Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Douggg]

To try to claim that a passage that specifically refers to "the coming of the Lord", as 1 Thess 4:14-17 does, is not referring to the second coming is pure nonsense and utterly ludicrous. You can't expect to be taken seriously when you basically say that the future "coming of the Lord" is not the second coming of the Lord.

Your posts are nothing more than emotional outbursts.

I asked you...

In Matthew 24:30, what is the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven ?


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[MA2444]

In Matthew 24:30, what is the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven ?

I think I know! But instead of saying what it is, I'll leave you two to your discussion. ;)

 

[IndianaRob]

I think I know! But instead of saying what it is, I'll leave you two to your discussion. ;)

I’d like to know what you think it is.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. What would you call new believers that come to be after we are raptured? In the verses you cite it calls them saints.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


Nothing to do with the church

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The new believers in the tribulation. Not the long gone church


Utterly false. If we meet Jesus in the air and be where He is, as He promised, that is not staying on the ground/earth.

When Jesus spoke no man had ascended into heaven, that has ZERO to do with when He promised to return and how we would be where He is. No connection, even remotely. For someone to state it is the same, and do so in a self righteous and matter of absolute fact way is very telling.

The entire church is not the bride. Roughly half are left behind as declared in the Bible.
Those are the martyrs in heaven depicted as the innumerable number.

 

[ewq1938]

The church started in Jesus' day and there is no church mentioned after the tribulation begins.

Two churches are mentioned in Rev 11 which is near the end of the trib so they are very much in the trib, along with members of the Church such as the two prophets and all those who are killed for their testimony of Jesus.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth. They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints". Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.


Is Pre-trib correct that the church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
Is Pre-trib correct that the church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins? No, Pre-trib is wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your posts are nothing more than emotional outbursts.

Your nonsense never ceases to amaze me. I can't help reacting the way I do to your nonsense and your constant twisting of scripture. Everyone can see it. You deny that "the coming of the Lord" referenced in 1 Thess 4:14-17 is the second coming. That is just absolutely ridiculous. There's no other way to describe it. But, I back up what I say with scripture, and you know it, so you're obviously not correct to say my posts are nothing more than emotional outbursts.

I asked you...

In Matthew 24:30, what is the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven ?


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

You didn't address what I said in post #53 and you often don't address my points or answer my questions, but you expect me to address all of your points and questions . That's a double standard.

Nonetheless, I'll answer your question, anyway.

I believe the sign of the Son of man in heaven is Jesus Himself coming in the clouds of heaven who I believe refer to His angels (Daniel 7:13). The disciples asked what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. There is no particular sign that will tell us ahead of time that it's the day of His coming. He said no one knows the day or hour of His coming (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13). So, the sign is Jesus Himself with His angels. He will appear unexpectedly like a thief in the night (Matt 24:42-44, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 16:15). So, there's no sign of His coming ahead of time that tells us when He is coming until Jesus Himself appears with His angels.

 

[Douggg]

I believe the sign of the Son of man in heaven is Jesus Himself coming in the clouds of heaven who I believe refer to His angels (Daniel 7:13). The disciples asked what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. There is no particular sign that will tell us ahead of time that it's the day of His coming.

The sign of the Son of man in heaven in Matthew 24:30 is before - and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Go to the sixth seal event in Revelation 6.12-17. The sign of the Son of man in heaven will be Jesus, sickle in hand, prepared to execute judgment on the wicked of the world for martyring the Great Tribulation saints. That Jesus has a sickle in His hand is from Revelation 14:14.

The wicked men of the world will mourn - oh no, the wrath of the Lamb has come.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So the kings of the earth react by gathering their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war of Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. 45 days between the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven - and then His descent down to earth coming with power and great glory.

 

[MA2444]

Ok, he answered and that's not a bad answer!

But what is the firdt thing they will see?
The sign of the Son of Man...

WHat's that? (Duh?)

The Cross. They'll see a giant cross lit up in the sky before He gets here...!

Now I may or may not be correct. But I think I probably am right!

 

[dad]

The entire church is not the bride. Roughly half are left behind as declared in the Bible.
Those are the martyrs in heaven depicted as the innumerable number.

No idea what you are talking about. Where does it say half of the saved are left behind? Ha Do not pretend that is 'in the bible' When you say "Those" are... what are you referring to? Those folks in the end who were killed for their faith were...what exactly?

 

[dad]

Two churches are mentioned in Rev 11 which is near the end of the trib so they are very much in the trib, along with members of the Church such as the two prophets and all those who are killed for their testimony of Jesus.

? You thought those seven churches were here at the end of the great tribulation? It says to the churches which ARE in....not 'will be one day far in the future'

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The seven here are seven churches. It is interesting how the two witnesses are also called candlesticks. A candle brings light, in this case from God. I am not sure how you can call one person a 'church'? (or 2 people 2 churches)

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

What does that mean? How can a church be part of a person?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Correct, here it is clear they are 2 people.

