Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul did not say how many resurrection events there would be in 1Corinthinans 15:22-23.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The order is....

(1) the rapture/resurrection event (before the great tribulation) when Jesus comes in the air,

(2) as a martyred great tribulation saints (after the great tribulation is over) at Jesus's Second Coming,

then 1000 years

(3) at the GWT judgment,

LOL. You are so dishonest. He did say how many resurrection events there are and he gave the order. Jesus was first. Next in order are "they that are Christ's at his coming.". So, there's two resurrection events, one of which was Christ's resurrection itself. The other is those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it. That is what Paul taught. But, you, like many people here, do not accept what Paul taught. The lack of respect for Paul's teachings that I see from many people on this forum is disgusting.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am gratified that you SI, at least know the Biblically correct sequence of resurrections.

Did you change your mind about this? I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ referenced in 1 Thess 4:16 is the same resurrection as the one referenced in 1 Cor 15:52, as do a vast majority of Christians. I thought you disagreed about that and believed those were separate resurrections?

Douggg is set in concrete; still has the European Union ruling the world.

He is wrong about almost everything. I can't take him seriously. He is right that there won't be any resurrection of people with mortal bodies, though. That is nonsense.

No one has yet caused me to reconsider how the GT martyrs will be raised in mortal bodies and the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over, because that is what the Words of Revelation 20:4-5 indisputably say.

LOL. Where do you get that ridiculous idea? It doesn't say that in any way, shape or form. And no other scripture teaches that, either.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can't you read, why do I have to point out plainly stated scripture?
Revelation 20:6 says they can and will die again.

It says no such thing. Where are you seeing that? Show us.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. You are so dishonest. He did say how many resurrection events there are and he gave the order. Jesus was first. Next in order are "they that are Christ's at his coming.". So, there's two resurrection events, one of which was Christ's resurrection itself. The other is those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it. That is what Paul taught. But, you, like many people here, do not accept what Paul taught. The lack of respect for Paul's teachings that I see from many people on this forum is disgusting.

Your post is nothing more than an emotional amil outburst, not recognizing the 1Thessalonains4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event, nor the Revelation 20:4-6 great tribulation martyrs resurrection event, nor the resurrection to take place at the GWT.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your post is nothing more than an emotional amil outburst,

This is your new favorite, meaningless saying. And it's wrong. I used scripture to back up my view. Scripture that you are unable to refute. Scripture that you apparently have missing in your Bible. You have joined the growing list of people who do not respect and do not accept Paul's teachings. You clearly do not believe that Paul knew what he was talking about and you have decided that 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 cannot be used to support doctrine.

Tell me, Doug, how do you reconcile your 3 separate resurrection events belief with this passage:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus did not teach 3 separate mass resurrection events, but instead only taught one. Do you also not have John 5:28-29 in your Bible or do you just not care about what Jesus taught and would rather believe what you want to believe instead?

Which of your 3 resurrection events do you think Jesus was referring to here:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Douggg]

This is your new favorite, meaningless saying. And it's wrong. I used scripture to back up my view. Scripture that you are unable to refute. Scripture that you apparently have missing in your Bible. You have joined the growing list of people who do not respect and do not accept Paul's teachings. You clearly do not believe that Paul knew what he was talking about and you have decided that 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 cannot be used to support doctrine.

Tell me, Doug, how do you reconcile your 3 separate resurrection events belief with this passage:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus did not teach 3 separate mass resurrection events, but instead only taught one. Do you also not have John 5:28-29 in your Bible or do you just not care about what Jesus taught and would rather believe what you want to believe instead?

Which of your 3 resurrection events do you think Jesus was referring to here:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You are taking general statements and making them into a specific event.

There are 3 resurrection events involving Christians.

(1) the rapture/resurrection event (before the great tribulation) when Jesus comes in the air,

(2) as a martyred great tribulation saints (after the great tribulation is over) at Jesus's Second Coming,

then 1000 years

(3) at the GWT judgment,

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are taking general statements and making them into a specific event.

What happens to your hyperliteral approach to scripture when it comes to passages like John 5:28-29, Doug? You just throw it aside. There's no consistency in your approach. You just make any given verse or passage say what you want it to say. You say Revelation 20, contained within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture, should be taken literally, but John 5:28-29 should not. You clearly don't know how to differentiate between literal and symbolic text.

There are 3 resurrection events involving Christians.

(1) the rapture/resurrection event (before the great tribulation) when Jesus comes in the air,

(2) as a martyred great tribulation saints (after the great tribulation is over) at Jesus's Second Coming,

then 1000 years

(3) at the GWT judgment,

Nonsense. That does not line up with passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and John 5:28-29 at all. Jesus and Paul knew nothing of these 3 supposed resurrection events and only taught that there will be one. But, you think you know better than them.

