesus wants to return with his saints and he will bring the dead in Christ saints with him but the saints still alive will be scattered all over the Earth so a rapture is needed to bring them all from where ever each person is on the Earth to one central location in the clouds so they can as a group follow Christ as he completes his second coming. This is why the rapture is also called a "gathering".

2Th_2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Green is the second coming and red is the rapture.

 

[Atarah]

Many people quote Matthew and the other gospels unaware of a very significant issue—context. Jesus told the gentile woman that he was sent "only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Because of the exclusive covenant relationship between Israel and God, Jesus was obligated to minister to Israel, not the Gentiles. All of His teaching in the gospels is primarily for and about Israel. Only after rejecting Him were the Gentiles admitted into a relationship with God. If that is the case, and I believe it's key to understand the end times properly, then everything about Matthew 24 applies to Israel, who will be going through the tribulation period. The term 'Elect' always refers to Israel. The Gentiles are 'the invited.' For a more detailed explanation, search for 'Of Covenants and Favour'.

 

[Atarah]

Good question. In the case of pre-trib, there is no apparent point to it. Especially when it comes to having any reason to meet Jesus in the air. If the pre-trib rapture was true, then why meet Jesus in the air instead of just meeting Him in heaven where pre-trib says we go after meeting Him in the air? It makes no sense.

But, in the case of post-trib, we meet Him in the air because Christ's wrath comes down on the entire earth at that time (Luke 21:33-36, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12) and we are not appointed to His wrath (1 Thess 5:9).

I find that the purpose of the rapture is so that God can avoid a breach of contract. He contracted an exclusive relationship with Israel. For that reason, Jesus told the Gentile woman that he had come "only for the lost sheep of Israel." When Israel rejected Him, a relationship with the Gentiles became possible. When this time of the Gentiles is complete and Israel returns to God, the exclusive relationship has to be reinstated. The rapture removes all the followers of Jesus so that God is not obligated to abandon them. We Gentile believers, as the body of Christ, can now return with Jesus after the tribulation period to claim the bride of Christ, which is Israel. More details in an article called "Rapture with a Purpose" in 'beinaberean'.

 

[Douggg]

I don't hear many, or anyone, talk about the purpose of the rapture. It we could identify its purpose we might find it easier to identify its timing and those it affects.

The purpose partly will be so that believers don't have to go through the great tribulation when wrath from God and also from Satan, when he is cast down to earth having just a short time left, of a time, times, half time, will take place all around the world.

1Thessalonians5:9-11. The rapture/resurrection is verse 10.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

As we get closer to that time, the window for the rapture/resurrection event keeps getting smaller.

 

[David in NJ]

Many people quote Matthew and the other gospels unaware of a very significant issue—context. Jesus told the gentile woman that he was sent "only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Because of the exclusive covenant relationship between Israel and God, Jesus was obligated to minister to Israel, not the Gentiles. All of His teaching in the gospels is primarily for and about Israel. Only after rejecting Him were the Gentiles admitted into a relationship with God. If that is the case, and I believe it's key to understand the end times properly, then everything about Matthew 24 applies to Israel, who will be going through the tribulation period. The term 'Elect' always refers to Israel. The Gentiles are 'the invited.' For a more detailed explanation, search for 'Of Covenants and Favour'.

Because of the exclusive covenant relationship between Israel and God, Jesus was obligated to minister to Israel, not the Gentiles. All of His teaching in the gospels is primarily for and about Israel. Only after rejecting Him were the Gentiles admitted into a relationship with God

You are only partly correct AND GREATLY mistaken not knowing the Scriptures concerning JESUS the MESSIAH.

Your understanding is from men and their false teachings:
Falsehood #1 - pre-trib rapture
Falsehood #2 - Dispensationalism

RENEW your mind that it may be in CHRIST and HIM alone. Go back to Genesis and read carefully chapters 1 ,2 , 3

 

[rebuilder 454]

i SEE the Ecumenical police removed a statement of fact from my post.

