Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Spiritual Israelite]

Think about it. The church in heaven is not in need of protection. The verse obviously applied to earth.

No, you think about it. If a Christian is martyred, does that mean the gates of hell prevailed against that person? Absolutely not! Yet, that is how you are thinking of the gates of hell prevailing against the church. As if martyrdom would have anything to do with prevailing against the church when you know the martyrdom of Christians results in them then going to heaven. The gates of hell certainly do not prevail against Christians by merely killing them, knowing that they then go to heaven!

False. Once the power of a holy people is scattered and they cannot do what they were set up to do, preach the good news to mankind, then the world prevails against them.

Nonsense. Again, sending a Christian to heaven by killing them does not result in the gates of hell prevailing. You are thinking of all this in entirely the wrong way.

No one said it was. The church is not 'a believer'.

That is ignoring the power and spirit of the promise and spiritualizing it away. Unbelief, in other words.

Nonsense. Your arguments are weak and make no sense. You have completely the wrong idea of what it means for the gates of hell to prevail against the church. That has nothing to do with the persecution of the church. They can kill our bodies, but not our souls.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

? Where is the gathering together in the air of both dead and alive believers? Seriously?

Do you seriously think I was questioning that? LOL! No, I'm saying where is it taught that we would then be taken to heaven after meeting Him in the air? That isn't taught anywhere in scripture. If that was going to happen, why wouldn't we just be caught up straight to heaven? What is the point of meeting Him in the air in that case?

The church will never be martyred if the promise is true. Millions might be. However the forces of hell are not given permission to overcome the church ever. Period. Bank on it.

I don't believe that literally the entire church will be martyred, but my point is that you have the wrong understanding of what it means for the gates of hell to prevail against the church. It certainly has nothing to do with killing our bodies with ours souls then going to heaven. You can't say the gates of hell prevail against a believers by merely killing his or her body. The gates of hell can't prevail against our souls.

Whatever way you want to imagine it, not going to happen. God says so. Not the body as a whole, sorry.

Total strawman and this was already addressed several times. Debate honestly if you feel compelled to post at all.

I am. You just aren't prepared to defend your false doctrine. That is obvious. Don't try to blame me for that.

If we are gone, praytell how would anyone prevail over us in heaven?

The church doesn't need to be taken off of the earth in order to prevent the gates of hell to prevail against it. That is what you believe and that is total nonsense.

 

[dad]

Are you saying that the term "saints" can't be used to refer to those who are in the church? If so, that is clearly false.

Did I say that? No. However in the context of prophesy, when the church is gone gone gone, obviously any believers or saints here will not be the church. Another foolish and dishonest strawman argument.

LOL. Ridiculous. You're trying to say that those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are not in the church? Ludicrous.

Yes! The church will be where God is, the bible says. Not here. Maybe that is what you do not believe? That could be the crux of your problem.

Where He will be at that point is in the air. It doesn't say where we go from there.

Yes it sure does. Jesus in fact cleared that up. We will go to be with Him in the place He prepared for us. When? When He returns in the air for us. What you are a proponent of the yo yo theory where people go up in the air when Jesus returns to the earth and zip right back down? Ha
We are here for a purpose.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

In the tribulation, there are angels and special protected witnesses preaching, not the church!

It indicates that He proceeds to destroy His enemies right after that and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

No you made that up wholesale. The verse actually says this

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Who will not escape? The people on the earth after the day comes when we are taken away of course. That does not mean they all die either! Untold multitudes will be saved. Including all of what will be left of Israel (remnant)

If we were to be taken to heaven after that, why wouldn't we just be taken straight to heaven? What would be the point of meeting Him in the air in that case?

Your whole scenario was just destroyed, so the question rings hollow and is foolishness. We are already in heaven at the point when they shall not escape. And that is not the final judgment or Jesus returning TO the earth either.

 

[dad]

No, you think about it. If a Christian is martyred, does that mean the gates of hell prevailed against that person?

Totally beside the point and absolutely irrelevant. What happens to a PERSON is not being discussed here. The church is not a person.

Yet, that is how you are thinking of the gates of hell prevailing against the church. As if martyrdom would have anything to do with prevailing against the church when you know the martyrdom of Christians results in them then going to heaven.

Pay attention it was told you more than once already that that is a strawman argument. Martyrs have ZERO to do with the church as a whole being broken and defeated totally.

Again, sending a Christian to heaven by killing them does not result in the gates of hell prevailing. You are thinking of all this in entirely the wrong way.

Again debate honestly. Hopefully you will not raise that foolish and dishonest canard again here.

You have completely the wrong idea of what it means for the gates of hell to prevail against the church. That has nothing to do with the persecution of the church. They can kill our bodies, but not our souls.

There you go again in a blatant and total lack of understanding of what is even being discussed here. Hopefully we will not hear that tripe again. Tks

 

[Marty fox]

No. That could not fit. Being persecuted is something Jesus said would happen. Having the church wiped out as a body and unable to witness or live is NOT.

I didn't say that the church would be wiped out and unable to witness because that won't happen

 

[dad]

Do you seriously think I was questioning that? LOL! No, I'm saying where is it taught that we would then be taken to heaven after meeting Him in the air?

I already answered. Jesus said He prepared a place for us and that we will be where He is.

That isn't taught anywhere in scripture. If that was going to happen, why wouldn't we just be caught up straight to heaven? What is the point of meeting Him in the air in that case?

The point of Him taking the church away from the earth is similar to a country taking it's diplomats out before a war. Once He returns for us, the world will not escape and the clock is ticking in that last several years. There may be many other reasons as well, God knows.

I don't believe that literally the entire church will be martyred, but my point is that you have the wrong understanding of what it means for the gates of hell to prevail against the church. It certainly has nothing to do with killing our bodies with ours souls then going to heaven. You can't say the gates of hell prevail against a believers by merely killing his or her body. The gates of hell can't prevail against our souls.

Your little idea of what the church is on earth for seems lobotomized at best. Once the devil is allowed to have the power to defeat believers and do all the things prophesy says, there can be no real church here. Not preaching or meeting or living etc is not conducive to the reason d'aitre of the church here on earth. No one is talking in any way about our souls here. The Rapture involves bodies as well. Why do you think the dead raise up and the living as well?

The church doesn't need to be taken off of the earth in order to prevent the gates of hell to prevail against it. That is what you believe and that is total nonsense.

Says you. However since Jesus is gathering all of us up in the air before the world has the boom lowered on it, your opinion is overruled.

 

[dad]

I didn't say that the church would be wiped out and unable to witness because that won't happen

The people for the most part in the tribulation will be unable to witness or buy or sell or meet or preach the gospel etc etc. *except the 2 witnesses and the 144,000) Daniel even makes it clear the power of holy people will be scatted then. If believers at that time could preach the gospel freely or at all, why would God have to send angels to do it, as well as seal some special preachers??
You are correct, the church will not be unable or able to do anything here because we are gone baby gone at that time.

 

[Marty fox]

No, you think about it. If a Christian is martyred, does that mean the gates of hell prevailed against that person? Absolutely not! Yet, that is how you are thinking of the gates of hell prevailing against the church. As if martyrdom would have anything to do with prevailing against the church when you know the martyrdom of Christians results in them then going to heaven. The gates of hell certainly do not prevail against Christians by merely killing them, knowing that they then go to heaven!


Nonsense. Again, sending a Christian to heaven by killing them does not result in the gates of hell prevailing. You are thinking of all this in entirely the wrong way.


Nonsense. Your arguments are weak and make no sense. You have completely the wrong idea of what it means for the gates of hell to prevail against the church. That has nothing to do with the persecution of the church. They can kill our bodies, but not our souls.

Amen Matthew 24
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did I say that? No. However in the context of prophesy, when the church is gone gone gone, obviously any believers or saints here will not be the church. Another foolish and dishonest strawman argument.

LOL. What is the basis for you saying that those called "saints" in Revelation 13:7 can't be the church then? There is no basis for that since saints are always part of the church. Your argument is the one that is foolish and my argument addresses it directly. You are coming up with total nonsense in this thread and acting like it has any credibility. It has none.

Yes! The church will be where God is, the bible says. Not here. Maybe that is what you do not believe? That could be the crux of your problem.

We will meet Jesus in the air, so we will be where He is at that point. Nowhere does it say we then go to heaven at that point.

Yes it sure does. Jesus in fact cleared that up. We will go to be with Him in the place He prepared for us. When? When He returns in the air for us. What you are a proponent of the yo yo theory where people go up in the air when Jesus returns to the earth and zip right back down? Ha
We are here for a purpose.

