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keras you are making a statement, but not answering the question...
1 Thess 4:15-17, is a prophecy about the glorious Return.
keras, you did not answer the question....
Those people who will be gathered to Jesus at His Return are mortal humans. No change is Prophesied in 1 Thess 4, Matthew 24:31 or elsewhere. Only in your fevered imagination.
I am not referring to the people gathered in Matthew 24:31 by the angels that Jesus sends out.
No, we are not in Jesus's presence yet. Jesus is in heaven.
Wrong. The rest of the dead are unbelievers who are contrasted with the dead believers that John mentioned. And you are defying your normal literal approach here. How convenient. Jesus said that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time, not some of them. You have some being resurrected one time and some another time, which blatantly contradicts what Jesus said will happen.
How am I ignoring that? I never said otherwise. Yes, Paul was focused only on believers there. So? What you ignore is that 1 Thess 5:2-3 happens on that same day, so he did make a reference to what will happen to living unbelievers on that day, also. He didn't mention that dead unbelievers will be resurrected on that same day, but Jesus did say all of the dead will be resurrected on the same day. Not all of the details about His second coming are given in every passage about His second coming. That shouldn't be hard to understand.
I already did. And I mean it 100%. That is exactly what you do. You do not accept that Jesus said that ALL of the dead will be resurrected at the same time. You do not accept that He taught that all people will be judged at the same time at His coming at the end of the age (Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46)? You do not accept that no flesh and blood mortals can inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50). You have lots of mortals inheriting the kingdom of God on earth when Christ returns. On and on it goes. What else can I conclude then except that you cherry pick scripture while ignoring all these scriptures that your doctrine contradicts?
LOL. It doesn't help your case to make stupid comments like this. I believe what I do because of my own studies of scripture. I back up my views with scripture. Scripture that contradicts your doctrine. Scripture that you have come up with ridiculous interpretations of, including John 5:28-29.
What happened to those who were not in the ark? They were all killed. Jesus said "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (Matt 24:35-39). All unbelievers will be killed when He comes as well. All believers will be changed and have immortal bodies. This does not leave any mortal survivors on the earth after Jesus comes to experience an imaginary tribulation period taking place after the rapture nor for an imaginary earthly millennial kingdom taking place after that.
For you to think this resurrection of the dead in Christ...
So, do you believe mortal humans will inherit the kingdom of God at that time then? Is that your understanding of what Jesus said here:
No, it's not described in that passage. So what? Not every passage that refers to the second coming contains every detail related to it. Do you understand that? In Matthew 25:31-46 it portrays all people being judged with those who are saved inheriting "life eternal" in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world while the unsaved are cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41) which is obviously a reference to the lake of fire that all whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into. That places the timing of Revelation 20:15, which is the same event as Matthew 25:41, at the second coming of Christ and not 1,000+ years later.
You are SKIPPING taking the time to address that all unbelievers were killed by the flood and that Jesus said it will be like that when He comes. Do you believe that all unbelievers will be killed after Jesus comes and believers are raptured? If not, then you are not accepting what Jesus taught.
Here we go with this nonsense again. No, Jesus said the flood came the same day Noah entered the ark (Matthew 24:38-39, Luke 17:27). Why do you not accept what Jesus said?
Yes, exactly. And they were all destroyed. Jesus said it will be like that when He comes. So, regardless of your understanding of the tribulation/wrath that occurs at that point, we know that no unbeliever will survive it, which refutes premillennialism.
LOL. You can't be serious with this. Equating seven days with seven years for no good reason. You are obviously just making scripture say what you want it to say. And how convenient for you to ignore that Jesus also compared the day Lot went out of Sodom to the day He returns as well. Why can't we conclude that the rapture will occur on the same day Jesus returns based on that? Or, with the way you interpret things, I guess we'd have to conclude that the rapture will occur in the same year that Jesus returns based on what He said about what happened on the day Lot went out of Sodom?