Do you think I don't notice when you avoid answering my questions, Doug? I asked you...

Which of your 3 resurrection events do you think Jesus was referring to here:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Douggg]

Do you think I don't notice when you avoid answering my questions, Doug? I asked you...

Which of your 3 resurrection events do you think Jesus was referring to here:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I already answered that John 6:40 is a general statement. The specific resurrection events involving Christians are as the bible says....

(1) the rapture/resurrection event (before the great tribulation) when Jesus comes in the air,

(2) as a martyred great tribulation saints (after the great tribulation is over) at Jesus's Second Coming,

then 1000 years

(3) at the GWT judgment,

 

[Keraz]

I believe the resurrection of the dead in Christ referenced in 1 Thess 4:16 is the same resurrection as the one referenced in 1 Cor 15:52, as do a vast majority of Christians. I thought you disagreed about that and believed those were separate resurrections?

I believe those two Prophesies are 1000 years apart.
Proved by how Jesus does not judge individuals at His Return.

He is right that there won't be any resurrection of people with mortal bodies, though. That is nonsense.

Lazarus was the demonstration of a resurrection of a mortal body. He died again and will stand before God on His GWT, THEN to receive immortality. John 11:24
There is no mention of those GT martyrs receiving immortality when Jesus raises them at His Return.

Where do you get that ridiculous idea? It doesn't say that in any way, shape or form. And no other scripture teaches that, either.

My Bible plainly says; those GT martyrs will be brought back to life..... Rev 20:4
Rev 20:5-6 goes on to say that if they die a natural death, which is most probable, then their second death will not affect their eventual receiving of immortality.
Douggg is wrong to think that Rev 20:14b applies to them, Rev 20:6 specifically tells us it doesn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I already answered that John 6:40 is a general statement. The specific resurrection events involving Christians are as the bible says....

How convenient for you to say that. But, you're wrong. It specifically says believers will be resurrected "at the last day". So, again I ask, which of your 3 resurrections does John 6:40 refer to?

Saying John 6:40 is just a general statement is an unacceptable answer. Imagine if I said that about the verses you use to support your view and just left it at that? Would you find that to be acceptable? I'm sure you would not. So, answer the question in a way that actually makes sense instead of just acting as if the verse doesn't exist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe those two Prophesies are 1000 years apart.

There is no indication of such whatsoever. Paul did not teach 2 separate resurrections of the dead in Christ or else that would be seen in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where he gave the order of resurrections. But, such a thing is not indicated there at all.

It should be clear that 1 Corinthians 15:52 relates directly to 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 since both passages are part of the narrative that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 15. So, do you see 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 as relating directly to 1 Corinthians 15:52 or to 1 Thessalonians 4:16?

Proved by how Jesus does not judge individuals at His Return.

Yes, He most certainly does. Matthew 25:31-46 makes that clear. Surely, it's only individuals who inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God when He returns (Matt 25:34,46). Who else? Surely, it's only individuals who are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" when He returns (Matt 25:41). Who else? Only individuals will have to answer for how they treated the needy, as Matthew 25:31-46 describes. Who else?

Lazarus was the demonstration of a resurrection of a mortal body. He died again and will stand before God on His GWT, THEN to receive immortality. John 11:24
There is no mention of those GT martyrs receiving immortality when Jesus raises them at His Return.

Not every passage about the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead contains all the same details. That's why we need to interpret scripture with scripture and put the details all together. It's completely ludicrous to think that anyone would be resurrected with a mortal body in the future. Why? There would be absolutely not point to that whatsoever. And it's not taught anywhere in scripture that it will happen. You can't use Lazarus as proof of something that will happen in the future. That's ridiculous. You have no actual supporting scripture for your interpretation of Revelation 20. You interpret it in isolation and then force the rest of scripture to line up with that interpretation.

My Bible plainly says; those GT martyrs will be brought back to life..... Rev 20:4

Well, your Bible is wrong then. It wasn't written in English. Other translations say "they lived (Greek: tao) and reigned with Christ". To live (tao) means to be alive and to live. The Greek word does not mean to be brought back to life. That is what it says in relation to the rest of the dead where a different Greek word, anazao, is used in relation to them. That word does mean to be brought back to life.

Rev 20:5-6 goes on to say that if they die a natural death, which is most probable, then their second death will not affect their eventual receiving of immortality.

What? Where does it say that? Back up your claims for once. Show me where it says that. I don't see that at all.

