Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Douggg]

Charts are a great tool for math, statistics, historical timelines and such forth.

But graphs are also easily manipulated to produce a depiction of truth that is actually a falsehood.
Corrupt politicians use it all the time to 'trick' people into believing what their natural eyes are seeing.

You @Douggg, have been tricked into believing a falsehood that cannot be found in scripture.

As with all deceived 'christians', they believe what they are fed by their pastors, who have been
taught by men who have elevated themselves in pride against the Holy Spirit.

the Holy Spirit has a TRUTH challenge for you @Douggg = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

What specific verse in 1 Thess 4:13-18 declares the Rapture?

ONLY post the verse which declares the Rapture.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[David in NJ]

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Good Morning my Brother in Christ

Thank You for the accurate and TRUE scripture verse that proclaims the Coming Rapture of the "alive and remaining Saints".

2nd Question: In what Order does the "word of the LORD" place this in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

Clarification to this 2nd question:
the verse you CORRECTLY/TRUTH posted here is verse 17
"By the word of the LORD", is this placed before or AFTER the resurrection as declared in verse 16?

Is it:
a.) Before
b.) After

Thank you @Douggg for responding

 

[David in NJ]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 This is a word from the Lord; those of His people who are still alive when the Lord comes, will have no advantage over those who have died.
...when Gods trumpet sounds and Jesus descends from heaven, firstly the Christian dead will rise, then we who are still alive will join them.
Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. [on the earth]

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
His holy ones: The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.

Many verses show that Christianity involves active effort, at the very least “watch and pray always”.

Many of the Bible’s greatest prophecies culminate in the Return of Jesus. This will be the most wonderful event that the world has seen, but what precedes it will be very different – terrible disasters and tribulations will engulf every society. It will take great trust and faith in Gods power to hold steady until the end.

Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.
Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear.... the son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He shall send His angels with the sound of the great trumpet, and they shall gather His faithful people from heaven, [the souls of the martyrs] and the four corners of the earth. [every person who kept their trust in God]

Daniel 7:27 The kingly power and sovereignty of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their power will last forever and every realm will serve and obey them.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged

Zechariah 14:4-5 On that Day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.....the Lord will appear, attended by all His holy ones.
His holy ones: The angel armies of heaven; Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Scripture reads clearly – the so called rapture is actually just a gathering, which will occur when Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The doctrine that His “church” people are simply waiting to be whisked away into heaven tends to produce a carefree and careless attitude in those awaiting Christ’s Return. Tragically, millions are now being set up to ‘simply believe in Jesus and don’t worry about anything else”. This is short-sighted, irresponsible thinking.

92% truth

You are missing an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TRUTH in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Please review and let me know what the missing 8% of Truth is - Thank You

Clue: 8 is the number of 'New Beginnings' in the Holy Scriptures

 

[David in NJ]

@Keraz

Post 203 has been edited - please review - thank you

 

[Keraz]

Metaphors are being used in that verse.

1. the woman
2. the two wings of a great eagle
4.. the wilderness
5. the serpent

1/ The Christian Church
2/ the means for the faithful Christians to the taken to safety.
3/ the place of safety.
4/ The devil; Satan.

My question is why the wilderness in that verse not the mountains in Israel in Matthew 24:15-21 ?

It must be to the place of assembly. where they will depart from. Something we will know better at the time.

 

[Keraz]

92% truth

You are missing an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT TRUTH in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

Please review and let me know what the missing 8% of Truth is - Thank You

Clue: 8 is the number of 'New Beginnings' in the Holy Scriptures

You need to spell it out for me.
I can guess that you wrongly believe that means we go up to heaven, via the clouds? A belief which I strongly reject, proved by Zech 14:4, Jerusalem is where Jesus will be.

 

[David in NJ]

You need to spell it out for me.
I can guess that you wrongly believe that means we go up to heaven, via the clouds? A belief which I strongly reject, proved by Zech 14:4, Jerusalem is where Jesus will be.