Total nonsense. Nowhere does scripture compare what happened in Noah's day to what will happen in the future the way you're doing here?
Nonsense! This is a doctrine of demons. Now is the time for salvation (2 Corinthians 6:2)! This horrible pretrib doctrine says people will get another chance to repent when Jesus comes! That is a lie! It gives people false hope and can influence to put off repenting of their sins and putting their faith in Christ for another day. That's a horrible lie from the pit of hell!
All Christians are in Christ and no Christian has ever or will ever experience God's wrath. Your "in Christ" and "in Jesus" thing is utter nonsense and completely unbiblical. Jesus said "he who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30). No one "in Christ" or "in Jesus" is against Him. All believers are with Him. Those who are against Him will be destoryed when He comes.
Right. And the rest will be destroyed just as was the case in Noah's day. As Peter said in 2 Peter 3:6-7, "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire".
The rapture/resurrection event, exclusively for Christians, in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is separate from the GWT judgement.
Nonsense. Can you show me this order of resurrections that you believe in here in this passage where Paul gave the order of resurrections?
So, you do agree that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood. How do you figure that any mortals will populate the earth after that for a thousand years then? No one will repent after Jesus comes. That's a lie from hell. It will be too late at that point. Now is the time of salvation! (2 Cor 6:2).
WRONG! That is insane to think people stopped their normal activities, including eating and drinking (!!!) 7 days before the flood came. Do you not know that people cannot survive without water for more than 3 or 4 days? They all would have died even before the flood came if what you're saying was true. So, your view can't be taken seriously. You don't accept what Jesus taught.
Yes, He did. He indicated that people stopped their normal activities the day Noah entered the ark and they certainly wouldn't have done that just because of Noah going on to the ark alone. They only would have done that once they saw that the flood was happening just as he said it would.
I don't believe your false interpretations of scripture. Jesus obviously didn't interpret it that way and I trust what Jesus taught. You should, too, instead of acting like you understand Genesis 7 better than He did.
You will always ignore what you know you can't refute. Clearly, Noah did not go on the ark and close the door until it was time for the flood to start. Why would he have gone on the ark seven days before that? There would've been no point to that. You are misinterpreting that scripture and not accepting how Jesus interpreted it.
They are the same people. Both verses describe the Day Jesus Returns. Proved by v16: the Lord Himself will descend from heaven......
I have given the proof that those two Prophesies are not fulfilled at the same time. There will be a thousand years between them.
There is no scripture which would indicate that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is not fulfilled at the same time as 1 Cor 15:50-56. Paul made it clear that ALL of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:22-23). You order of resurrections does not match his that he gave in 1 Cor 15:22-23. I will side with Paul over you every time.
There is scripture which says that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus returns (1 Cor 15:22-23) and Jesus Himself said that an hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29). So, based on those scriptures, it has to be the case that all dead non-Christians will be resurrected in the same hour that all dead Christians are resurrected. And Revelation 20 needs to be interpreted accordingly instead of changing those scriptures to match your understanding of Revelation 20.
LOL. You did it again. I agree that the resurrection of the dead will happen after Jesus has reigned for a thousand years. When will you ever understand that we agree on that? We don't disagree about that. I disagree with you that the thousand years is literal and that it occurs after Jesus returns. And I disagree with your claim that some will be resurrected with mortal bodies when Jesus returns. That is one of the most ridiculous of all the ridiculous things that you believe. Scripture definitely never teaches such a thing.
Except that it will. But, you're a broken record. You say exactly the same thing over and over again, so let's just agree to disagree instead of repeating the exact same things we've already said before, as you did here.
Why not? It refers to the resurrection of dead believers in verse 52. Won't they be resurrected first before appearing for the judgment? I would think so. Why would they not be resurrected until after the judgment is over, if that's what you believe?
LOL! You are very delusional. That passage proves Amil and nails the coffin on Premil. You falsely have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God at that point, but Paul said this:
