Predestinated to Salvation !

[Rightglory]

It was a pattern on how God saves sinners.

Which has nothing to do with the questions I asked. Just more irrelevant nonsense. Can you answer he questions?

 

[brightfame52]

Which has nothing to do with the questions I asked. Just more irrelevant nonsense. Can you answer he questions?

It was a pattern on how God saves sinners.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It was a pattern on how God saves sinners.

It may well have been “a pattern of how God saves sinners”, because Saul of Tarsus was foremost in his persecution and murder of Christians, and was on his way to round up more when he had an encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus.

So, was Paul coerced or forced to become a Christian? He had a deep seated hatred for those whom he assumed were led by apostate disciples of the now dead Jesus Christ, and could have lacked the humility to engage in a 360 degree turn around. Jesus knew he was a zealous man, but had to redirect that zeal towards the truth.

By his own admission Paul said to Timothy…..
”I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who imparted power to me, because he considered me faithful by assigning me to a ministry, 13  although formerly I was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and with a lack of faith. 14  But the undeserved kindness of our Lord abounded exceedingly along with faith and the love that is in Christ Jesus. 15  This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these, I am foremost. 16  Nevertheless, I was shown mercy so that by means of me as the foremost case, Christ Jesus might demonstrate all his patience, making me an example to those who are going to rest their faith on him for everlasting life.” (1 Tim 1:12-16)

Why was Paul, of all men, “a chosen vessel” for a special assignment?
He was appointed as “an apostle to the nations”, so not one of the 12……he was very different to the other apostles in that he alone was a former Pharisee and a well educated man, which gave his words more power to the people to whom he preached. Especially was this true of the educated Greek philosophers who would not have considered listening to uneducated men. Paul’s speech at the Areopagus was masterful. (Acts 17:22-34)

The disciples were at first, wary of him as he had a bad reputation, but soon realized that this man was on a special assignment from Jesus himself. He would endure much persecution and hardship as Jesus warned him about what he would suffer.

Paul saw all that he endured for Christ’s sake as trying to make up for all the harm he had inflicted on his brethren, in his ignorance…..but Jesus assured him that his sins were forgiven. His ministry was very powerful. He became a much loved apostle.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

Your view of predestination, the elect, were saved from before the foundation of the world

I wont be answering your questions all the time so dont get use to this.

Yes the elect were saved before the foundation of the world, in what is called the eternal phase of Salvation 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

. If certain people, the elect, are saved. what are they saved from?

Condemnation, death, hell, their sins

And what is the purpose of Christ coming to save them, when they are already saved?

All phases of their Salvation were contingent upon His coming in time to pay their sin debt as their surety Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Also, in your view what happens to the non-elect?

They will be judged in and for their sins and be cast into the lake of fire Rev 20:13-15

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Thats what the elect are saved from !

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes the elect were saved before the foundation of the world, in what is called the eternal phase of Salvation 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You still cling to the notion that God predetermined all humans to either be saved or condemned.
So what was the point of free will? What was the point of the TKGE? What was the point of the preaching work that Jesus assigned for all his disciples? All of these things required a choice…..if we are all either saved or condemned to hell, what was to point of giving humans and angels choices?
Did the devil have a choice to rebel, or was he predestinated to do what he did?
This paints a very ugly picture of God…..he planned it all….the suffering and the tragedy…the death of loved ones and the grief that follows…..are you serious? Have you thought this through?

Condemnation, death, hell, their sins
Also, in your view what happens to the non-elect?

Was death planned? Was hell planned? Was sin planned?
Go to Genesis and see that none of those things were held out as the plan of God…..just the opposite.
There were choices made that resulted in what took place. Different choices would have resulted in different outcomes.
* What if satan had had second thoughts about what he was planning, as he watched what was going on in the garden with Adam and his new wife….
* What if the woman had not been deceived by the devil disguised as a snake and refused to eat of the fruit?
* What if Adam had refused his wife’s offer and obeyed his God instead?

Free will left all those options opened and God would have responded accordingly to any one of them.
God did not determine their future….they did.

They will be judged in and for their sins and be cast into the lake of fire Rev 20:13-15

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Thats what the elect are saved from !

Have you really read and understood what those words mean?

Is the “lake of fire” a real place where God tortures conscious souls forever in eternal torment?
Or is the lake of fire symbolic? It is also called “the second death”, so how does the destiny of one suffering the second death, differ from those who experience the first kind of death.…the one inherited form Adam?
Have you even investigated these questions?
Look again at the Scripture you quoted….”death and hell (hades)” were cast into this place. Is it possible to throw death and hades into a literal lake of fire…..or is this a symbol of everlasting destruction?