The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

It does not say a tree is part of people. It gives these two gentlemen a descriptive name, 'olive trees'.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Right, Jews.

They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints".

In rev 7 the wrath already has begun. The chapter starts this way 7 And after these things I saw-- The verse before that is this
17 For the great Day of His wrath is come--

Why do you say they are sealed before this?

Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.

It says most do not repent. That indicates men could repent. Why waste time preaching if they could not?

Is Pre-trib correct that the church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.

Except that you called single people a church! Was that so you could claim the church was still here?

 

[IndianaRob]

Ok, he answered and that's not a bad answer!

But what is the firdt thing they will see?
The sign of the Son of Man...

WHat's that? (Duh?)

The Cross. They'll see a giant cross lit up in the sky before He gets here...!

Now I may or may not be correct. But I think I probably am right!

Gods plan is written in the stars.

The sign of the son of Man was the sun rising in the ecliptic through the constellation Pisces. The two fishes, the “Christian Age”.

 

[MA2444]

Gods plan is written in the stars.

The sign of the son of Man was the sun rising in the ecliptic through the constellation Pisces. The two fishes, the “Christian Age”.

I'll buy that it's written in the stars somehow because nothing is too hard for God and He does stuff like that in my experience.

Where'd you hear that about the two fishes? Pisces Constellation? I never heard that one. I'm not in into Astrology but I wouldnt mind reading about it if you have a link...What makes the Piscies Constellation the sign of the Son of Man?

 

[ewq1938]

? You thought those seven churches were here at the end of the great tribulation? It says to the churches which ARE in....not 'will be one day far in the future'

I spoke of the TWO CHURCHES in Rev 11 which are there during the trib. Your claim the church is not in the trib is wrong.

 

[dad]

I spoke of the TWO CHURCHES in Rev 11 which are there during the trib. Your claim the church is not in the trib is wrong.

Except the two people (witnesses) are not churches they are men. 2 men. So forget telling anyone they are wrong.

 

[ewq1938]

Except the two people (witnesses) are not churches they are men. 2 men. So forget telling anyone they are wrong.

You are still wrong. The two prophets (two olive trees) are two men, but the other part of the two witnesses are two churches as candlesticks represent churches.

 

[Douggg]

You are still wrong. The two prophets (two olive trees) are two men, but the other part of the two witnesses are two churches as candlesticks represent churches.

The two witnesses when overcome by the beast will lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. How could that be speaking about two church's ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Think about it. The church in heaven is not in need of protection. The verse obviously applied to earth.

False. Once the power of a holy people is scattered and they cannot do what they were set up to do, preach the good news to mankind, then the world prevails against them.

No one said it was. The church is not 'a believer'.

That is ignoring the power and spirit of the promise and spiritualizing it away. Unbelief, in other words.

According to the Bible those Left Behind are not protected either they're martyred. They are killed by the devil just like all the apostles except John. So there is no post tribulation rapture because it says in the Bible every man woman and child receive the mark That's every man woman and child on the planet received the mark and it says except those written in the Lambs Book of Life. So anybody refusing is executed. The Bible teaches pre-tribulation Rapture in most every single dynamic

 

[rebuilder 454]

No idea what you are talking about. Where does it say half of the saved are left behind? Ha Do not pretend that is 'in the bible' When you say "Those" are... what are you referring to? Those folks in the end who were killed for their faith were...what exactly?

Mat 25 and 24 have half left behind. 1/2 of a group are left behind.
What group is it?
Think about it.
What group ISN'T it?
Think about it.
Not all Christians are the bride.
All are saved...but not all the bride.

Can you quote the 2cescape verses Jesus cited?
Those 2 verses DIRECTLY point to the ones worthy. (The bride taken in the rapture vs those nominal shallow Christians. Those foolish believers are saved, but do not leave in the rapture)
The rapture is NOT the gathering of Christians per se. It is the gathering of the bride.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Once a person gets the view of heaven, all eschatology becomes vivid.
That correct view is the bride and bride groom.
A huge percentage of the church, are completely oblivious to that dynamic. It would really seem almost impossible to miss the heart of Heaven and the entire point of the tribulation. And the entire point of the rapture. In fact most pre-tribbers have no idea what's going on with the bride, and the bridegroom,and God's purpose in both ,and God's purpose in the Jew, and God's purpose in the GT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I spoke of the TWO CHURCHES in Rev 11 which are there during the trib. Your claim the church is not in the trib is wrong.

Millions martyred DURING the trib . All believers martyred during the trib.
No such thing as a postrib rapture.
The very assumption of it is eliminated.
Totally debunked by the bible.