LOL. You are so ignorant. Your theory is a yo yo theory as well as you have Jesus descending from heaven only go to return back there right aftwards. LOL. What a hypocritical thing for you to criticize someone else of having a yo yo theory. But, I don't even believe we are brought to the earth after that, either.

I am not a premillennialist, so I don't have Him bringing the church down to earth at that point. What scripture teaches is that Jesus will destroy all of His enemies after we are caught up to Him. Scripture teaches that He will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night at which point we will be caught up to Him and then He will send "sudden destruction" down upon His enemies from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). The heavens and earth will be burned up at that point which is why they will not escape (2 Peter 3:10-12. After that, the judgment takes place as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.

Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

In the tribulation, there are angels and special protected witnesses preaching, not the church!

LOL. Such nonsense. So, the church would be witnessing all that time but suddenly God would decide the church can't witness for Him anymore? LOL. Where do you come up with this nonsense? You can't be taken seriously.

No you made that up wholesale. The verse actually says this

1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Who will not escape? The people on the earth after the day comes when we are taken away of course. That does not mean they all die either! Untold multitudes will be saved. Including all of what will be left of Israel (remnant)

LOL. Such nonsense. Remember, this is related direclty to the day when Jesus returns like a thief in the night. Where does Paul indicate that any of them will escape? You are making that up. Peter wrote about the same thing. He gave more detail and showed what will be causing that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur when the day of the Lord arrives like at thief in the night. Who could escape fire coming down on the entire earth? No mortals could, obviously.

Your whole scenario was just destroyed, so the question rings hollow and is foolishness. We are already in heaven at the point when they shall not escape. And that is not the final judgment or Jesus returning TO the earth either.

Your weak arguments have already been destroyed beyond recognition. You can't be taken seriously with all the nonsense you are putting out there in this thread.

 

[Marty fox]

The people for the most part in the tribulation will be unable to witness or buy or sell or meet or preach the gospel etc etc. *except the 2 witnesses and the 144,000) Daniel even makes it clear the power of holy people will be scatted then. If believers at that time could preach the gospel freely or at all, why would God have to send angels to do it, as well as seal some special preachers??
You are correct, the church will not be unable or able to do anything here because we are gone baby gone at that time.

I have a total different understanding of what you say here but how did the persecuted church by apostate Israel make out?

They did amazing and God used the persecution to spread the church out to the whole known earth in Paul's time with great success.

Your argument is based on a view that isn't proven and omits a pretribulation rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Totally beside the point and absolutely irrelevant. What happens to a PERSON is not being discussed here. The church is not a person.

I'm illustrating how your understanding of the gates of hell prevailing is flawed. If it can't even prevail against one Christian by way of killing that person, then you should see that it can't prevail against the church itself even if it killed all believers in the church because the gates of hell can't destroy our souls.

Pay attention it was told you more than once already that that is a strawman argument. Martyrs have ZERO to do with the church as a whole being broken and defeated totally.

It's not a strawman argument. It illustrates the weakness of your argument. You just don't want to admit it. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church by merely destroying the bodies of those in the church, but not their souls. Why can't you acknowledge that fact?

Again debate honestly. Hopefully you will not raise that foolish and dishonest canard again here.

I am debating honestly. You are just obviously completely unprepared to defend your doctrine.

There you go again in a blatant and total lack of understanding of what is even being discussed here. Hopefully we will not hear that tripe again. Tks

I understand it better than you do. You can't even comprehend how physical martyrdom has nothing to do iwth the gates of hell prevailing against the church. If the entire church was lead to fall away from the faith, then you could say that the gates of hell have prevailed against it, but that isn't going to happen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I already answered. Jesus said He prepared a place for us and that we will be where He is.

Yes, and I agree. What you don't understand is He is taking that place to us. We will meet Him in the air and will be forever with the Lord after that. He will destroy His enemies at that time and then the judgment will take place in eternity. We will be with Him forever in the new heavens and new earth.

The point of Him taking the church away from the earth is similar to a country taking it's diplomats out before a war. Once He returns for us, the world will not escape and the clock is ticking in that last several years. There may be many other reasons as well, God knows.

God knows why you believe in this ridiculous pre-trib rapture doctrine that was invented in the 1800s. You don't even know why it would happen. There's no reason for us to be taken off of the earth at any point until what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 happens.