If we go back in time to Jeremiah’s day, Israel were doing the unthinkable! They were sacrificing their children in the fire to the god Molech, and God’s reaction was that he was appalled at them doing this heinous thing!
What did he say?
Jeremiah 32:30-35….
”‘For the people of Israel and of Judah have done only what was bad in my eyes, from their youth on; the people of Israel keep offending me by the work of their hands,’ declares Jehovah. 31 ‘For this city, from the day that they built it down to this day, has been nothing but a cause of anger and wrath to me, so that it must be removed from before my face, 32 because of all the evil that the people of Israel and of Judah have done to offend me—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, and the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 They kept turning their backs to me, not their faces; although I tried to teach them again and again, none of them would listen to receive discipline. 34 And they put their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 35 Furthermore, they built the high places of Baʹal in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Moʹlech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing, causing Judah to sin.’”

Do you know where the idea of “hellfire” came from?
The place where the Israelites were sacrificing their children was the Valley of Hinnom, which was just outside the walls of Jerusalem, and God decreed that what they were practicing must stop!
It thereafter became a garbage dump, which the Jews knew was called “Gehenna“.…..this place now received the city’s refuse along with the carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals, deemed unworthy of a decent burial and hence had no grave marked with their name and lineage.

Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish, so anyone who was cast into ”Gehenna” was not deemed worthy of a resurrection, which was the only thing Jews believed about death. There was no immortal soul to suffer consciously after death, (Eccl 9:5, 10) only a resurrection back to life….or the place that represented eternal death….with no resurrection possible….that was “the second death”……everlasting death is all the wicked would suffer. There is no hell of eternal torment…all satanic lies!

What kind of a fiendish God do you worship?

 

[brightfame52]

You still cling to the notion that God predetermined all humans to either be saved or condemned.
So what was the point of free will? What was the point of the TKGE? What was the point of the preaching work that Jesus assigned for all his disciples? All of these things required a choice…..if we are all either saved or condemned to hell, what was to point of giving humans and angels choices?
Did the devil have a choice to rebel, or was he predestinated to do what he did?
This paints a very ugly picture of God…..he planned it all….the suffering and the tragedy…the death of loved ones and the grief that follows…..are you serious? Have you thought this through?

Was death planned? Was hell planned? Was sin planned?
Go to Genesis and see that none of those things were held out as the plan of God…..just the opposite.
There were choices made that resulted in what took place. Different choices would have resulted in different outcomes.
* What if satan had had second thoughts about what he was planning, as he watched what was going on in the garden with Adam and his new wife….
* What if the woman had not been deceived by the devil disguised as a snake and refused to eat of the fruit?
* What if Adam had refused his wife’s offer and obeyed his God instead?

Free will left all those options opened and God would have responded accordingly to any one of them.
God did not determine their future….they did.

Have you really read and understood what those words mean?

Is the “lake of fire” a real place where God tortures conscious souls forever in eternal torment?
Or is the lake of fire symbolic? It is also called “the second death”, so how does the destiny of one suffering the second death, differ from those who experience the first kind of death.…the one inherited form Adam?
Have you even investigated these questions?
Look again at the Scripture you quoted….”death and hell (hades)” were cast into this place. Is it possible to throw death and hades into a literal lake of fire…..or is this a symbol of everlasting destruction?

If we go back in time to Jeremiah’s day, Israel were doing the unthinkable! They were sacrificing their children in the fire to the god Molech, and God’s reaction was that he was appalled at them doing this heinous thing!
What did he say?
Jeremiah 32:30-35….
”‘For the people of Israel and of Judah have done only what was bad in my eyes, from their youth on; the people of Israel keep offending me by the work of their hands,’ declares Jehovah. 31 ‘For this city, from the day that they built it down to this day, has been nothing but a cause of anger and wrath to me, so that it must be removed from before my face, 32 because of all the evil that the people of Israel and of Judah have done to offend me—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, and the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 They kept turning their backs to me, not their faces; although I tried to teach them again and again, none of them would listen to receive discipline. 34 And they put their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 35 Furthermore, they built the high places of Baʹal in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Moʹlech, something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing, causing Judah to sin.’”