Dear Moderators, please read Proverbs 30:5-6 and KNOW that pre-trib rapture cannot be found coming out of the Mouth of God.
ie - it does not exist anywhere in Scripture

The phrase 'pre-trib' rapture is calling the LORD a 'fibber'(ok/better) because JESUS says that HE is Coming "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation"
Matthew chapter 24 and JESUS said this as well MORE then once = John 16:33

The Apostles Paul and John said that JESUS Coming is AFTER the Antichrist = 2 Thessalonians and 1 John
James said that the LORD returns AFTER Tribulation and Great Suffering

How many of God's Witnesses must you hear from???

Holy Spirit REVIVAL begins when we submit to God's words and walk in them.

Ecumenicalism is opposing God's words so that we all get along!

This is why the LORD Jesus Christ said this: Revelation 22:18-19

Yawn.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The dead in Christ arise first, and then we that are alive. All in a twinkling of an eye

1 Cor 15:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Both sides agree COMPLETELY with those passages

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Many people quote Matthew and the other gospels unaware of a very significant issue—context. Jesus told the gentile woman that he was sent "only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Because of the exclusive covenant relationship between Israel and God, Jesus was obligated to minister to Israel, not the Gentiles. All of His teaching in the gospels is primarily for and about Israel. Only after rejecting Him were the Gentiles admitted into a relationship with God. If that is the case, and I believe it's key to understand the end times properly, then everything about Matthew 24 applies to Israel, who will be going through the tribulation period. The term 'Elect' always refers to Israel. The Gentiles are 'the invited.' For a more detailed explanation, search for 'Of Covenants and Favour'.

This is absolutely false. Jesus did make mention of the Gentiles, but just not explicitly.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

In the NT the elect refer to those who belong to Christ.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The above passage is Paul talking to both Jew and Gentile believers collectively as "the elect".

Here is Paul writing "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse" (Col 1:2):

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul writing to the church of the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Jesus knew that the elect included Gentiles before that was ever explicitly revealed, so there is no basis for thinking that the elect in Matthew 24 only includes Jews.

 

[marks]

Many people quote Matthew and the other gospels unaware of a very significant issue—context. Jesus told the gentile woman that he was sent "only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24). Because of the exclusive covenant relationship between Israel and God, Jesus was obligated to minister to Israel, not the Gentiles. All of His teaching in the gospels is primarily for and about Israel. Only after rejecting Him were the Gentiles admitted into a relationship with God. If that is the case, and I believe it's key to understand the end times properly, then everything about Matthew 24 applies to Israel, who will be going through the tribulation period. The term 'Elect' always refers to Israel. The Gentiles are 'the invited.' For a more detailed explanation, search for 'Of Covenants and Favour'.

Failing to understand this basic truth is the cause of a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Something Jesus would do in the future. This does not change that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel at that time. We shouldn't blur the lines like this.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How about to get His people, alive or dead out of here before that time when He wraps things up on earth? How about a rescue? How about a marriage supper?

How about those lost sheep of Israel?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find that the purpose of the rapture is so that God can avoid a breach of contract. He contracted an exclusive relationship with Israel. For that reason, Jesus told the Gentile woman that he had come "only for the lost sheep of Israel." When Israel rejected Him, a relationship with the Gentiles became possible.

Do you think that Jesus didn't know that would happen? He surely did. That's why He said this:

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The other sheep are the Gentiles who were not of the fold of the Jews, but were joined together with them as one fold. One body. One church. Just as other scripture teaches.

When this time of the Gentiles is complete and Israel returns to God, the exclusive relationship has to be reinstated.

Why would God want to return to an exclusive relationship with Israel after sending His Son to shed His blood in order to bring Jew and Gentile believers together as one? That makes no sense whatsoever.

You are basically saying that what Jesus accomplished through His sacrifice will be undone in the future. No chance! That will not happen.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

The rapture removes all the followers of Jesus so that God is not obligated to abandon them. We Gentile believers, as the body of Christ, can now return with Jesus after the tribulation period to claim the bride of Christ, which is Israel. More details in an article called "Rapture with a Purpose" in 'beinaberean'.

Total nonsense. The church is the bride of Christ. You need to read the New Testament.

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Something Jesus would do in the future. This does not change that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel at that time. We shouldn't blur the lines like this.