Well, i enjoy your posts and hoping for the Holy Spirit to guide us in scripture together to 'fine tune' the Harmony of scripture in our hearts.

To grant your request is easy, for the Apostle Paul, guided by the Holy Spirit spelled it out for everyone!!!

1 Corinthians chapter 15

Do you believe that this is a more detailed accounting (spelled out for us) of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18???

Shalom

 

[Keraz]

1 Corinthians chapter 15

Do you believe that this is a more detailed accounting (spelled out for us) of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18???

No, I do not.
1 Thess 4:15-17, is a Prophecy pertaining to the glorious Return of Jesus. There is no body change then for anyone.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a Prophecy pertaining to the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

I have posted this scriptural truth here and elsewhere, many times. It gets ignored as it contradicts peoples favourite beliefs.
Please show us how you can place 1 Cor 15:50-56 at the Return, or admit your error.

 

[David in NJ]

No, I do not.
1 Thess 4:15-17, is a Prophecy pertaining to the glorious Return of Jesus. There is no body change then for anyone.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a Prophecy pertaining to the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

I have posted this scriptural truth here and elsewhere, many times. It gets ignored as it contradicts peoples favourite beliefs.
Please show us how you can place 1 Cor 15:50-56 at the Return, or admit your error.

Deuteronomy 19:15 - "at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

Matthew 18:16 - "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1 - “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Do you agree or disagree with this method of evaluation and discovery???

 

[Keraz]

Deuteronomy 19:15 - "at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

Matthew 18:16 - "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1 - “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Do you agree or disagree with this method of evaluation and discovery???

Why must you reply like this?
I can only think you are incapable of answering the fact of those two scriptures being incompatible with each other.

That there will be no immortal people on earth during the Milennium, is proved elsewhere. Isaiah 65:20, +

 

[David in NJ]

Why must you reply like this?
I can only think you are incapable of answering the fact of those two scriptures being incompatible with each other.

That there will be no immortal people on earth during the Milennium, is proved elsewhere. Isaiah 65:20, +

Why must you reply like this?

It is God's Commandment for us.

Deuteronomy 19:15 - "at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

Matthew 18:16 - "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1 - “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Agree or Disagree?

 

[Keraz]

It is God's Commandment for us.

Deuteronomy 19:15 - "at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

Matthew 18:16 - "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."

2 Corinthians 13:1 - “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Agree or Disagree?

I agree with the above rule.
But what does it have to do with the belief of 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 being a Prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; after the Millennium?
A belief I hold to and I prove to be correct by how it will only be then, that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

You and many other Christians do think it will happen when Jesus Returns and people will be made immortal then. Maybe I don't have another witness to support me. but any belief which contradicts plainly stated scripture, is wrong. Gods Word is my Witness.

As well as the fact of there being no actual mention of people receiving immortality when Jesus Returns*, such as idea is illogical, as having immortal people living alongside mortals on earth in the Millennium, is impossible.

* Revelation 20:4-6 tells us that the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, will be brought back to life by Jesus at His Return. As they can and will die a second death, 1 Cor 15:50-56 cannot apply to them.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20:4-6 tells us that the martyrs killed during the Great Trib, will be brought back to life by Jesus at His Return. As they can and will die again, 1 Cor 15:50-56 cannot apply to them.

keras, where in the text of Revelation 20:4-6 does it say that the great tribulation martyrs will die again ?

 

[Keraz]

keras, where in the text of Revelation 20:4-6 does it say that the great tribulation martyrs will die again ?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in this first resurrection! Over them their second death has no power......REBible
On such, the second death has no power. KJV

Those martyrs are not raised to immortality, as clearly stated: brought back to life, or they lived again....

Their second death, will not affect their eventual transformation into an immortal being. At the GWT Judgment, along with all whose names are fond in the Book of Life.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in this first resurrection! Over them their second death has no power......REBible
On such, the second death has no power. KJV

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. kjv

The REB bible adds "their" to the text, to say "Over them their second death has no power" giving the impression that they will die again.