Do you know where the idea of “hellfire” came from?
The place where the Israelites were sacrificing their children was the Valley of Hinnom, which was just outside the walls of Jerusalem, and God decreed that what they were practicing must stop!
It thereafter became a garbage dump, which the Jews knew was called “Gehenna“.…..this place now received the city’s refuse along with the carcasses of dead animals as well as the bodies of executed criminals, deemed unworthy of a decent burial and hence had no grave marked with their name and lineage.

Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the rubbish, so anyone who was cast into ”Gehenna” was not deemed worthy of a resurrection, which was the only thing Jews believed about death. There was no immortal soul to suffer consciously after death, (Eccl 9:5, 10) only a resurrection back to life….or the place that represented eternal death….with no resurrection possible….that was “the second death”……everlasting death is all the wicked would suffer. There is no hell of eternal torment…all satanic lies!

What kind of a fiendish God do you worship?

You will have your fiendish questions answered in the Day of Judgment.

 

[brightfame52]

It may well have been “a pattern of how God saves sinners”, because Saul of Tarsus was foremost in his persecution and murder of Christians, and was on his way to round up more when he had an encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus.

So, was Paul coerced or forced to become a Christian? He had a deep seated hatred for those whom he assumed were led by apostate disciples of the now dead Jesus Christ, and could have lacked the humility to engage in a 360 degree turn around. Jesus knew he was a zealous man, but had to redirect that zeal towards the truth.

By his own admission Paul said to Timothy…..
”I am grateful to Christ Jesus our Lord, who imparted power to me, because he considered me faithful by assigning me to a ministry, 13  although formerly I was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insolent man. Nevertheless, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and with a lack of faith. 14  But the undeserved kindness of our Lord abounded exceedingly along with faith and the love that is in Christ Jesus. 15  This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these, I am foremost. 16  Nevertheless, I was shown mercy so that by means of me as the foremost case, Christ Jesus might demonstrate all his patience, making me an example to those who are going to rest their faith on him for everlasting life.” (1 Tim 1:12-16)

Why was Paul, of all men, “a chosen vessel” for a special assignment?
He was appointed as “an apostle to the nations”, so not one of the 12……he was very different to the other apostles in that he alone was a former Pharisee and a well educated man, which gave his words more power to the people to whom he preached. Especially was this true of the educated Greek philosophers who would not have considered listening to uneducated men. Paul’s speech at the Areopagus was masterful. (Acts 17:22-34)

The disciples were at first, wary of him as he had a bad reputation, but soon realized that this man was on a special assignment from Jesus himself. He would endure much persecution and hardship as Jesus warned him about what he would suffer.

Paul saw all that he endured for Christ’s sake as trying to make up for all the harm he had inflicted on his brethren, in his ignorance…..but Jesus assured him that his sins were forgiven. His ministry was very powerful. He became a much loved apostle.

Paul's salvation conversion It was a pattern on how God saves sinners. 1 Tim 1:13-16


13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Did Saul's unbelief and ignorance prevent Christ from saving him ?

 

[Hobie]

No one is predestined to salvation, and no one is predestined to go to hell.

Now, the believer, once they are "in Christ" are predestined to be "conformed into the image of God's Son."""

So, the way to understand this.. is that many things are predestined for the Christian, after they become one "in Christ"... first.
And to become born again, in Christ, is based on the person giving God THEIR faith, in Christ.......to God....first.
And that is free will..........its your choice.

Tulip Heads, the Hyper Calvinists, "predestine you to believe" and God does not......>He requires it, from you., because its YOUR Faith.

Very true, it is one of the misunderstood stumbling blocks that throw Christians off, that they do not have a choice in life, they are in a charade, and nothing they do will change it. Satan loves this lie, what's worse it is used by those who should know the truth to destroy others faith, well was Eve given no choice and forced to sin, think that one through..

 

[brightfame52]

Very true, it is one of the misunderstood stumbling blocks that throw Christians off, that they do not have a choice in life, they are in a charade, and nothing they do will change it. Satan loves this lie, what's worse it is used by those who should know the truth to destroy others faith, well was Eve given no choice and forced to sin, think that one through..

Eve wasnt forced to sin, but she was predestinated to sin, Gods purpose required it.

 

[Behold]

You speaking against Gospel Truths

Calvinism, and especially the "TULIP" HyperCalvinism, "the 5 points"... is not gospel truth, its "doctrine of devils".

In fact, when you teach the "L" in Tulip Theology....you are committing blasphemy, because the "L" in Tulip, is a Cross Offending Lie.

 

[Rightglory]

@Rightglory



I wont be answering your questions all the time so dont get use to this.