Much love!

You are ignoring much scripture here. He has already brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one, as passages like this show clearly:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This couldn't be more clear. In the past, before Jesus shed His blood for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), the Gentiles were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". Then Paul said "But, NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ". And he said Jesus "hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby". And he said "NOW therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone". With all this in mind, how can you say that Jesus will do in the future what Paul said is true NOW?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Failing to understand this basic truth is the cause of a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding.

Much love!

That isn't true, that is a lie from the pit of hell.

The elect include Gentiles, as scripture makes abundantly clear.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The above passage is Paul talking to both Jew and Gentile believers collectively as "the elect".

Here is Paul writing "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse" (Col 1:2):

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Here is Paul writing to the church of the Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

There is no excuse for being so ignorant about what the New Testament teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find that the purpose of the rapture is so that God can avoid a breach of contract. He contracted an exclusive relationship with Israel. For that reason, Jesus told the Gentile woman that he had come "only for the lost sheep of Israel." When Israel rejected Him, a relationship with the Gentiles became possible. When this time of the Gentiles is complete and Israel returns to God, the exclusive relationship has to be reinstated. The rapture removes all the followers of Jesus so that God is not obligated to abandon them. We Gentile believers, as the body of Christ, can now return with Jesus after the tribulation period to claim the bride of Christ, which is Israel. More details in an article called "Rapture with a Purpose" in 'beinaberean'.

What about what I said about the purpose of meeting Him in the air? Tell me what is the purpose of that if He is just going to turn back around and bring us to heaven? Why not just meet Him in heaven then?

 

[marks]

You are ignoring much scripture here.

Actually, I was speaking concerning Jesus' statements at that time concerning His ministry at that time. Please engage with that text if you want to discuss this with me.

And don't just toss out these half baked "You are ignoring Scripture", we all know why you do it and what it's worth. It just tells me you aren't interested in a reasoned or reasonable discussion, and that you must not have much belief in your own arguments if you feel you have to bolster them in this way.

It certainly doesn't make me feel inclined to engage with you. Maybe that's the idea, be so distasteful that I'll just go away and you won't have to actually answer. In any case, I don't see anything in your post that actually addresses what I wrote.

To restate, Jesus' ministry while on the earth before His death was to Israel. This is the context you must maintain as you endeavor to show interpretations of His teachings and prophecies.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The elect include Gentiles, as scripture makes abundantly clear.

Not as Jesus was prophesying to the Jews it didn't! Ask any Jew in that day . . . there was no lack of clarity,

Who are the chosen people? The elect? Israel. Who are the nations? Everyone else.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, I was speaking concerning Jesus' statements at that time concerning His ministry at that time. Please engage with that text if you want to discuss this with me.

Are you not speaking in relation to who the elect are in Matthew 24, which is what was being discussed?

And don't just toss out these half baked "You are ignoring Scripture", we all know why you do it and what it's worth.

Do you not? Why would you say what you did when it clearly contradicts other scripture? He clearly did not come just to die for Jews, but also for Gentiles, so Gentiles are also among the elect.

It just tells me you aren't interested in a reasoned or reasonable discussion, and that you must not have much belief in your own arguments if you feel you have to bolster them in this way.

You are so overly sensitive that it makes it almost impossible to talk to you. Do you really have to be so easily offended?

It certainly doesn't make me feel inclined to engage with you.

That's your choice. I won't lose any sleep if you decide not to.

Maybe that's the idea, be so distasteful that I'll just go away and you won't have to actually answer.

LOL. Do you actually think I'm afraid to answer you? You have to be kidding me. Please be serious.

In any case, I don't see anything in your post that actually addresses what I wrote.

Why don't you address what was actually being discussed then?

To restate, Jesus' ministry while on the earth before His death was to Israel. This is the context you must maintain as you endeavor to show interpretations of His teachings and prophecies.

Yes, but why apply that to the future as well, which is what someone was doing? It seems that you don't even understand what was being discussed. Just because His ministry was to the Jews first doesn't mean He never had the Gentiles in mind. It's just that He knew He was going to have His apostles preach to the Gentiles, so that isn't what He came to do.