Douggg is wrong to think that Rev 20:14b applies to them, Rev 20:6 specifically tells us it doesn't.

Applies to who? Be more specific about what you're talking about. Revelation 20:6 refers to believers who have part in the first resurrection. Revelation 20:14b refers to the rest of the dead and they are unbelievers because only unbelievers will experience the second death. So, Revelation 20:14b applies to the rest of the dead referenced in Revelation 20:5 who will experience the second death by being cast into the lake of fire. They are those whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev 20:15).

 

[Douggg]

How convenient for you to say that. But, you're wrong. It specifically says believers will be resurrected "at the last day". So, again I ask, which of your 3 resurrections does John 6:40 refer to?

Your question is presumptuous. I already responded to John 6:40 and the 3 resurrection events involving Christians.

 

[Keraz]

Applies to who? Be more specific about what you're talking about. Revelation 20:6 refers to believers who have part in the first resurrection. Revelation 20:14b refers to the rest of the dead and they are unbelievers because only unbelievers will experience the second death.

We are talking about the GT martyrs.
They get killed and their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. But of all the martyrs, Revelation 6:9-11, only those killed during the 42 month period of Satanic world control; will have their souls come back to earth with Jesus and He will return them to physical life.
There is nothing to support your idea that they, and all the Christian dead become immortal. Just a fanciful dream of the deceived and confuzed.

 

[rwb]

You are taking general statements and making them into a specific event.

There are 3 resurrection events involving Christians.

(1) the rapture/resurrection event (before the great tribulation) when Jesus comes in the air,

(2) as a martyred great tribulation saints (after the great tribulation is over) at Jesus's Second Coming,

then 1000 years

(3) at the GWT judgment,

Jo 5:28-29 is NOT the only passage proving ONE general resurrection. There are many verses telling us the dead IN CHRIST shall be resurrected on the last day. (see Jo 6 for one proof text) Of those who have died without Christ, they too according to Scripture shall be resurrected when the last trumpet sounds that time given mankind wherein, they might be saved shall be no longer (Rev 20:11-15; Rev 10:5-7).

What you don't seem to want to acknowledge is how there is an order to the general resurrection of ALL who have physically died. Paul writes the dead IN Christ rise first, then at the same hour that is coming, when the last trumpet sounds the last day when Christ shall come again, all who are still physically alive shall be raised up together with those in Christ who were resurrected first. After ALL who are both dead and alive in Christ are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, in the same hour that is coming on the last day when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has returned, they too shall be bodily resurrected to stand before the GWT judgment to give account before God according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.

 

[rwb]

My Bible plainly says; those GT martyrs will be brought back to life..... Rev 20:4

That's a poor translation of the verse. Why would those who died in Christ, already possessing everlasting life through Him need to be "brought back to life"? It is typically the newer modern translations of the Bible that translate this verse as though the life that Christ gives whosoever dies believing in Him don't have eternal life through Him, and therefore must be made alive again? Do you believe that we are identified by our outward flesh, or are we identified by our eternal spirit?

The following translations have it right, because they have translated the verse so that we might understand that when we have been made alive in Christ through His Spirit in us, our spirit is eternally alive forever and doesn't need to be made alive or brought back to life again because we, as spiritual body of Christ, NEVER DIE!

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (ASV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Bish) And I sawe thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was geuen vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and whiche had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their handes: and they lyued and raigned with Christe a thousand yeres.

Revelation 20:4 (DBY) And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Revelation 20:4 (GB) And I sawe seates: & they sate vpon them, & iudgement was giuen vnto them, & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnes of Iesus, and for the word of God, & which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or on their handes: and they liued, & reigned with Christ a thousand yeere.

Revelation 20:4 (KJ2000) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Tyn) And I sawe seattes and they sat apon them and iudgement was geven vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were behedded for the witnes of Iesu and for the worde of God: which had not worshypped the best nether his ymage nether had taken his marke vpon their forheddes or on their hondes: and they lyved and raygned with Christ a .M. yere:

Revelation 20:4 (WEB) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Wyc) And Y say seetis, and thei saten on hem, and doom was youun to hem. And the soulis of men biheedid for the witnessyng of Jhesu, and for the word of God, and hem that worschipiden not the beeste, nether the ymage of it, nethir token the carect of it in her forheedis, nethir in her hoondis. And thei lyueden, and regneden with Crist a thousynde yeeris.

Revelation 20:4 (YLT) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your question is presumptuous. I already responded to John 6:40 and the 3 resurrection events involving Christians.