Your little idea of what the church is on earth for seems lobotomized at best. Once the devil is allowed to have the power to defeat believers and do all the things prophesy says, there can be no real church here.

This is your problem. You think the devil defeats believers by killing their bodies. What a joke! No, he does not! He can't kill our souls! He does he defeat us by killing our bodies and sending our souls to heaven? LOL.

Not preaching or meeting or living etc is not conducive to the reason d'aitre of the church here on earth. No one is talking in any way about our souls here.

Why not? Why do you act as if we don't even have souls? You try to say that believers are defeated if they are killed for their faith. Hardly!

The Rapture involves bodies as well. Why do you think the dead raise up and the living as well?

I didn't say otherwise.

Says you. However since Jesus is gathering all of us up in the air before the world has the boom lowered on it, your opinion is overruled.

Your weak arguments don't overrule anything.

 

[dad]

LOL. What is the basis for you saying that those called "saints" in Revelation 13:7 can't be the church then?

Read the OP. The church cannot be destroyed and scattered and totally killed etc etc. The saints after we leave can be to a large extent as the devil has power over the world at that time.

There is no basis for that since saints are always part of the church.

No. When the church is gone the saints are not part of the church. The saints in the old testament like Moses etc etc etc are not part of it either. Your argument is defeated.

We will meet Jesus in the air, so we will be where He is at that point. Nowhere does it say we then go to heaven at that point.

It says so shall we ever be with the Lord. We know that we will be with Him where He is. He is in heaven and will be until the end of the tribulation.

Your theory is a yo yo theory as well as you have Jesus descending from heaven only go to return back there right aftwards. LOL.

False. We have several years and a marriage supper and lots of things happening in that time. Nothing like some yo yo theory foolishness where Jesus stops in a cloud on His way to the mount of Olives and raises up all believers to meet Him there. Then immediately they all fly back down to earth!!! What screaming lunacy.

But, I don't even believe we are brought to the earth after that, either.

Read Jude sometime then. He returns with His saints. Enoch knew that much some 5000 years ago or so!

I am not a premillennialist, so I don't have Him bringing the church down to earth at that point. What scripture teaches is that Jesus will destroy all of His enemies after we are caught up to Him.

None. Notice the wicked are not all destroyed in the tribulation?? What a false argument and strawman.

Scripture teaches that He will come unexpectedly like a thief in the night at which point we will be caught up to Him and then He will send "sudden destruction" down upon His enemies from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

Have you never read about the tribulation? Lots of destruction then. Maybe even a limited nuclear war! In any case, there are wars and a dictatorship worldwide and a third of mankind killed early on, with much more killed later on etc etc. Of course sudden destruction comes when we leave! Not total destruction though of course.

The heavens and earth will be burned up at that point which is why they will not escape (2 Peter 3:10-12. After that, the judgment takes place as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.

Absurd. That is not till over 1000 years later

LOL. Such nonsense. So, the church would be witnessing all that time but suddenly God would decide the church can't witness for Him anymore? LOL. Where do you come up with this nonsense? You can't be taken seriously.

How can we witness is we are off the planet? The people left on earth will have a hard time witnessing of course. Being a believer will carry a death sentence. The man of sin will be given power over all kindreds for a short time.

Remember, this is related direclty to the day when Jesus returns like a thief in the night. Where does Paul indicate that any of them will escape?

Who? Escape what? You seem to imagine some total death or something you made up. They shall not escape the tribulation! Nor a lot of destruction, some of which probably comes at the time He takes us away.

Peter wrote about the same thing. He gave more detail and showed what will be causing that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

False. That is not the Rapture by any stretch of the imagination. The day of the Lord includes the millennium and when that is over the world is destroyed. Not before.

No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur when the day of the Lord arrives like at thief in the night. Who could escape fire coming down on the entire earth? No mortals could, obviously.

Here you openly show how you conflated the start of the tribulation with the end of the 1000 years. Thanks for that.

 

[dad]

I have a total different understanding of what you say here but how did the persecuted church by apostate Israel make out?

Who cares? The church is not one group of people in one city or town. That sort of thing is what we call persecution.

 

[dad]

I'm illustrating how your understanding of the gates of hell prevailing is flawed. If it can't even prevail against one Christian by way of killing that person, then you should see that it can't prevail against the church itself even if it killed all believers in the church because the gates of hell can't destroy our souls.