However, the second death is being cast into the lake of fire. So the second death is not meaning dying again in the case of the brought back to life martyred great tribulation saints. But the second death refers to being cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. kjv

The REB bible adds "their" to the text, to say "Over them their second death has no power" giving the impression that they will die again.

However, the second death is being cast into the lake of fire. So the second death is not meaning dying again in the case of the brought back to life martyred great tribulation saints. But the second death refers to being cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sorry, I did misspell; .....over them the second death has no power. REB
Means the same thing - they cannot be thrown into the Lake of Fire. After they die again, as mortal people do.

The point of your argument, as I see it, is for those martyrs to receive 'glorified bodies', and immortality when Jesus Returns. You want that to happen so you can get raptured to heaven yourself.
Revelation 20 just does not say anyone gets immortality in the Millennium; only at the GWT Judgment. Nowhere is it said that those gathered when Jesus Returns; Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:16-17, will become immortal. Or even more incredible: glorified bodies'.

These facts blow apart any notions of a 'rapture to heaven'. That idea is a Satanic lie and is never Prophesied to happen.
This is why your 'charts' are treated like garbage, they manage to offend everyone, we all see errors in them, so we just scroll over them all.

 

[Douggg]

The point of your argument, as I see it, is for those martyrs to receive 'glorified bodies', and immortality when Jesus Returns.

Yes, that is my position.

You want that to happen so you can get raptured to heaven yourself.

No that is not my basis for the rapture/resurrection.

Revelation 20 just does not say anyone gets immortality in the Millennium; only at the GWT Judgment.

keras, actually in the text of Revelation 20:11-15 does not say anything about anyone receiving immortality in those verses. It is an assumption.

The assumption is because them whose name are not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of life - then those whose name are found written the book of life - will receive immortal, incorruptible bodies at that time.

The raptured/resurrected event persons will not appear before the GWT Judgment. Neither will the resurrected great tribulation saints.

 

[Keraz]

Yes, that is my position.

Not supported by scripture.

No that is not my basis for the rapture/resurrection.

A rapture/resurrection has no basis whatever. Such a thing is pure fable.

actually in the text of Revelation 20:11-15 does not say anything about anyone receiving immortality in those verses. It is an assumption.

Those whose names are found in the Book of Life; receive Life Eternal. Proved by Revelation 21:1-2
God gets what He wanted out of the whole exercise of Creation. A people who have freely chosen to believe in Him and keep His Commandments. They will live in the new Jerusalem forever. Revelation 21:1-27 & Rev 22:1-5

 

[ewq1938]

The point of your argument, as I see it, is for those martyrs to receive 'glorified bodies', and immortality when Jesus Returns.

That is what the bible says though.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Just as many scriptures show, immortality comes at the second coming (the last trump) and when the living are also changed into immortals.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The word "incorruption" here is the same exact word "immortality" in 1Co 15:53 which proves when the saved dead resurrect, they are immortal.


The dead rise at the second coming and that is also when immortality takes place.


Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

This is a second coming reference.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And as all the previous scriptures affirm, the bodies of the righteous will be changed to be like His body and that is when immortality is received.

 

[Keraz]

That is what the bible says though.

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Just as many scriptures show, immortality comes at the second coming (the last trump) and when the living are also changed into immortals.

Typical wild assumption!
Your and every other verse which Prophesies immortality, do not say when immortality will come.
We know that from Revelation 20:11-15; when the Book of Life is opened; at the end of Gods decreed 7000 years allotted to physical mankind.

The glorious Return of Jesus in not at the Last Trump. That comes when all the dead are raised, to stand before God in Judgment.
Rev 20:11-15

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

When is all things subdued to Himself?
1 Cor 15:24.......when Jesus hands the Kingdom back to God, AFTER He has reigned for a thousand years.

Do not be so thick, as to think that Jesus Returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and then immediately turns around and hands the Kingdom back to God the Father.