So, you have decided to ignore John 5:28-29 and John 6:40 then. Got it.

 

[rwb]

My Bible plainly says; those GT martyrs will be brought back to life..... Rev 20:4
Rev 20:5-6 goes on to say that if they die a natural death, which is most probable, then their second death will not affect their eventual receiving of immortality.

Perhaps you might care to give an explanation for how those martyred saints of vs 4 who have lived and reigned with Christ "a thousand years", and the blessed and holy saints of vs 6 that shall reign with Christ a thousand years also? There is only mention of a/the thousand years, how can these saints both have lived, and shall live for the same a/the thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are talking about the GT martyrs.
They get killed and their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. But of all the martyrs, Revelation 6:9-11, only those killed during the 42 month period of Satanic world control; will have their souls come back to earth with Jesus and He will return them to physical life.
There is nothing to support your idea that they, and all the Christian dead become immortal. Just a fanciful dream of the deceived and confuzed.

Yes, everyone in the world is wrong about this except for you. No one agrees with you on this. Somehow, God decided to reveal the truth about this only to you.

Just keep ignoring passages like 1 Cor 15:22-23 and John 5:28-29 if you want, but I'm keeping them in my Bible and using them for doctrine.

 

[rwb]

That's a poor translation of the verse. Why would those who died in Christ, already possessing everlasting life through Him need to be "brought back to life"? It is typically the newer modern translations of the Bible that translate this verse as though the life that Christ gives whosoever dies believing in Him don't have eternal life through Him, and therefore must be made alive again? Do you believe that we are identified by our outward flesh, or are we identified by our eternal spirit?

The following translations have it right, because they have translated the verse so that we might understand that when we have been made alive in Christ through His Spirit in us, our spirit is eternally alive forever and doesn't need to be made alive or brought back to life again because we, as spiritual body of Christ, NEVER DIE!

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (ASV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Bish) And I sawe thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was geuen vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and whiche had not worshipped the beast neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their handes: and they lyued and raigned with Christe a thousand yeres.

Revelation 20:4 (DBY) And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years:

Revelation 20:4 (GB) And I sawe seates: & they sate vpon them, & iudgement was giuen vnto them, & I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnes of Iesus, and for the word of God, & which did not worship the beast, neither his image, neither had taken his marke vpon their foreheads, or on their handes: and they liued, & reigned with Christ a thousand yeere.

Revelation 20:4 (KJ2000) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Tyn) And I sawe seattes and they sat apon them and iudgement was geven vnto them: and I sawe the soules of them that were behedded for the witnes of Iesu and for the worde of God: which had not worshypped the best nether his ymage nether had taken his marke vpon their forheddes or on their hondes: and they lyved and raygned with Christ a .M. yere:

Revelation 20:4 (WEB) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 (Wyc) And Y say seetis, and thei saten on hem, and doom was youun to hem. And the soulis of men biheedid for the witnessyng of Jhesu, and for the word of God, and hem that worschipiden not the beeste, nether the ymage of it, nethir token the carect of it in her forheedis, nethir in her hoondis. And thei lyueden, and regneden with Crist a thousynde yeeris.

Revelation 20:4 (YLT) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;

I posted all of these translations of Rev 20:4 because these help us to understand how TIME given mankind whereby, we MUST be saved is what a/the thousand years symbolizes. Not ONE thousand literal years that shall be after Christ comes again. But TIME that runs from the first advent of Christ until the last trumpet begins to sound that THIS time has an expiration.

 

[Douggg]

Jo 5:28-29 is NOT the only passage proving ONE general resurrection. There are many verses telling us the dead IN CHRIST shall be resurrected on the last day. (see Jo 6 for one proof text) Of those who have died without Christ, they too according to Scripture shall be resurrected when the last trumpet sounds that time given mankind wherein, they might be saved shall be no longer (Rev 20:11-15; Rev 10:5-7).

What you don't seem to want to acknowledge is how there is an order to the general resurrection of ALL who have physically died. Paul writes the dead IN Christ rise first, then at the same hour that is coming, when the last trumpet sounds the last day when Christ shall come again, all who are still physically alive shall be raised up together with those in Christ who were resurrected first. After ALL who are both dead and alive in Christ are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, in the same hour that is coming on the last day when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has returned, they too shall be bodily resurrected to stand before the GWT judgment to give account before God according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.

For Christians only: Revelation 20:4-6, the resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs is 1000 years before the GWT judgment.

For Christians only; The rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 before the great tribulation and the wrath of God poured out during that time.

For the rest of the dead, Revelation 20:5 (persons who did not participate in either of the above): The resurrection for the GWT judgment