What happens to some person is not relevant to the issue of the church being protected from being overcome. Nor can we limit the scope of what hell means to death! There is an underworld that has real beings and powers that really would like to kill us all and stop us from preaching if they were allowed. They are not allowed. Not now. That power is not given to them now.

The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church by merely destroying the bodies of those in the church, but not their souls. Why can't you acknowledge that fact?

Hell cannot kill us all, face it. Do you live in fear?

I understand it better than you do.

So far that is like saying a dark room is the brightest place on earth.

You can't even comprehend how physical martyrdom has nothing to do iwth the gates of hell prevailing against the church.

Stopping the church from preaching and meeting and etc is the name of the game here for the forces of hell if they could. Not just killing believers. They cannot do that. So I thumb my nose at them!

If the entire church was lead to fall away from the faith, then you could say that the gates of hell have prevailed against it, but that isn't going to happen.

Relax. The church is protected. The only 'church' left here on earth will be the evil dark phony pretend name only church. They will not be protected by God!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read the OP. The church cannot be destroyed and scattered and totally killed etc etc. The saints after we leave can be to a large extent as the devil has power over the world at that time.

You're just making things up. The gates of hell will never prevail against the church because Jesus said so (Matthew 16:18). The church does not ever need to be taken off of the earth in order for that to be the case. You are making that up.

No. When the church is gone the saints are not part of the church.

LOL. This can't be taken seriously. The church consists of those who belong to Christ. You are saying these saints who supposedly would be on the earth after the rapture won't belong to Christ?

The saints in the old testament like Moses etc etc etc are not part of it either. Your argument is defeated.

This is foolish. You have no scripture to support anything you're saying. Old Testament saints belong to Christ every bit as much as we do and they are in His church as well. You obviously don't even understand what the church is.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

No, YOUR argument is defeated.

It says so shall we ever be with the Lord. We know that we will be with Him where He is. He is in heaven and will be until the end of the tribulation.

LOL. He won't be in heaven at that point, He will be "in the air". You are just making things up.

False. We have several years and a marriage supper and lots of things happening in that time. Nothing like some yo yo theory foolishness where Jesus stops in a cloud on His way to the mount of Olives and raises up all believers to meet Him there. Then immediately they all fly back down to earth!!! What screaming lunacy.

Total nonsense. Show me any scripture that describes the marriage supper taking place in heaven. Good luck.

Read Jude sometime then. He returns with His saints. Enoch knew that much some 5000 years ago or so!

Yes, with their souls. That's what 1 Thess 4:14 is referring to when it says them which sleep in Jesus will be with Him when He comes.

None. Notice the wicked are not all destroyed in the tribulation?? What a false argument and strawman.

Define your terms. I'm talking about the wrath that occurs when Jesus returns unexpectedly like a thief in the night, as described in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. How can anyone survive that? Paul even specifically says "they shall not escape".

Have you never read about the tribulation? Lots of destruction then. Maybe even a limited nuclear war!

LOL. All you have is speculation. That is the foundation of your doctrine.

In any case, there are wars and a dictatorship worldwide and a third of mankind killed early on, with much more killed later on etc etc. Of course sudden destruction comes when we leave! Not total destruction though of course.

Paul said that when the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns, arrives, it will bring "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape. Peter describes that same thing in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and describes the burning up of the entire earth. So, explain to me how any mortals can survive that?

Who? Escape what? You seem to imagine some total death or something you made up. They shall not escape the tribulation! Nor a lot of destruction, some of which probably comes at the time He takes us away.

Are these passages not in your Bible? You are incredibly ignorant. Please read the New Testament.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Am I making this up? Clearly, the reason that Paul said "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur when Jesus comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night is because the entire earth will be burned up at that point.

False. That is not the Rapture by any stretch of the imagination. The day of the Lord includes the millennium and when that is over the world is destroyed. Not before.

You're making that up. Read 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 and show me where they teach that it "includes the millennium".

Here you openly show how you conflated the start of the tribulation with the end of the 1000 years. Thanks for that.

You are completely ignorant of what passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 teach, that's for sure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What happens to some person is not relevant to the issue of the church being protected from being overcome. Nor can we limit the scope of what hell means to death! There is an underworld that has real beings and powers that really would like to kill us all and stop us from preaching if they were allowed. They are not allowed. Not now. That power is not given to them now.