Yes the elect were saved before the foundation of the world, in what is called the eternal phase of Salvation 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



Condemnation, death, hell, their sins

Man cannot be condemned twice. Your theology, respective of non-elect leaves them still under the curse of death through Adam. Which is permanent death. Your theology has no provision for their freedom from that curse.

All phases of their Salvation were contingent upon His coming in time to pay their sin debt as their surety Heb 7:22

How could they have a sin debt. They were saved, past tense, from the foundation of the world. What they do has no bearing on anything such as salvation. Sins are irrelevant. Salvation from what?
This is why your theology is so incongruent with scripture.

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.



They will be judged in and for their sins and be cast into the lake of fire Rev 20:13-15

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Thats what the elect are saved from !

If your theology is carried out based on scripture it does not even recognize the Incarnation of Christ, nor His resurrection.
You hold that Christ took on the seed of Abraham, rather than human nature as Heb 2:14 states. Your theology does not recognize the resurrection of Christ since you believe not all men will be raised from death. You leave the non-elect still under the curse of death through Adam.
I Cor 15:12-22. If all the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised. Thus vs 17 makes your idea of elect-only completely futile.

 

[Rightglory]

Eve wasnt forced to sin, but she was predestinated to sin, Gods purpose required it.

This is why your theology makes no sense. This statement is totally illogical, nonsensical.

 

[brightfame52]

Calvinism, and especially the "TULIP" HyperCalvinism, "the 5 points"... is not gospel truth, its "doctrine of devils".

In fact, when you teach the "L" in Tulip Theology....you are committing blasphemy, because the "L" in Tulip, is a Cross Offending Lie.

Yeah Tulip is the Gospel and you speak against it, not good in light of the 2nd coming

 

[brightfame52]

Man cannot be condemned twice. Your theology, respective of non-elect leaves them still under the curse of death through Adam. Which is permanent death. Your theology has no provision for their freedom from that curse.

How could they have a sin debt. They were saved, past tense, from the foundation of the world. What they do has no bearing on anything such as salvation. Sins are irrelevant. Salvation from what?
This is why your theology is so incongruent with scripture.

If your theology is carried out based on scripture it does not even recognize the Incarnation of Christ, nor His resurrection.
You hold that Christ took on the seed of Abraham, rather than human nature as Heb 2:14 states. Your theology does not recognize the resurrection of Christ since you believe not all men will be raised from death. You leave the non-elect still under the curse of death through Adam.
I Cor 15:12-22. If all the dead are not raised, then Christ is not raised. Thus vs 17 makes your idea of elect-only completely futile.

Okay, so you see I answered your questions, dont expect that very often

 

[brightfame52]

This is why your theology makes no sense. This statement is totally illogical, nonsensical.

Spiritual Truths are foolishness to the natural man 1 Cor 2:14

 

[Aunty Jane]

You will have your fiendish questions answered in the Day of Judgment.

“Fiendish questions”? The questions presented to you are Bible based and Bible explained. The fact that you cannot answer them tells me that you don’t want to know, because the answers disagree with your idea of predestination. God has predestined nothing concerning man’s choices….he responds to them within his own clearly stated purpose. You don’t seem to know the difference.…nor do you understand free will.

Paul's salvation conversion It was a pattern on how God saves sinners. 1 Tim 1:13-16

It was an excellent example of God’s forgiveness…..he knew that Saul was a zealous man and Jesus came to him personally to re direct it…..yet Saul could have exhibited a stubborn pride, commonly seen in the sect he was raised in…yet his humility and repentance shone through in his acceptance of the one he thought was the enemy of his faith.
But the man who became the apostle Paul, was chosen for a reason…..he was by birth, not like his fellow apostles at all. He was raised as a Pharisee, educated at their schools, equipped with a good command of the Scriptures and a Roman citizen to boot. All these things made his assignment as “an apostle to the nations” a really good choice. The ‘reader of hearts’ knew that he could be exactly what the gentiles needed to be persuaded to come to Christ.

Eve wasnt forced to sin, but she was predestinated to sin, Gods purpose required it.

What utter nonsense! The Scriptures tell us that she was “thoroughly deceived” by the devil. (1 Tim 2:13-14) She made a choice after believing a lie….could you not be doing the same? The devil has no new tricks because the old ones still work so well for him. (2 Cor 4:3-3)

What was God’s purpose in putting humans on this planet in the first place? Do you even know?

Spiritual Truths are foolishness to the natural man 1 Cor 2:14

We first of all have to know what a spiritual truth is. If you study the Bible itself, it will answer all questions. It will substantiate all that is truth……unlike the counterfeit “Christianity” sown by God’s adversary, there are no contradictions in Scripture….only in men’s interpretation of it.