You are being shown that the gates of hell prevailing against the church have nothing to do with physical martyrdom. They can kill our bodies, but not our souls. I guess that doesn't mean anything to you.

Hell cannot kill us all, face it. Do you live in fear?

LOL. I didn't say it can. It won't. But, I was talking about what would be true even if it could. It would have nothing to do with the gates of hell supposedly prevailing against us. The church doesn't cease to exist if its members are physically dead. That's what you're not getting.

Stopping the church from preaching and meeting and etc is the name of the game here for the forces of hell if they could. Not just killing believers. They cannot do that. So I thumb my nose at them!

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, so they won't. End of story. But, the church does not need to be removed from the earth in order for that to be the case. That's what you're missing. God is quite capable of keeping some in the church alive and protected on the earth if that's what He wants without having to remove the church from the earth.

Relax. The church is protected. The only 'church' left here on earth will be the evil dark phony pretend name only church. They will not be protected by God!

Nonsense! Any true believers on the earth at that time would be part of the church since every person who belongs to Christ is part of the church. You are just making things up.

 

[Marty fox]

Who cares? The church is not one group of people in one city or town. That sort of thing is what we call persecution.

I have no idea of what you mean here but if you say who cares about the persecuted church then I don't care to know either.

 

[dad]

You're just making things up. The gates of hell will never prevail against the church because Jesus said so (Matthew 16:18). The church does not ever need to be taken off of the earth in order for that to be the case. You are making that up.

Yes, unless the prophesies of the end are false, they cannot go together.

The church consists of those who belong to Christ. You are saying these saints who supposedly would be on the earth after the rapture won't belong to Christ?

No, the church started with Jesus and Peter remember? Noah was not in the church.

Old Testament saints belong to Christ every bit as much as we do and they are in His church as well. You obviously don't even understand what the church is.

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Nothing of course in there about the church at all. Jesus had not come in the old testament time. The church was started at a certain time by Jesus. Yes there were believers in the old testament and yea they were saved by belief that Jesus would come one day. The saints on earth in the tribulation after the church is gone will also be saved by belief in Jesus! That does not mean they are the church

No, YOUR argument is defeated.

As you have learned my arguments actually have conquered yours without even getting out of breath.

LOL. He won't be in heaven at that point, He will be "in the air". You are just making things up.

What point? The point when we are Raptured to be in the air with Him, of course we all will be in the air. Jesus will not return (or us) to earth again till after the tribulation is over. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, as Jesus said.

Total nonsense. Show me any scripture that describes the marriage supper taking place in heaven. Good luck.

Show me any it happens anywhere else!

Yes, with their souls. That's what 1 Thess 4:14 is referring to when it says them which sleep in Jesus will be with Him when He comes.

Great, so that is the folks coming with Him to earth. Of course they will receive their bodies also along with the rest of the dead that are raised up and the living! One big party.

Define your terms. I'm talking about the wrath that occurs when Jesus returns unexpectedly like a thief in the night, as described in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

No one knows when the Rapture is. The world will still be here then. The tribulation is the wrath.

How can anyone survive that? Paul even specifically says "they shall not escape".

Read the bible man does survive the tribulation.

Paul said that when the day of the Lord, which is the day Christ returns, arrives, it will bring "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape.

As it will. Lots of destruction. As I said, early on a third of mankind is killed. It gets worse from there. Much worse. That is over years. Not all over afternoon tea, sorry.

Peter describes that same thing in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and describes the burning up of the entire earth. So, explain to me how any mortals can survive that?

Easy, that is not till the end of the 1000 years. That is when the day of the Lord ends. Not before the tribulation!

Clearly, the reason that Paul said "they shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that will occur when Jesus comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night is because the entire earth will be burned up at that point.

No nothing like that whatsoever.

You're making that up. Read 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 and show me where they teach that it "includes the millennium".


You are completely ignorant of what passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 teach, that's for sure.

You grow boring repeating your conflated misunderstanding of all prophesy, trying to roll it all into one burrito. That is a lack of understanding. Better stick to the topic rather than offer a buffet of misconceptions.

 

[dad]

I have no idea of what you mean here but if you say who cares about the persecuted church then I don't care to know either.

Any and all persecutions of the church have never overcome it. Obviously.