Examine all things with an open heart and mind…..the devil has a way of making the truth seem like a lie and vice versa….remember that it was members of Jesus own faith who murdered him…..it was those who claimed to worship the same God who persecuted his apostles and disciples….history repeats because humans never change and neither does the devil. (John 15:18-21)

Your one liners simply show that you have no substantive answers, but stubbornly follow the lies that others have convinced you is truth. Examine the evidence…don’t just dig your heels in assuming that you cannot be wrong. Men created the great divide in Christianity….not God. His spirit unites his people…it does not divide them. (1 Cor 1:10)

 

[brightfame52]

“Fiendish questions”? The questions presented to you are Bible based and Bible explained. The fact that you cannot answer them tells me that you don’t want to know, because the answers disagree with your idea of predestination. God has predestined nothing concerning man’s choices….he responds to them within his own clearly stated purpose. You don’t seem to know the difference.…nor do you understand free will.

It was an excellent example of God’s forgiveness…..he knew that Saul was a zealous man and Jesus came to him personally to re direct it…..yet Saul could have exhibited a stubborn pride, commonly seen in the sect he was raised in…yet his humility and repentance shone through in his acceptance of the one he thought was the enemy of his faith.
But the man who became the apostle Paul, was chosen for a reason…..he was by birth, not like his fellow apostles at all. He was raised as a Pharisee, educated at their schools, equipped with a good command of the Scriptures and a Roman citizen to boot. All these things made his assignment as “an apostle to the nations” a really good choice. The ‘reader of hearts’ knew that he could be exactly what the gentiles needed to be persuaded to come to Christ.

What utter nonsense! The Scriptures tell us that she was “thoroughly deceived” by the devil. (1 Tim 2:13-14) She made a choice after believing a lie….could you not be doing the same? The devil has no new tricks because the old ones still work so well for him. (2 Cor 4:3-3)

What was God’s purpose in putting humans on this planet in the first place? Do you even know?

We first of all have to know what a spiritual truth is. If you study the Bible itself, it will answer all questions. It will substantiate all that is truth……unlike the counterfeit “Christianity” sown by God’s adversary, there are no contradictions in Scripture….only in men’s interpretation of it.

Examine all things with an open heart and mind…..the devil has a way of making the truth seem like a lie and vice versa….remember that it was members of Jesus own faith who murdered him…..it was those who claimed to worship the same God who persecuted his apostles and disciples….history repeats because humans never change and neither does the devil. (John 15:18-21)

Your one liners simply show that you have no substantive answers, but stubbornly follow the lies that others have convinced you is truth. Examine the evidence…don’t just dig your heels in assuming that you cannot be wrong. Men created the great divide in Christianity….not God. His spirit unites his people…it does not divide them. (1 Cor 1:10)

Okay since you blew off your steam, now what ? Nothing changes what I have posted.

 

[Hobie]

Eve wasnt forced to sin, but she was predestinated to sin, Gods purpose required it.

So God was responsible for the fall of man? Of course not, predestination has been turned from God knowing what would happen, to God 'required it', the devil is truly one of the most subtle liars than any thing else out there...

 

[Ritajanice]

Eve wasnt forced to sin, but she was predestinated to sin, Gods purpose required it.

Eve had a choice though didn’t she?

He told her not to eat from the tree...she went against what he asked her to do....the enemy deceived her.

Like we do...God showed me his will in an area of my life....now, I can either choose to go with it....which I have.

Or I can go my own way....which means, I can choose to go my own way....

As a Born Again...if I went my own way...I know it would cause heartbreak ,misery and havoc.

Why....because I’m Born Again and my spirit knows it must get inline with the WILL of God.

Not my will....Gods will.....that is taught to us through the Living Spirit who indwells our heart.....has taken many, many years to understand the will of God, in my heart......I’ve had to also do my bit and stay focused on the Spirit, seeking him out with all my heart mind and soul.....ain’t no easy road...in fact...far from easy...but...it’s the only road that we can walk....as it’s life in Christ that we have......

No matter what the cost is...

 

[brightfame52]

So God was responsible for the fall of man? Of course not, predestination has been turned from God knowing what would happen, to God 'required it', the devil is truly one of the most subtle liars than any thing else out there...

Yes When Adam and Eve sinned, it was in accordance with what God willed and predetermined to happen. They did nothing which God didnt first willed to happen.